King Younk's Questions thread

[pigswill]

KY. How often do you build pyramids? I get Gwall if there's too much open space to fogbust (which is nearly always the case on huge maps) but maybe you could ask yourself if you really need pyramids that badly.

 

[lymond]

@King Younk

I took a look at your Otto game. That game is a really good example of why you are still not improving at all with this game.

I'm going to assume you got AH from a hut, and HBR is obviously from a hut. So Mining>BW was a good first choice for tech path, especially since Ottos start with the requisite food tech you needed. BW always good early for whipping and chops.

Then your teching devolves into useless paths, and for some reason I can't explain you have gone an immense amount of turns after Archery with no tech at all.

Let me make this clear. Not having Pottery and Writing at this stage - turn 219 on Mara - is a huge huge problem. You are simply not going to have success at this level if you continue to ignore this.

First, you need to rid yourself of this fixation on Archery. Archery is a dead end crap tech that served you no purpose here. Archery really only has situational usage on Deity level. Spawnbusting is more than sufficient here to deal with barbs. Anyway, you had Copper very close to your cap.

I'd ask you to do this for now and see how it works for you. Tech food tech (if needed) and BW. Then go POT or AH to Writing, depending on if AH is deemed necessary. Build a library in cap asap, or at least after the first couple of cities are out, and grow into 2 scientists. Of course, open borders with AIs and try to connect foreign trade routes as soon as reasonably possible. Then you can make decisions on whether you go Masonry for a resource/Wonder. On Emperor level, Alpha is not a bad option as you can get some value out of it, but at the point you tech Writing you are still likely very much in expansion mode so get at least use Alpha as a placeholder for now until economy stabilizes and libraries are in.

Next, make better settling decisions. You are not creative here. Some city choices could have been a lot better. Ankara can share food with Bul, but you left copper out in the wastland for a long time. You could do two things here. Settle 1N to bring cows into the first ring, or 1SE to bring copper into the first ring. Either way, you have a far more productive city than its current state.

Konya is settle very far a way and is a completely useless city. 1SE at least gives it cows. Or if Ankara was settled 1N, Konya could go 1E of current position to share cow short term and eventually have bananas for food. Still there may have been better options in the early stages than settling that area.

Bursa is fine.

Edirne I'm a little conflicted on. Seems the idea was to get stone online asap, but this was your first city and I'm not sure it was the best idea. Plus, you orphaned seafood. Ankara, better settled, woulda probably been my first choice here, as either of the two spots would have made for a highly productive city that could take on some worker/settler building.

You even have a good spot just E of Bul with pigs and tile sharing with the city.

So let's look at your current sich. You basically have all your cities now building stables and walls for lack of other options, which are both completely completely useless builds. While you have no granaries or libraries 219 turns into the game. Sorry, but that is simply not a winning proposition in Civ IV.

Note: One might consider FISH before POT especially with some lakes around, as you can work some lake tiles for a bit of early commerce in lieu of cottages until you can build them. FISH provides a little tech bonus on POT as well.

With early POT and Writing you will be in a better position to expand faster as well.

Lastly, I encourage you to really listen and apply the advice give here. It's been well over a year since your sporadic posting here looking for advice, but I still see little to no improvement in your game. I still recommend normal settings for learning, and committing to a shadow game - you did try once.

 

[King Younk]

l actually went up a level since I started posting.

Will reply with more when I get back to my pc.

 

[King Younk]

So I'm starting a new game and incorporating the suggestions provided

1. Research pottery first, then Bronze working, so that I can develop my economy and avoid a crash.
2. I will research Writing after bronze working to get my research up and running.
3. If I cannot find Copper nearby, I will research Archery early to have a reliable defensive unit. I might research it anyway to capitalize on a cost effective defender.

I will also prioritize Civil Service to take advantage of Bureaucracy.

Will update around that time. Might conquer a neighbor too.

 

[Gumbolt]

Sorry did you not listen? Forget archery. Warrior fog bust.

 

[lymond]

View attachment 606456

So I'm starting a new game and incorporating the suggestions provided

1. Research pottery first, then Bronze working, so that I can develop my economy and avoid a crash.

Not what I said, but may not actually be a bad idea with this start. I don't play Mara so it is hard for me to grasp the timings, but with Ag/TW start and Flood plains combined with how long it takes to tech BW on Mara and having worker do something useful, Pot first and a cottage or two may work out. Conversely, if BW timing did work with worker build and then you miss out on 90H chops to speed up the first settler and second worker. These are things that need to be considered. Most often early BW is going to payoff immensely just from a pure production standpoint. Keep in mind that expansion is the most important thing early.

Point is you want to be prepared to start chopping and whipping as soon as you are able. You don't need a bazillion cottages early at the expense of production/expansion, but a couple of early ones here will help a lot.

View attachment 6064562. I will research Writing after bronze working to get my research up and running.

Good

View attachment 6064563. If I cannot find Copper nearby, I will research Archery early to have a reliable defensive unit. I might research it anyway to capitalize on a cost effective defender.

Copper or No, I recommend working on your spawnbusting, which from what I've seen so far you either don't understand or know about at all. Your first few warriors should be out busting. A single unit busts a 5X5 tile area from the tile he stands on, so that can really help neutralize barb spawn. Granted you play on Huge so that can change things depending on map type and proximity of neighbors.

If you have AH resources nearby you plan to settle, AH is another option to gain a more advanced unit on a much more valuable tech.

Anyway, just trying to work on your archery fixation, so that you don't always feel you need to rush to it or even tech it at all. Many times I go whole games without ever owning archery at al.

View attachment 606456I will also prioritize Civil Service to take advantage of Bureaucracy.

.
This is good to a point, but be able to adapt to situations early. CS is a good thing to strive for though you don't necessarily have to "beeline" it. (I realize prioritize does not necessarily mean beeline)

Ultimately, regarding this game, and other than just the general advice we give you, I'd like to impress upon you the importance of each turn. I sense that you don't value turns themselves. A key concept to grasp with IV is that sooner you make gains the better things will snowball later. So things like worker turns and the decisions you make on where you settle and when you settle are hugely important. Settle cities with the idea that they should be as productive as they can be asap - best tiles improved, granary up asap, chops etc. The sooner that is done the sooner those cities can start focusing on more worker/settlers or units, while the cap transitions more into your research hub.

l actually went up a level since I started posting..

Means little to me and it's all relative. One can simply play a higher level and say they moved up a level. I'll be blunt though for perspective. If I did not know you and looked at one of your saves posted in this thread for the first time, I'd basically think you'd either never played the game before today or were otherwise very very new to it. Honestly, I know you mean well, but you've never really listened to the advice here since you been posting to this forum - at least I've never seen the results in your games. And the advice I and other have provided in this thread here have been repeated ad nauseam to you for the last year and half or so.

In that Otto game, the fact that you had no granaries or libraries a 1300bc on Mara! of all things, nor the means to even build them, is flat disasterous.

edit: Regarding your current game: There is no reason to have a warrior standing your city. He should be out spawnbusting your future city spot, or maybe stealing workers from Asucka

 

[konata_LS]

OP is really patient with games under Marathon speed . Many people are also patient and kind to keep giving OP advice .

Usually it's not necessary to tech Archery early only for barb defense; a decent fog busting with warriors would be fine. Unless you play with some specific settings, like "Raging barbarians" or "Low sea level - Cold climate".

In some really unlucky map, you may need Archery to defend against warmonger neighbours. For example if you're sandwiched between Genghis and Alex, you don't have Copper or Horse, IW takes still long, and one of your neighbours starts plotting. In such unlucky situations, Archery might make sense. But if your neighbour is Gandhi or Asoka, like your current Sumeria game, you can just ignore Archery.

About your current Sumeria game, fog busting with warriors would be fine. AH after BW is worth considering, because there is a cow up north. If I were you, I would settle the second city 2S of the cow. Gilgamesh is CRE, so he can settle cities with food in the 2nd ring; 2S of the cow is connected by river, which saves your worker turns to build road. AH also reveals Horse. If you discover a Horse nearby, why not to do a HAs rush? Not sure how HAs are under Marathon speed, but HAs rush works well under Normal speed, from Monarch to Deity.

If you decide to do a HAs rush, then you need to self-tech Archery or get it through trade, because you'll need Archery to build horse archers. Later, if you want to do a Cuirs rush and pre-build HAs, you'll also need Archery to unlock horse archers. But even in this case, Archery is not something you need in Ancient era. Again, under these circumstances, "research Archery in a HAs rush" is different from "tech Archery just for barb defense".
There was a successful Cuirassiers rush on Emperor level, and the player got Archery in 150 AD, only before he started pre-build HAs.

 

[King Younk]

Not what I said, but may not actually be a bad idea with this start. I don't play Mara so it is hard for me to grasp the timings, but with Ag/TW start and Flood plains combined with how long it takes to tech BW on Mara and having worker do something useful, Pot first and a cottage or two may work out. Conversely, if BW timing did work with worker build and then you miss out on 90H chops to speed up the first settler and second worker. These are things that need to be consider. Most often early BW is going to payoff immensely just from a pure production standpoint. Keep in mind that expansion in the most important thing early.

Point is you want to be prepared to start chopping and whipping as soon as you are able. You don't need a bazillion cottages early at the expense of production/expansion, but a couple of early ones here will help a lot.

Good


Copper or No, I recommend working on your spawnbusting, which from what I've seen so far you either don't understand or know about at all. Your first few warriors should be out busting. A single unit busts a 5X5 tile area from the tile he stands on, so that can really help neutralize barb spawn. Granted you play on Huge so that can change things depending on map type and proximity of neighbors.

If you have AH resources nearby you plan to settle, AH is another option to gain a more advanced unit on a much more valuable tech.

Anyway, just trying to work on your archery fixation, so that you don't always feel you need to rush to it or even tech it at all. Man times I go whole games without ever owning archery at al.


.
This is good to a point, but be able to adapt to situations early. CS is a good thing to strive for though you don't necessarily have to "beeline" it. (I realize prioritize does not necessarily mean beeline)

Ultimately, regarding this game, and other than just the general advice we give you, I'd like to impress upon you the importance of each turn. I sense that you don't value turns themselves. A key concept to grasp with IV is that sooner you make gains the better things will snowball later. So things like worker turns and the decisions you make on where you settle and when you settle are hugely important. Settle cities with the idea that they should be as productive as they can be asap - best tiles improved, granary up asap, chops etc. The sooner that is done the sooner those cities can start focusing on more worker/settlers or units, while the cap transitions more into your research hub.



Means little to me and it's all relative. One can simply play a higher level and say they moved up a level. I'll be blunt though for perspective. If I did not know you and looked at one of your saves posted in this thread for the first time, I'd basically think you'd either never played the game before today or were otherwise very very new to it. Honestly, I know you mean well, but you've never really listened to the advice here since you been posting to this forum - at least I've never seen the results in your games. And the advice I and other have provide in this thread here have been repeated ad nauseam to you for the last year and half or so.

In that Otto game, the fact that you had no granaries or libraries a 1300bc on Mara! of all things, nor the means to even build them, is flat disasterous.

edit: Regarding your current game: There is no reason to have a warrior standing your city. He should be out spawnbusting your future city spot, or maybe stealing workers from Asucka

I really do take people's advice - the food first, the chop, the granary.

Is everyone criticizing me even playing on Emperor or above? It's really just not accurate to say I'm not taking advice - it's bewildering, really.

 

[sampsa]

Well, marathon makes the game considerably easier and emp/mara isn't very difficult. While you might take some advice, you have been ignoring most of it. Either that, or you just don't understand the advice.

You haven't asked about fog busting. Do you understand what it is and how it works?

 

[King Younk]

Well, marathon makes the game considerably easier and emp/mara isn't very difficult. While you might take some advice, you have been ignoring most of it. Either that, or you just don't understand the advice.

You haven't asked about fog busting. Do you understand what it is and how it works?

I understand fog-busting. I’ll need to apply it mire.

How early can I expect foreign nations to start attacking me?

 

[lymond]

How early can I expect foreign nations to start attacking me?

No set formula for that and completely situational. Depends on a lot of factors. Some leaders are obviously more inclined to go to war than others. In some cases you can prevent AI plotting on you simply by using good Diplo practices. Many leaders do not plot at Pleased.

In many cases it simply comes down to RNG if a particular AI plots on you. But it's generally safe to bet that guys like Monty, Nappy, Rags, GK, Alex are going to attack sooner than later if they are close to you.

If you are not familiar with this article, it is a great tool to understanding how leaders are coded. I recommend bookmarking it:

Know Your Enemy

 

[pigswill]

Sampsa its worth remembering that its much easier to spawnbust standard than huge, you can find yourself in situations where the nearest civ is fifteen plus tiles away, spawnbusting fifty tiles is a lot easier than three hundred plus.

 

[lymond]

Sampsa its worth remembering that its much easier to spawnbust standard than huge, you can find yourself in situations where the nearest civ is fifteen plus tiles away, spawnbusting fifty tiles is a lot easier than three hundred plus.

True, but it's still useful and KY does not do it at all

 

[sampsa]

I think it's moot to try to fogbust hundreds of tiles. Just place some 3-6 units well and you'll be ready to deal with the threat much better.

I agree that fogbusting is tougher on bigger maps, which kinda makes it more important to do properly.

 

[Mr_Trotsky]

I wonder if getting your fog busting right may also be more important on slower speeds. My memory from the bad old days of marathon is that it can be hard to recover if something goes wrong. You can’t quickly chop a warrior when it’s nine turns for a chop or quickly tech archery when it’s fifteen turns away. I may be wrong but perhaps this goes some way to explaining an unhealthy relationship with archery.

 

[Gumbolt]

I have played some larger maps and barbs can be a pain. Sometimes it helps to add 1-2 ai. If your 15 tiles away from nearest ai that will be an issue. On marathon speed i am guessing the barbs have a longer period of activity. I think part of your issue is your playing such random settings. Most here play normal speed on a standard map size.

Albeit your last game had no such issue. If you are being attacked before 1000bc your unlucky.

Remember the ai needs 2 different attacking units before they go war mode. I assume you can see the red fists when they start planning wars. Are you using bug/bull.

 

[SillyGoat]

Completely spawnbusting a large area gets very expensive in terms of unit maintenance and support costs. But it's still worth spawn busting your immediate area as it will cut out spawns near your empire and it serves as a sentry net that gives you a few turns warning of incoming hostiles.

 

[pigswill]

You can certainly spawn bust your immediate neighborhood which will help keep the barbs further away, there's also a chance of barb cities which are very effective at spawnbusting loose barbs. You just have to hope that your spawnbusting warriors don't run into too many barb axes (which is the argument for archery).

 

[Gumbolt]

It's also another argument to rex quicker on maps with empty spaces as cities spawn bust areas. Albeit they need defending. Barbs should not enter borders before 2000bc on emperor.

 

[Fippy]

The most important point here: warriors sitting in cities do nothing, until they are actually needed against unhappy.
In your Uruk pic this guy should move out and secure a city spot you want. Or they can try gaining some xp for promos (like wmII)