King Younk's Questions thread
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King Younk
Warlord
Currently playing as Suryavarman II on Emperor - on an island with Isabella, who follows Confucianism, the religion I founded. I am very well developed, and able to run my research at maximum without going into debt.
That said, I am behind in the tech race to other civs badly, and there are violent foes a' comin' (Ragnar, Shaka, etc.) whomst I must prepare against.
What would you do from this point?
That said, I am behind in the tech race to other civs badly, and there are violent foes a' comin' (Ragnar, Shaka, etc.) whomst I must prepare against.
What would you do from this point?
Qactus
Romani ite domum
Spoiler :
King Younk
Warlord
I was focused on running a cottage economy this game - hence the Liberalism despite Hannibal having it.
I ended the game as the wealthiest, but in last place. Almost vassaled the Zulu, but Persia took it first.
How much importance should I place on relationships? That is the reason I didn’t go after Isabella.
I ended the game as the wealthiest, but in last place. Almost vassaled the Zulu, but Persia took it first.
How much importance should I place on relationships? That is the reason I didn’t go after Isabella.
Do you want to actually win a game? If all you plan to do is press enter each turn you will never win this game with just cottages. Being friendly to Spain this game achieved nothing due to your poor land and her slow tech speed.
You had 5 towns and 14 villages. What were you expecting free speech to do? Add 10 commerce a turn?
300 beakers a turn at 1000ad is not great. Even with an academy your only teching 345 or so beakers at 100% science with net gold!
Your start was nerfed by the settings due to all those wine resources. English started with 6 sea food resources. Incans had flood plains. Nearly all the AI started with 4 food resources. You had a lot of wine.
You had 5 towns and 14 villages. What were you expecting free speech to do? Add 10 commerce a turn?
300 beakers a turn at 1000ad is not great. Even with an academy your only teching 345 or so beakers at 100% science with net gold!
Your start was nerfed by the settings due to all those wine resources. English started with 6 sea food resources. Incans had flood plains. Nearly all the AI started with 4 food resources. You had a lot of wine.
NothingBesideRemains
Warlord
- Joined
- May 14, 2021
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- 113
I think it is detrimental to classify a given game as 'cottage economy' or 'specialist economy'. It can lead you to do things that theoretically synnergise, at the expense of 'playing the map'.
The theory would be that more cottages = free speech better BUT Bureacracy is often still preferred from a strictly science perspective until you have a LOT of towns. In particular, this is because Burea is one of the few *multiplicative multipliers* in the game. ie: a simple capital with 75 base commerce turn (say, 7 towns, 3 trade routes of 4 each, and some windmills/luxury resources /river tiles), and 75% base science modifiers up to Astronomy (Lib, Uni, Observatory, ignoring the potential for Oxford or an Acadamy or monastaries) is worth about 75 * 1.75 = 130ish science/ turn.
With Burea, that becomes 75 *1.5 * 1.75 = 180ish science / turn. With free speech adding 14 base commerce, that becomes 89 * 1.75 = about 155ish science turn. To make up the 25 lost science compared to burea, assuming avg 50% science modifiers in the rest of your empire, you'd need another 8-9 towns elsewhere, before factoring the hammers from Burea or the ability to forgo modifer buildings in other cities or the ability to academy or oxford your capital. Additionally in your case you need to factor the 1500isb beaker investment into Lib to get free speech in the first place.
If all your villages in the screenshots were towns already, and only 7 were in your capital, beakers /turn between burea and free speech is about brekeven, before considering the time investment to get there.
If indeed he even had CS at 900ad which he does not. Normaly I target 1ad for CS. If you're in bureau civic, have an academy and astronomy science is up 50%! Foreign trade routes really help. Bureau is huge for science in a cottage capital. Exploring work boat would of really helped early game.
Bureau added 26 commerce to the capital without making and real changes to the posted save. Capital needs to grab the 2x matured cottages. More if you do all the changes above.You would need at least 16+ towns to match this. Even that won't match capital with science multipliers from academy/lib/uni/obs and bureau commerce.
I tried running Bureau and /FS on your base save. Bureau came ahead by about 20 science. With academy that would be even higher.
Bureau added 26 commerce to the capital without making and real changes to the posted save. Capital needs to grab the 2x matured cottages. More if you do all the changes above.You would need at least 16+ towns to match this. Even that won't match capital with science multipliers from academy/lib/uni/obs and bureau commerce.
I tried running Bureau and /FS on your base save. Bureau came ahead by about 20 science. With academy that would be even higher.
pigswill
fly (one day)
Interesting tech choices, prioritising theology, philosophy, feudalism and paper over civil service and either engineering or astronomy. Also surprised to see Chichen Izza built. Its certainly unconventional.
King Younk
Warlord
Got a new one going as the Ottomans. Built GW and mids, will be cottaging and beelining Catapults to conquer a neighbor or two, then on to Civil Service. Tell me what yous think.
I will also attach my last game as the Khmer.
I will also attach my last game as the Khmer.
King Younk
Warlord
One other question - how should I parlay
my Pyramid advantage at this juncture? Should I only have one high-food city and turnt hat into a Great person factory while running Representation? Should I conquer the religious minorities on my continent and then develop? Whom should I remain friends with?
my Pyramid advantage at this juncture? Should I only have one high-food city and turnt hat into a Great person factory while running Representation? Should I conquer the religious minorities on my continent and then develop? Whom should I remain friends with?
You should utilize pyramids by adopting representation and growing your cities to the higher happycap, that way you can work more tiles and get more OMPH for your empire.
You can also get 3 extra beakers per turn for specialists you hire, but that benefit comes abit later.
The most glaring mistake I see is that you are building a stables.
The only occasion where you should ever go HBR before pottery is if you are doing some all-in horse archer rush.
Can't see from the screenshot, but I see no horses nor any ivory.
Konya looks terrible without the cows improved. Cities kind of need to have at least one food source to work or they grow to slow to be beneficial.
You probably have too few workers. And you should build more of those (and settlers) rather than barracks, walls, stables and wonders.
You can also get 3 extra beakers per turn for specialists you hire, but that benefit comes abit later.
The most glaring mistake I see is that you are building a stables.
The only occasion where you should ever go HBR before pottery is if you are doing some all-in horse archer rush.
Can't see from the screenshot, but I see no horses nor any ivory.
Konya looks terrible without the cows improved. Cities kind of need to have at least one food source to work or they grow to slow to be beneficial.
You probably have too few workers. And you should build more of those (and settlers) rather than barracks, walls, stables and wonders.
pigswill
fly (one day)
krikav: HbR looks like a goody hut acquisition. KY has 7 workers for five cities which ain't bad and is building walls/stables because he has nothing else to build at the moment. Having said that he would have benefited from settling a city with copper in first ring though at least Buddhism has spread from Hannibal for some culture.
If I get a GSpy from Gwall I tend to use it as a super scout and burn it for a GA later on.
If I get a GSpy from Gwall I tend to use it as a super scout and burn it for a GA later on.
3895bc HBR from a hut. He does have horse north of his land. I would of settled near the horse and just spammed HA around 3000bc. I think he starts with TW. He teched Hunting and archery. Just didn't follow through. Wasted techs if not going HBR. Should of beelined writing.
Edirne has killed off the double fish site.
I would settle near the horse and whip HA and take down Dutch.
Your a bit late for HA rush but least you have mids.
Edirne has killed off the double fish site.
I would settle near the horse and whip HA and take down Dutch.
Your a bit late for HA rush but least you have mids.
King Younk
Warlord
Well I lost.
What is a good tech order in the beginning game? For, say, the first 20 techs.
What is a good tech order in the beginning game? For, say, the first 20 techs.
That's too broad a question to give a general answer.
By and large early on the progression should be: relevant food techs -> Bronze Working -> Pottery.
But it's not that easy. You can sometimes skip some of the food techs for instance if you have wet wheat and hill sheep you can probably delay Animal Husbandry, go Mining -> Bronze Working directly and mine the hill sheep. In high level SP you may need Archery if you don't have copper. In low level SP or MP you could go for an early religion.
After Pottery, the next reasonable options are Sailing if you have a decent island for 2 yield trade routes, or Writing for trade routes if you don't have a serviceable island (meaning an island with some food or other good resources). Masonry for fail gold or Pyramids/Great Lighthouse or Priesthood for Oracle are options.
After that the most in tech trading games vs AI you research whatever has the best trade value. There is not much to say here. Without tech trading Math -> Currency is the orthodox play which is overwhelmingly chosen. Alternatives are Metal Casting for the Colossus and (IND) forges or Code of Laws for Confucianism and Caste System (-> make a merchant for trade mission). Edit: Horseback Riding to rush some other Civ can also be considered here.
By and large early on the progression should be: relevant food techs -> Bronze Working -> Pottery.
But it's not that easy. You can sometimes skip some of the food techs for instance if you have wet wheat and hill sheep you can probably delay Animal Husbandry, go Mining -> Bronze Working directly and mine the hill sheep. In high level SP you may need Archery if you don't have copper. In low level SP or MP you could go for an early religion.
After Pottery, the next reasonable options are Sailing if you have a decent island for 2 yield trade routes, or Writing for trade routes if you don't have a serviceable island (meaning an island with some food or other good resources). Masonry for fail gold or Pyramids/Great Lighthouse or Priesthood for Oracle are options.
After that the most in tech trading games vs AI you research whatever has the best trade value. There is not much to say here. Without tech trading Math -> Currency is the orthodox play which is overwhelmingly chosen. Alternatives are Metal Casting for the Colossus and (IND) forges or Code of Laws for Confucianism and Caste System (-> make a merchant for trade mission). Edit: Horseback Riding to rush some other Civ can also be considered here.
That will depend on starting techs, but a good rule is food techs - mining/Bronze Working - The Wheel/Pottery - Writing
