Khmer First Look

[Rup]

Being from SE it astonished me .
Khmer is a very important civilization.

 

[AnonymousSpeed]

No, her name was Cleopatra, you should be fired for being dumb and bad at you job.

Civ6 seems to value name recognition (not just with leaders, but with its general design philosophy). I personally don't mind this. It keeps the roster interesting, with choices you wouldn't really pick. It's also not like Cleopatra or King Tut are famous for their administrations.

But enough about Cleopatra's bosom, let's talk about Jayavarman's. Like his civ's abilities, they aren't nearly as interesting as what they're stacked up against.

I don't like to build aqueducts most of the time and Holy Sites are just bad. The culture bomb is neat and the UB giving the Martyr promotion to Missionaries is actually really cool, but none of that seems powerful enough to actually incentivize me to build the necessary districts. The actual yield bonuses aren't even that good. One housing from a Holy Site? The single amenity is the best thing they get and even then, I don't usually have amenity problems which would make me want to put time into an aqueduct.

Maybe the UU will save it, after all, Arabia would be good if it was just a Mamluk. However, I tend not to build siege until Bombards, and UUs which don't replacement anything can't be upgraded into, so you won't be able to do any timing pushes with them or anything.

But hey, maybe that's just me.

 

[Guandao]

Civ6 seems to value name recognition (not just with leaders, but with its general design philosophy). I personally don't mind this. It keeps the roster interesting, with choices you wouldn't really pick. It's also not like Cleopatra or King Tut are famous for their administrations.

But enough about Cleopatra's bosom, let's talk about Jayavarman's. Like his civ's abilities, they aren't nearly as interesting as what they're stacked up against.

I don't like to build aqueducts most of the time and Holy Sites are just bad. The culture bomb is neat and the UB giving the Martyr promotion to Missionaries is actually really cool, but none of that seems powerful enough to actually incentivize me to build the necessary districts. The actual yield bonuses aren't even that good. One housing from a Holy Site? The single amenity is the best thing they get and even then, I don't usually have amenity problems which would make me want to put time into an aqueduct.

Maybe the UU will save it, after all, Arabia would be good if it was just a Mamluk. However, I tend not to build siege until Bombards, and UUs which don't replacement anything can't be upgraded into, so you won't be able to do any timing pushes with them or anything.

But hey, maybe that's just me.

I usually build aqueducts in all of my cities if I am able too. Maybe other players find them less important. I don't prioritize on building Holy Sites early though.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

Civ6 seems to value name recognition (not just with leaders, but with its general design philosophy). I personally don't mind this. It keeps the roster interesting, with choices you wouldn't really pick. It's also not like Cleopatra or King Tut are famous for their administrations.

But enough about Cleopatra's bosom, let's talk about Jayavarman's. Like his civ's abilities, they aren't nearly as interesting as what they're stacked up against.

I don't like to build aqueducts most of the time and Holy Sites are just bad. The culture bomb is neat and the UB giving the Martyr promotion to Missionaries is actually really cool, but none of that seems powerful enough to actually incentivize me to build the necessary districts. The actual yield bonuses aren't even that good. One housing from a Holy Site? The single amenity is the best thing they get and even then, I don't usually have amenity problems which would make me want to put time into an aqueduct.

Maybe the UU will save it, after all, Arabia would be good if it was just a Mamluk. However, I tend not to build siege until Bombards, and UUs which don't replacement anything can't be upgraded into, so you won't be able to do any timing pushes with them or anything.

But hey, maybe that's just me.

We haven't seen all of the new religion though, or if just general cost balances or whatever have changed things.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Civ6 seems to value name recognition (not just with leaders, but with its general design philosophy). I personally don't mind this. It keeps the roster interesting, with choices you wouldn't really pick. It's also not like Cleopatra or King Tut are famous for their administrations.

But enough about Cleopatra's bosom, let's talk about Jayavarman's. Like his civ's abilities, they aren't nearly as interesting as what they're stacked up against.

I don't like to build aqueducts most of the time and Holy Sites are just bad. The culture bomb is neat and the UB giving the Martyr promotion to Missionaries is actually really cool, but none of that seems powerful enough to actually incentivize me to build the necessary districts. The actual yield bonuses aren't even that good. One housing from a Holy Site? The single amenity is the best thing they get and even then, I don't usually have amenity problems which would make me want to put time into an aqueduct.

Maybe the UU will save it, after all, Arabia would be good if it was just a Mamluk. However, I tend not to build siege until Bombards, and UUs which don't replacement anything can't be upgraded into, so you won't be able to do any timing pushes with them or anything.

But hey, maybe that's just me.

That's based on the current valuation of religion. With the new patch, it may be more enticing to want to get your religion and to leverage it towards your preferred victory type.

 

[AnonymousSpeed]

Ah, right, forgot about the new religion changes, sorry. Fair enough, but I'm not entirely sure they'll help that much. You're still spending on a district slot to gamble for something that isn't as helpful as campuses, commercial hubs, and all their assorted bonuses. We'll see though, if you can reliably get Reliquaries now then you might be to do some ridiculous culture strategy with the Khmer.

EDIT: Oh yeah a Warrior Monk Armies, those will be the best kind of stupid.

I usually build aqueducts in all of my cities if I am able too. Maybe other players find them less important. I don't prioritize on building Holy Sites early though.

I usually build my cities with fresh water, so the Aqueduct is only two housing most of of time. That just doesn't seem worth it me, except maybe as Rome.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

Ah, right, forgot about the new religion changes, sorry. Fair enough, but I'm not entirely sure they'll help that much. You're still spending on a district slot to gamble for something that isn't as helpful as campuses, commercial hubs, and all their assorted bonuses. .

Hopefully they've changed that and it's become a hard decision between making the Holy Site vs. those others.

Next up: Theater Districts.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

I think the community as a whole underestimates the holy site.

I probably do. Haven't had a whole lot of run-throughs after all the patches.

 

[Trengilly]

The culture bomb is a pretty big incentive to build the hold sites and along with the benefits to slightly taller cities it will be easier for Khmer to have larger cities that can support another district. So it all plays together nicely.

 

[PhilBowles]

Civ6 seems to value name recognition (not just with leaders, but with its general design philosophy). I personally don't mind this. It keeps the roster interesting, with choices you wouldn't really pick. It's also not like Cleopatra or King Tut are famous for their administrations.

But enough about Cleopatra's bosom, let's talk about Jayavarman's. Like his civ's abilities, they aren't nearly as interesting as what they're stacked up against.

I don't like to build aqueducts most of the time and Holy Sites are just bad.

Non-Khmer holy sites are bad, but surely the point of this is that it makes an otherwise unattractive option more appealing? I see the Khmer less as forcing you to play a faith game than as giving you practical bonuses from districts etc. that are largely useless without focusing on religion.

Hopefully the patch changes will either redesign the GP bonus from holy sites or add the ability to spawn and do something with Great Prophets even after a religion is taken, so that holy sites actually generate relevant GPs and boosts from temples etc. actually do something.

The culture bomb is neat and the UB giving the Martyr promotion to Missionaries is actually really cool, but none of that seems powerful enough to actually incentivize me to build the necessary districts. The actual yield bonuses aren't even that good. One housing from a Holy Site? The single amenity is the best thing they get and even then, I don't usually have amenity problems which would make me want to put time into an aqueduct.

Don't Khmer have a food production bonus that helps them grow faster? That makes the housing more useful, and indeed the amenity. Also, holy sites come earlier in the game than practically anything else that produces housing. Keeping a fast growth rate for slightly longer is going to be more significant than it looks. It appears they're trying to retain some of the Khmer strengths from Civ IV with this interpretation.

As for culture bombs, the expansion - if it ever comes - needs to fix this. Evidently the ability is now considered generally useful enough to have given it to three civs and counting, but it's very awkward having it associated with different things for different civs. It should be a default part of the game - possibly associated with Theater Districts, with the special civs getting it for the other districts/improvements instead, or simply replacing the Polish, Australian and Khmer abilities with something else.

Maybe the UU will save it, after all, Arabia would be good if it was just a Mamluk. However, I tend not to build siege until Bombards, and UUs which don't replacement anything can't be upgraded into, so you won't be able to do any timing pushes with them or anything.

The elephant seems to be something of a 'just because' unit that doesn't have any obvious synergy with a particular strategy. The historicity of ballista elephants seems rather unclear - AoE 2's recent expansion evidently took them from Civ IV, and although the Wikipedia entry on war elephants states "Uniquely, the Khmer military deployed double cross-bows on the top of their elephants" no citation is provided (the link to double crossbows itself references elephants only in a caption on a Champa frieze - so at the very least they weren't unique to the Khmer). "Domrey" appears just to be a local word meaning 'elephant'.

It's notable that the Khmer carved many, many reliefs of elephants, including war scenes, but it seems hard to track down any images that provide evidence that they used elephant-mounted artillery. Probably they should just have got a war elephant unit similar to the Siamese unit in Civ V.

As an aside, is Civ VI relegated to Beyond Earth limbo on these forums? In Civ V, by now the main forum page would now be showing the first look videos rather than having them hidden in the forum.

 

[Archon_Wing]

Baray seems kinda whatever. Food's usually not a problem and aqueducts or whatever.

That siege unit sounds deadly, and since I rarely build catapults anymore, it may come in use.

The free martyr sounds completely broken, but then DLC gonna be DLC.

Overall, nice addition, as opposed to the p2w feel of previous entries.

 

[AnonymousSpeed]

The culture bomb is a pretty big incentive to build the hold sites and along with the benefits to slightly taller cities it will be easier for Khmer to have larger cities that can support another district. So it all plays together nicely.

Non-Khmer holy sites are bad, but surely the point of this is that it makes an otherwise unattractive option more appealing? I see the Khmer less as forcing you to play a faith game than as giving you practical bonuses from districts etc. that are largely useless without focusing on religion.

Don't Khmer have a food production bonus that helps them grow faster? That makes the housing more useful, and indeed the amenity. Also, holy sites come earlier in the game than practically anything else that produces housing. Keeping a fast growth rate for slightly longer is going to be more significant than it looks. It appears they're trying to retain some of the Khmer strengths from Civ IV with this interpretation.

Building a Holy Site still only nets the Khmer 1 housing, and only if it's on a river. That's not a large bonus.
This is especially important because it housing, and not food, that usually limits your population growth.
As a result, the Khmer don't seem to me like they'll be able to build many more districts than other civilizations.

Provided, a Holy Site and an Aqueduct is 3 housing, enough for another district.
However, that district will probably just be making up for the one you didn't build instead of a Holy Site.

The Holy Site might be available early, but housing isn't usually a problem super early on.
Meanwhile, it is imperative to get up Campuses, Commercial Hubs, and Industrial Zones as soon as possible.

So, one might argue that you build the Holy Sites in the mid-game.
However, you won't be getting a religion out of it at that point, and not a lot of benefit overall.
Buildings and Encampments would probably be better investments by then.

But hey, all because I don't think Khmer looks very strong doesn't mean I don't think they'll be interesting. I'm sure they'll make an infuriating AI opponent, since higher level AI can and does spam Holy Sites all over the place. I also expect they'll be fun to play with, but in the lower half of civs in terms of how much benefit they offer towards winning the game.

I forgot the Domrey can move and shoot on the same turn though, that's actually kind of cool.

Hopefully the patch changes will either redesign the GP bonus from holy sites or add the ability to spawn and do something with Great Prophets even after a religion is taken, so that holy sites actually generate relevant GPs and boosts from temples etc. actually do something.

Definitely agree with this, though.

 

[AnonymousSpeed]

Yes, but I very rarely have lacked the food to get to near enough my housing limit. Food might technically limit your growth, but you tend not to want for it in practice.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

The elephant seems to be something of a 'just because' unit that doesn't have any obvious synergy with a particular strategy. The historicity of ballista elephants seems rather unclear - AoE 2's recent expansion evidently took them from Civ IV, and although the Wikipedia entry on war elephants states "Uniquely, the Khmer military deployed double cross-bows on the top of their elephants" no citation is provided (the link to double crossbows itself references elephants only in a caption on a Champa frieze - so at the very least they weren't unique to the Khmer). "Domrey" appears just to be a local word meaning 'elephant'.

It's notable that the Khmer carved many, many reliefs of elephants, including war scenes, but it seems hard to track down any images that provide evidence that they used elephant-mounted artillery. Probably they should just have got a war elephant unit similar to the Siamese unit in Civ V.

That wouldn't be very unique though would it since India already has a melee Elephant warrior. Besides how else would an Elephant with a ballista get in the game unless they introduce the Champa or some other civ from Southeast Asia. I can let it slide based on the fact that also Cossacks aren't entirely Russian and Film Studios exist outside of Americas.

 

[PhilBowles]

That wouldn't be very unique though would it since India already has a melee Elephant warrior. Besides how else would an Elephant with a ballista get in the game unless they introduce the Champa or some other civ from Southeast Asia. I can let it slide based on the fact that also Cossacks aren't entirely Russian and Film Studios exist outside of Americas.

There's more than one civ with a melee horse warrior UU. Granted when I was thinking of it I missed the fact that the Indian UU in Civ V was a ranged unit, but I think there's room for different types of war elephants.

Of course I can't be sure the Khmer didn't use crossbow elephants - they were in contact with the Champa, after all - but Civ IV was prone to making things up out of nowhere to justify a couple of its UUs and, if the Khmer used them, it seems unlikely to have been a major component of their elephant force.

 

[stealth_nsk]

Oh yeah a Warrior Monk Armies, those will be the best kind of stupid.

Japan had some kind of Sohei armies.

 

[KayAU]

I don't think Holy Sites are all that bad, at least not for the Khmer, and perhaps more generally after the patch. Weren't the beliefs getting an overhaul? One thing I am considering with regards to the Khmer, is that they are supposed to be somewhat tall, yet their bonuses only give you 1 housing and 1 amenity. Mostly they seem to be focused on providing more food. This means that in order to go tall, you will need other sources of housing. This is where the Aqueduct and Holy Site bonuses make a bit of sense:

• Aqueducts are not bad, even if you have fresh water. Their cost was reduced 30% by the last patch, they don't count towards your district limit, and they provide adjacency bonuses for other districts. The Khmer have extra incentives to build them.
• Holy Sites are potential sources for housing. The Khmer get +1 housing, +2 food. In addition to that, you could get another +2 housing from the Religious Community belief, and another +1 housing from Pagodas. There may be changes to these, but as things are now, that's a significant +4 housing from the Holy Site, more than enough for another district. In addition, you will be getting a bunch of faith, which may be even more useful after the patch.

Additionally, remember that Monarchy got changed in the last patch, so you can get housing from walls. Put together, this means that housing is a smaller obstacle to growing tall cities than it used to be. So I can see the Khmer growing fairly tall in the Medieval era. Example of nice big Medieval Khmer city:
5 housing from fresh water
2 housing from Granary
2 housing from Aqueduct
4 housing from Holy Site
2 housing from Medieval Walls
1 housing from Barracks
1 housing from Lighthouse
1 housing from University
3 housing from tile improvements

That's 21 housing, with no Neighborhoods districts, and to me it seems very achievable. You may have good use for extra food.

 

[Katakanja]

Additionally, remember that Monarchy got changed in the last patch, so you can get housing from walls. Put together, this means that housing is a smaller obstacle to growing tall cities than it used to be. So I can see the Khmer growing fairly tall in the Medieval era. Example of nice big Medieval Khmer city:
5 housing from fresh water
2 housing from Granary
2 housing from Aqueduct
4 housing from Holy Site
2 housing from Medieval Walls
1 housing from Barracks
1 housing from Lighthouse
1 housing from University
3 housing from tile improvements

That's 21 housing, with no Neighborhoods districts, and to me it seems very achievable. You may have good use for extra food.

This is a good breakdown, though I think it would be closer to maybe 17/18 housing on average in Khmer cities in the midgame with minimal effort. I don't think you are going to want to build an encampment for the barracks and a harbour for the lighthouse in every city (you might not even be able to). Plus, given their religious slant, there will probably be a conflict between whether you want to run monarchy or theocracy (if you are going to be buying religious building for the housing, theocracy becomes even more important IMO) for an extended period of time, depending on what kind of victory you have in mind.

Regardless, I agree with you - any civ that can reliably get 15+ housing before neighborhoods without having to waste builders spamming unworked farms or other improvements just for extra housing everywhere is definitely worth attempting a tall strategy with.

 

[KayAU]

You are right, this will not be every city, but just an example of how much housing you could get from various sources. I could easily see myself getting a few cities with all of these, though. I actually really like Harbour Districts, and tend to prioritize them for coastal cities, so it wouldn't be just for the housing.

Good point about Theocracy. That's one of the advantages of having many sources of something, though, you could more easily afford to sacrifice one to get something else. It is the same with the beliefs, you may be tempted to get something else, and settle for anywhere from 1-4 housing from the Holy Site.

 

[Zaarin]

Funny story, but I'm pretty sure she owes her fame to Shakespeare before Elizabeth Taylor.

Ironically, the Shakespeare play wasn't very popular in his own lifetime, and for a couple centuries afterwards it was actually Dryden's Antony and Cleopatra (which I believe had a more...upbeat ending) that was widely performed. If memory serves Shakespeare's Antony and Cleopatra was revived in the late 19th century and has eventually become one of his most widely recognized plays (and rightly so; it's easily in my top 5 Shakespeare plays). Much like Vivaldi was only re-discovered in the Romantic period, or no one had heard of William Blake until William Butler Yeats stumbled upon his work.