Keshiks Aren't Really Better Than Stock HA's

[dankok]

I mostly play Emperor and Immortal.

Keshiks are different from regular HA's in that they have one FS but they lose FS immunity. And of course they have no terrain movement costs so they can travel 2 titles on any terrain.

Here is the thing, against Protective Archers (have Drill I) that have 2 FS, having immunity is better than a FS of your own. So stock HA's actually get better odds against Pro Archers than Keshiks. Against normal non-Protective Archers, they get same odds so Keshiks. All in all, Keshiks are slightly weaker than the base unit against the most common AI defender.

No terrain movement cost is nice but it doesn't come into play that often. Stock HA's are also 2-move units and can often reach an AI city in the same amount of time as a Keshik. It's a nice bonus but not game-changing in SP by any stretch.

In MP Keshiks are awesome by the way. They are better at forking that any other mounted unit and since humans will build more Spearmen the FS Keshiks have will help enormously. Basically 2 Keshiks will usually kill 1 Spearmen in a city whereas stock HA's won't and that's big.

Still there is no comparison between Keshiks and Praetorians and I've seen posters go to such ridiculous lengths as to suggest Keshiks are better. Many times people overhype the Keshik but if they played another civ (especially aggressive with cheap Barracks and Stables) they would get just as much with a stock HA rush.

 

[Gumbolt]

Praets means teching or trading for IW. Against axes or walled city defences they are not great. I guess with CR2/3 it can help. 1mp attackers can be very frustrating unless you have Ai directly on your borders. In large numbers they can crush a weak AI. Protective Ai with axes are another matter. I think pults are likely needed for stronger defences.On deity the Ai will reach LB very quickly.

The movement advantage of Keshiks is amazing. The AI may not factor in they can cross jungle/forest. It also means you can pillage copper and iron resources much quicker. Reinforcements arrive much quicker too. You can steal more workers too on T1 of war.

Don't forget the Ger that replaces stable. This gives +4xp to mounted units. So you have C2 HA after 1 combat. With a barracks you have 7xp out of the blocks. First strike will be great against metal units. Spears in the open will really have 50/50 odds vs them. Of course you pick your target and have units ready to pillage.

Also consider GK has 100% chance of great generals.
Kublai Khan gets double production speed on barracks.

So the UU, the Leader and the UB all go together nicely.

One of the reason it is so good is it is early and the AI rarely have a good reply against them.

 

[dankok]

Re: Keshiks

Ger replaces Stable not Barracks. Anyways other Agg Civs also get cheap Barracks and Stables so they can get two promo like C2 HA's out of the gate as well despite 2 less XP overall. AI doesn't defend against pillagers. Other than whipping when a stack is next to its city, AI does little else to respond to a quick attack. Stock HA's can steal workers almost as well and pillage resources. If land is mostly flat, HA's are just as fast as Keshiks. Stock HA's are actually better against Pro Archers than Keshiks. That cannot be ignored.

This wasn't a thread to hate on HA in general. HA's are great units. My argument is that Keshiks are barely better than the stock version.

Re: Praets

AI never masses Axemen unless it's their UU. In MP I agree Praets are not an insane unit because humans build lots of Axemen and many are Agg on top of that and get C1 and Shock out of the gate but in SP they are so so overpowering. I can defeat 3 or 4 civs with just Praets on just about any Pangaea map on Immortal level and I am by no means a great player like some on these boards. Protective Archers and even Bowmen still have losing odds against Praetorians attacking them in cities. And Praets come before Keshiks when cultural defenses are still lower. Check the two units' average odds against (Archers) in cities. Keshiks are nowhere close to Praets in SP pwnage. Not to mention that Praets are even insanely good garrison troops after you captured the cities. 8 strength + defensive bonuses >>>

In MP I conceded that Keshiks are great but a human player will still place cities to minimize opportunity for forking. And it will build Spearmen which are more cost-effective counters for Keshiks than Axemen (at least non-Agg) are for Praets…

 

[Anysense]

Praets means teching or trading for IW.

Look at it this way: they require only IW, while HA's need Archery+HBR. That is you can tech Math, trade it for IW and start building army using math chops. Praetorian is a 8 unit at the 3/4 cost of a WE, which comes much earlier because you don't need HBR and Construction to build them. First thing that can stop them is maces, and thus they have enormous window of opportunity.

Most unique units - Keshiks included - are rather inconsequential. Their bonuses are just something nice to have, but nothing game-changing. HA aren't my choice of a mounted unit, anyway. Too weak for 50. Remember Cossacks in Vanilla? That was something. Almost as bad as Quechua or Praetorians.

 

[Kaitzilla]

A stack of Keshiks with Flanking II are immune to 1st strikes and have a 50% chance to withdrawal if they lose while attacking.

A super medic is required to make this shine.

 

[Anysense]

Flanking II + early supermedic? Imperialistic+Aggressive is a top tier combo for that. It's a pity that Mongols start with a scout. Might be a very interesting civ otherwise.

 

[Gumbolt]

I meant stables. Typo!

While hbr is not a cheap tech you at least know with AH that you have horse. Iron requires some luck.

I have used Hannibal Numidian Cav with flanking at strength 5. Theses are more than capable on immortal and even deity. Flanking 2 keshik would be very good. Wouldn't be hard to get this. Early super medics are very nice too.

Both praets and Keshik can take down multiple ai quite easily.

 

[dankok]

Assuming the players has Barracks + Ger I think the best promos for Keshiks busting AI cities are CI/Cover. Same for stock HA's if you can get Barracks + Stable built.

Both praets and Keshik can take down multiple ai quite easily.

Keshisk aren't nearly as devastating. Far far worse odds against Archers in cities and facing a bit fewer of them doesn't make up for it especially when you're attacking later with higher cultural defenses. Pro civs only make it worse and if the AI has UU's that it spams like Impis or Holkans, a Keshik rush simply won't work. Praets are also monster units in the field. They slaughter Archers, Chariots, Spears, Swords, HA's, even War Elephants out in the open and on a cost-effective basis. They are also great defensive units with 8 strength plus defensive bonuses so they can hold cities and Keshiks can't.

 

[ArchGhost]

Stock HA's are actually better against Pro Archers than Keshiks. That cannot be ignored.

Keshiks are better or equal against every other early unit compared with a stock horse archer. First strike helps them against Spears especially if combined with Flanking promos, gives them better odds against catapults, axe/swords, or elephants if they have to, etc. Combined with the no terrain penalty they are definitely better than the unit they replace as they always, always get into position as fast as they can. Same advantage that the Impi has, that makes it so much more than just a 2move spear. The AI has a difficult time handling it if abused with forking and feints.

The strikes of PRO archers outnumbering Keshiks' honestly only factors IMO because Archers are such a spammed unit in the first place. AGG on spears wouldn't factor nearly as much, for instance, as the AI only builds like a quarter the amount of spears comparably. Lets not kid ourselves, PRO archers in a position like a hill or Holy City culture are going to give anything trouble without siege, and that's exactly where retreat promos come in handy (and why the Numidian is also better than than the stock HA).

 

[pigswill]

So Keshiks are the same as HAs against normal archers, worse against protective archers and better against everything else. If you had a game full of protective civs HAs would be better, otherwise Keshiks would be better. If you include barbs Keshiks would usually have the advantage.

 

[Fippy]

Keshiks are much better than regular HAs, and yup i really mean "much".
As others mentioned, Archers are unimportant. If you face only them, you have an easy target anyways.
Actually nice that you can take Flanking II against PRO or otherwise tuff Archers, and turn their advantage into one of your own
(now you will keep 1 first strike and they have none, which means there's a high chance they always take at least some dmg)

But why do i think they are much better, well HAs are all about tactics (especially on high levels).
Saving movement time, or surprise attacks thru forests and hills, amplifies the units purpose.
Mobile and fast stacks for best abuse of AI weakness in war tactics

Being able to attack one turn faster can mean fighting 1 defender less, as easy example..
ofc such movement advantages can also lead to big "catched you off-guard" situations.

 

[dankok]

Keshiks are better or equal against every other early unit compared with a stock horse archer. First strike helps them against Spears especially if combined with Flanking promos, gives them better odds against catapults, axe/swords, or elephants if they have to, etc. Combined with the no terrain penalty they are definitely better than the unit they replace as they always, always get into position as fast as they can. Same advantage that the Impi has, that makes it so much more than just a 2move spear. The AI has a difficult time handling it if abused with forking and feints.

The strikes of PRO archers outnumbering Keshiks' honestly only factors IMO because Archers are such a spammed unit in the first place. AGG on spears wouldn't factor nearly as much, for instance, as the AI only builds like a quarter the amount of spears comparably. Lets not kid ourselves, PRO archers in a position like a hill or Holy City culture are going to give anything trouble without siege, and that's exactly where retreat promos come in handy (and why the Numidian is also better than than the stock HA).

Yes and the AI does spam Archers and thus Keshiks' relative weakness against Pro Archers and mere parity against Archers in general means they are not that strong. The mobility advantage of Keshiks is a nice boon like I mentioned but you overrate it here.

Keshiks are much better than regular HAs, and yup i really mean "much".
As others mentioned, Archers are unimportant. If you face only them, you have an easy target anyways.
Actually nice that you can take Flanking II against PRO or otherwise tuff Archers, and turn their advantage into one of your own
(now you will keep 1 first strike and they have none, which means there's a high chance they always take at least some dmg)

But why do i think they are much better, well HAs are all about tactics (especially on high levels).
Saving movement time, or surprise attacks thru forests and hills, amplifies the units purpose.
Mobile and fast stacks for best abuse of AI weakness in war tactics

Being able to attack one turn faster can mean fighting 1 defender less, as easy example..
ofc such movement advantages can also lead to big "catched you off-guard" situations.

I bet stock HA's with CI/Cover will do a better job busting Archer defended cities than FI/FII Keshiks. You probably play Deity so I'll take your opinion that Keshiks are better but I can't see them being a lot better. A bit better yes.

How often do you think a stack of Keshiks will face fewer defenders than a stack of stock HA's?

 

[Fippy]

Mounted units cannot take cover, how often did you play with them?
No offense but somebody who keeps arguing about a specific topic should know such details.

 

[Gumbolt]

I did wonder about the cover bit. 100% not available for mounted units.

If I was playing with normal HA I would go the combat route for extra strength. Sometimes with C1 and shock if the Ai has melee.

Here you can easily take a 7xp unit to a 10xp one. Especially with barbs around. So C1 and flanking 2 and first strike and immune to first strike. When your second war begins many of there units should be C2 and F2.

No one is forcing you to attack the protective Ai first. Always go for the target who you can reach their capital first and lacks metal. Once the capital falls life usually gets easier.

I normally start with 11 or so units. The first Keshik can usually scout out the AI defences while you build up your stack. I wouldn't declare on an Ai that had large numbers of units in it's capital. Timing is key. On a game I just tried come 750bc the Ai had 2 units in it's capital. Spear/sword. He whipped a bowmen. With F2 approach I lost one unit taking a 40% culture city. His final city I took had 5 defenders with 20% defence. I lost 1 units against mostly bowmen.

Now onto my second target. War chariots/HA and 1-2 archers. First target Memphis wth 40% defences and hill. First two Keshik withdrew. Rest all won. Looking to move onto his capital next. I have about 12 Keshik overall.

Biggest danger is the Egptians becoming a vassal to their powerful neighbour who also declared on them.

Overall I think this is a great UU. I am losing 26 gold a turn but 4 turns from currency. Up to 12 cities. Biggest issue is Shaka on 12 cities and Pascal on 9 with LB. He lost his stack attacking a secondary city of the Egptians. (On immortal)

 

[dankok]

Mounted units cannot take cover, how often did you play with them?
No offense but somebody who keeps arguing about a specific topic should know such details.

I don't remember the promos. I know mounted don't take CR so CI and CII works.

I used Keshiks in plenty of games. And in just about all of those games using stock HA's with another Agg leader for cheap Barracks and Stable would have let me conquer just as much. In my eyes for a UU to be elite it has to be much better than the unit it replaces.

 

[dankok]

Did some quick tests using WorldBuilder against regular and Pro Archers in cities with 50% defense (cultural + walls) with and without the city on hills. Keshiks have FI/FII and HA's have CI/CII.

vs. CGI Archers (not hill)

Keshik: Win 38.0%, Retreat 31.0%
HA: Win 67.6%, Retreat 6.5%

vs. CGI Archers (hill)

Keshik: Win 26.0%, Retreat 37.0%
HA: Win 30.8%, Retreat 13.8%

vs. CGI/CGII/DI Archers (not hill)

Keshik: Win 31.4%, Retreat 34.3%
HA: Win 36.5%, Retreat 12.7%

vs. CGI/CGII/DI Archers (hill)

Keshik: Win 13.4%, Retreat 43.3%
HA: Win 25.9%, Retreat 14.8%

Not surprisingly HA's have a better win rate and Keshiks a better overall survival rate for the most part. It depends on how much you value retreat. If you have ample amount of units retreat will reduce the attrition and let you take more cities in quick succession. Retreated units are redlined and cannot be used until several turns later so if the first wave of attacks fails to take the city you may not be able to take it at all. It really depends on circumstances. Keshiks actually did a little bit better than I expected.

 

[dankok]

I did wonder about the cover bit. 100% not available for mounted units.

If I was playing with normal HA I would go the combat route for extra strength. Sometimes with C1 and shock if the Ai has melee.

Here you can easily take a 7xp unit to a 10xp one. Especially with barbs around. So C1 and flanking 2 and first strike and immune to first strike. When your second war begins many of there units should be C2 and F2.

No one is forcing you to attack the protective Ai first. Always go for the target who you can reach their capital first and lacks metal. Once the capital falls life usually gets easier.

I normally start with 11 or so units. The first Keshik can usually scout out the AI defences while you build up your stack. I wouldn't declare on an Ai that had large numbers of units in it's capital. Timing is key. On a game I just tried come 750bc the Ai had 2 units in it's capital. Spear/sword. He whipped a bowmen. With F2 approach I lost one unit taking a 40% culture city. His final city I took had 5 defenders with 20% defence. I lost 1 units against mostly bowmen.

Now onto my second target. War chariots/HA and 1-2 archers. First target Memphis wth 40% defences and hill. First two Keshik withdrew. Rest all won. Looking to move onto his capital next. I have about 12 Keshik overall.

Biggest danger is the Egptians becoming a vassal to their powerful neighbour who also declared on them.

Overall I think this is a great UU. I am losing 26 gold a turn but 4 turns from currency. Up to 12 cities. Biggest issue is Shaka on 12 cities and Pascal on 9 with LB. He lost his stack attacking a secondary city of the Egptians. (On immortal)

Good post!

However, your Egyptian opponent is exactly a situation where stock HA's would have done just as well. War Chariots and HA's have immunity to FS so that Keshik advantage of 1 FS doesn't apply. The other two AI Shaka and Pacal are very very tough to invade with any HA type units. Impi and Holkans will cut you apart.

 

[drewisfat]

As was mentioned you can't separate the ger from the keshik. Sure the Keshik is a modest buff. But the ger is also a buff to stables. And HAs are a viable rush unit, unlike swords on deity. AND your leader will either be agg or agg+imp (Genghis). These things combine incredibly powerfully. A big point Gumbolt is making is that this is one of the few UUs good enough to make a run in more than one war. And while it does kind of require flanking 2 and a GG for a medic...... these are things you get with agg barracks, ger stables, and imp GGs. And keshiks will also do flank damage to siege and even get a bonus against trebs, things the HA doesn't get. These are minor (cuz late) but the AI may very well have catapults in the second war, and means these units will be decent support if nothing else until gunpowder.

I also think you're a little too focused on Pro archers. Unless you're being choked specifically by a Pro civ, you just ignore the Pro civs and attack others first. Secondly, fighting archers is the ideal situation. If the AI can only field archers you're going to win the war. A big goal is choking off metal to deny spears. And without metal units your units are totally safe in enemy territory even without defensive bonuses. So you can just choke down their entire civ, fork weak cities and either fight their weakest city or force them to move archers which you can catch in the open. Having no terrain penalties for faster choking or to blitz their capital before they even mobilize is huge.

Praets may be easier, but Keshiks have a greater upside potential just because they're faster. They also don't have the huge downside risk that praets have: Iron. Rushing Iron Working quickly and then finding out you don't have iron, is a tremendous, possibly game losing setback. Going for like Math first and trading for IW is safer, but means this isn't exactly a rush. You may even twiddle your thumbs here a bit waiting for an AI to be willing to trade with you and who has Alpha and IW. In the meantime, you're only masonry and construction away from catapults at this point. And catapults + Praets is not a huge improvement over attacking with catapults + anything else.
Horses are revealed by AH, which is often an essential early tech anyways. There's no risk here of rushing HBR only to find out you can't build Keshiks.

It's easier to be an "elite UU" by modesty improving a good unit than significantly improving a bad unit.

 

[dankok]

As was mentioned you can't separate the ger from the keshik. Sure the Keshik is a modest buff. But the ger is also a buff to stables. And HAs are a viable rush unit, unlike swords on deity. AND your leader will either be agg or agg+imp (Genghis). These things combine incredibly powerfully. A big point Gumbolt is making is that this is one of the few UUs good enough to make a run in more than one war. And while it does kind of require flanking 2 and a GG for a medic...... these are things you get with agg barracks, ger stables, and imp GGs. And keshiks will also do flank damage to siege and even get a bonus against trebs, things the HA doesn't get. These are minor (cuz late) but the AI may very well have catapults in the second war, and means these units will be decent support if nothing else until gunpowder.

I also think you're a little too focused on Pro archers. Unless you're being choked specifically by a Pro civ, you just ignore the Pro civs and attack others first. Secondly, fighting archers is the ideal situation. If the AI can only field archers you're going to win the war. A big goal is choking off metal to deny spears. And without metal units your units are totally safe in enemy territory even without defensive bonuses. So you can just choke down their entire civ, fork weak cities and either fight their weakest city or force them to move archers which you can catch in the open. Having no terrain penalties for faster choking or to blitz their capital before they even mobilize is huge.

Praets may be easier, but Keshiks have a greater upside potential just because they're faster. They also don't have the huge downside risk that praets have: Iron. Rushing Iron Working quickly and then finding out you don't have iron, is a tremendous, possibly game losing setback. Going for like Math first and trading for IW is safer, but means this isn't exactly a rush. You may even twiddle your thumbs here a bit waiting for an AI to be willing to trade with you and who has Alpha and IW. In the meantime, you're only masonry and construction away from catapults at this point. And catapults + Praets is not a huge improvement over attacking with catapults + anything else.
Horses are revealed by AH, which is often an essential early tech anyways. There's no risk here of rushing HBR only to find out you can't build Keshiks.

It's easier to be an "elite UU" by modesty improving a good unit than significantly improving a bad unit.

I'll take your word about Deity that HA rushes work and Sword rushes don't. Is that a consensus among Deity players? Then again, Praets are nothing like Swords. Praets are Maces without the melee bonus but much cheaper and much much much earlier.

Other traits combo like Boudica's Agg + Cha also helps stock HA rushes. We are comparing the units here not the Mongol civ to other civs. I get your point.

What do you mean by Keshiks have a greater upside potential than Praets?

If you go for Iron Working and it turns out there is no Iron (rare maybe 10% of the time?) you can often trade it to the AI. In many games you also want to research IW to clear Jungle.

 

[Fippy]

Teching and trading works differently on deity, you could i.e. always trade for IW cos it has very high priority for AIs, and they have huge headstarts and research discounts.
So we get nothing for IW in the trading game. Costs per turn will also explode with army costs and (hopefully) captured cities.
I think nobody questions that Praets can take some cities, but you cannot sit back and relax afterwards with an almost won game

HBR in comparison has good trade value, not a prio tech for most AIs.
Upside potential means that faster units can end wars sooner (or start new ones quicker), which is important if you look at recovery afterwards, or at opportunities to further use them.
Deity AIs do everything at least 3x faster than let's say Emperor AIs, this includes getting out units or teching towards military upgrades (Longbows i.e.),
so your own speed matters a lot as well.

All being said, Praets are also strong units (and there have been plenty discussions years ago how they compare to HAs).
Mostly we are saying that unit strength is not everything against AIs that are so far ahead of you early.
More losses can still be better than moving along slower, if you have a good stream of reinforcements.
It's such a deep topic that saying Praets have 8str while Keshiks have 6, so Praets > Keshiks will not do.
They could still come out ahead in some games, but def. not always.