KISS Files - Term 5

I'm not really worried about finding him - I suspect in a turn or two we will see him just outside Filiatra's borders. If we don't see him, then we actually have nothing to worry about. I'm concerned that he will settle down (in plain sight) between Filiatra and Olympia or between Olympia and Ceasaria (or whatever town is next to the west), and we will have to defend 2 places, and which 2 could change very quickly.
 
This just in from Whomp :confused:

Title ... MIA-KISS
Whomp said:
Irongold,
In case I can't get on AIM I want to send you this in hopes we can break the tension between our teams and come to some possible terms for peace. Our agreement (the written one) was a considerable disappointment to me since (as the admins have stated and you can check with them if you please) you did not hold up your end of the bargain.

However, they also stated it’s too late to get any gratification since it should have been done between turns 84-94. Which we requested at that time. At that time, we requested “favoured nation status” after you gave hard earned techs we developed together to TNT. My personal view is the whole treaty was broken the moment you disagreed to compensate us and we should have attacked you then. My team disagrees with me and wants to still honor this broken agreement.

I appeal to you, personally, to avoid conflict. If your team is already prepared to declare war on us then so be it and let’s have at it. If not then let’s try to establish a dialogue. This dialogue should include how we should be compensated and the peace process.
Respectfully yours,
W
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I always know I'm in trouble when called IronGold :hammer2:

I have sent to the moderators G_A and RM to seek clarification and forwarded the original Whomp note with this below.
Please address and explain what Whomp claims ... as it is our impression that we broke no agreement.
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and sent this to Whomp.

Dear Whomp of the KISS

I am seeking clarification from the moderators on what you say ... it is news to us that they have ruled that we are at fault ... as it is still our stance that we have not broken any agreement.

So until either Ginger_Ale or Regentman does respond I cannot address the point you have raised. However I do say this, our attitude towards violence and war has not altered from the fine days of the Green Alliance. We have been reacting to your aggressive actions and the presence of Grinder so far south is a grave cause for concern to us.

I hope this helps to cast a positive light to your note.

Feaurius III
Foreign Minister
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Either this is a feint which will accomplish absolutely nothing, or peace actually has a chance still – I guess our consistently strong military has made them nervous.

It is definitely news that the admins feel we broke our agreement when it seems very clear to me that KISS cancelled it, but I will wait to hear their explanation before getting into that too much.

I don’t think we owe them “compensation” because I don’t think we broke our deal (pending admin explanation), but if we can get a real peace deal (and I mean real – not some cheesy 10-turn delay), then it might be worth giving them something. They have to understand that Feudalism and Monotheism are not on the table under any circumstances – admin opinion notwithstanding, we certainly never deliberately broke our word, and I don’t think we should now. Other than that, we will certainly listen to what they think is fair, but I wouldn’t put any offers on the table – just listen to what they are asking for.

Hopefully, you can chat with Whomp soon.
 
...it?s too late to get any gratification since it should have been done between turns 84-94. Which we requested at that time. At that time, we requested ?favoured nation status? after you gave hard earned techs we developed together to TNT
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I'm not understanding what he's referring to. When did they request "favored nation status"? I know that was part of the original 7 Tiers of Friendship, but Tubby et alia made it very clear that the 7 Tiers was defunct as of the completion of the Republic trade.

Here's what I'm worried about: There is no reason for mods or admins to be dragged into something that is, at heart, the result of KISS and MIA not communicating effectively. I would prefer that we leave the admins out of this, if for no other reason than we are all adults and should be able to solve our own problems. With the map they sent, there was a potential game violation, so I we obviously had to call the admins in on that issue.

I don't want us to be the team that starts asking for the admins to approve or disapprove of actions we are considering in the diplomatic realm. The admin's role is to ensure that all teams are playing by the agreed-upon rules; it is decisively NOT to act as mediators or arbiters.

Okay, huffing and puffing is starting to subside....

Returning to the text of Whomp's message:
I want to send you this in hopes we can break the tension between our teams and come to some possible terms for peace. Our agreement (the written one) was a considerable disappointment to me since (as the admins have stated and you can check with them if you please) you did not hold up your end of the bargain.
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This could be very positive. We must proceed with humility. We are in a more powerful military position, and we are quickly gaining on KISS is VP's. We must assuage fears, massage egos, and, if the price of peace demands, Apologize for acting in ways that hurt KISS.

We are certainly open to the idea of compensation, if the result is a reduction in tensions as well as a Real Peace Deal (ref. Chamnix).

But I'm very serious about this apologizing and humble stuff - remember how they reacted whenever the words "slow-burn" were mentioned in chats or letters? It was like poking a bull with a branding iron. It got them progressively angrier and angrier.
 
I agree that the admins should be left out of as many things as possible, but here is the issue - each team starts with a clean reputation. KISS may tell TNT and Dnuts that we broke our word - the admins can confirm or deny this. That is part of the game - the admins are playing the equivalent role of the Foreign Advisor saying "The Greeks are known liars and cheats."

If the admins are going to confirm that we broke our word, I think we need an explanation.

I agree that we can be humble and apologize, but I find myself getting angrier and angrier every time I read "you did not hold up your end of the bargain", "you gave hard earned techs we developed together to TNT", "the whole treaty was broken the moment you disagreed to compensate us and we should have attacked you then", "this broken agreement", "we should be compensated" - I can get rather ornery when poked too many times also...
 
I disagree about not getting GA and RM involved ... KISS brought it up for no other reason than to tell us (subtly) that we are at fault ... I would like to hear what the mods say about this clain of KISS.

We are open to peace with KISS, but I'm not about to crawl to them either :nono: this whole thing is their doing and ignoring the map fopar (which never happened), their previous corespondence did infact acknowledge that we had a case when we interpreted the agreement being over ...

Can we really trust then again?

Before we act, I want to hear exactly what the mods told them ... for IMO this will influence our direction, as their entire compensation argument is based on its validity.

EDIT ... in case it was not made clear ... I have already acted in the above manner, as I saw that this was too urgent to be delayed with too much debate ... and delay in replying to Whomp would also have been received negatively.
 
What an amazing bunch of whiners!

They deserve to be wiped out just for being irritating.

However – on a more rational note – I really agree with Peter's approach. Let do what we can (with-in reason) to get peace. But only if it's a real, lasting, binding peace. I have no doubt this "poor-me" attitude is spawned by seeing us so far ahead of them militarily. They'll stab us in the back and call it Karma if they get the chance.

If they'll put their name to a "no war without 20-turns notice" treaty, then I'd be willing to be very generous to our new "Friends."

But there's no point in getting too far down this road till we hear from the Admins. I just can't believe there's anyway to say we broke our word. WE are the ones that wanted peace to continue. WE are the ones who were taken advantage of by the manipulation of our treaty. THEY are the ones that gave notice of their intent to abandon the treay.

But anyway. I'm just getting myself all smoked up.
 
I'm glad my post elicited some alternate views. I agree with many of the points you guys have raised, especially concerning the game admins. However, the role of the admins should NEVER be abused or manipulated, as I fear is happening on the KISS end of things. After all - the only way to make a treaty Binding [with a capital B] is by submitting the treaty to the admins. This never happened with our 7 Tiers. I guess I just don't understand why KISS is invoking the admins.

But on all the other points you guys raise, I agree.

Fe: Thanks for sending the note to Whomp so expeditiously. My comments do not express displeasure at that... I guess I'm just more fired up about KISS tossing a firecracker into our tent right before the big fight.
 
This from Regentman ... I feel that we've (i've) been manipulated into bothering these fine people :mad:

RegentMan said:
Whomp, fe3333au,

I suggest that we stop arguing back and forth about this treaty. Any prior actions are just that, prior; in the past. War may not be declared before turn 104. On turn 104, you may engage in conflict, negotiate another treaty, or whatever you nations decide to do.

But please, let's drop this treaty issue.
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< calming breathing ... kittens ... kelp forrect diving ... tranquil ... Ohmmmm ... Calm ;)>


So what is our next step ???

1. Forget it .. Let's have a War

2. Send a note
- you already have correspondence from us where all our points have been outlined ... address them cos at the moment you are plainly in the wrong

3. send a note
- what do you require from us?

4. send a note
- since we are adamant that you are in the wrong, send us proof of what the administrator's sent you ... because at the moment it seems you are just grasping at straws to justify your aggressive acts ... move your units back north and we will continue to stay south! ... that is the best climate to discuss things in a less tense environment.

At the moment that only one I'm against is the rolling over with our tail between our legs.
 
We checked with the admins as you suggested, and they refused to confirm that we did not hold up our end of the bargain, and in our view we kept our deal.

Once again, we feel the need to reiterate our point of view, since our honor is important to us, and we are insulted by your continuing accusations that we broke our deal.

1. The original treaty is not clear whether the tech trading portion can be broken independently of the peace portion or not. Obviously, Whomp and Daghda (at least) felt it could be, and much of the rest of KISS did not.

2. KISS sent an official letter to our gmail on January 4 saying clearly that the tech portion was cancelled leading us to believe that your interpretation was that the tech trading was independent of peace. The meaning of your official correspondence was confirmed in a chat on January 7.

3. At no time did anyone from KISS tell us that was not their interpretation. Over a week passed between the official correspondence and the follow-up chat among Chamnix, Whomp and Daghda and the time the deal between MIA and TNT was consummated. We can only assume chats are posted in your forums as they are in ours. If anyone from KISS wanted to disavow the official correspondence of January 4 or the statements made in that chat, there was ample opportunity to do so.

Since the original treaty had different possible interpretations, and it was obvious to us which interpretation KISS had chosen by actively cancelling the tech trading portion in official correspondence, we feel we acted completely honorably in pursuing other trades.

That being said, we feel remorseful about what our relationship has come to. We have no desire to see war on our continent and remain hopeful that it can be averted. We feel an open dialogue would be in both parties' best interests and look forward to discussing how we can work together and at peace in the future.
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I know my closing is very weak, and I am not really being apologetic enough, but I just keep getting very annoyed by the accusations of dishonor. I just cannot see how they can say that and keep saying it 5 different ways in just 3 paragraphs as Whomp did.

Someone who is a little calmer than I am right now should probably make it a little nicer - peter's usually good at that.
 
Some subtle changes ... and I too and trying to calm ... I would like to send something to them very soon.

We checked with the admins as you suggested, and they refused to confirm or deny that we did not hold up our end of the bargain, and in our view we kept our deal. In lieu of the administrator's non clarification stance, we can only invite you to submit their so-called 'ruling' so that we may see it ourselves.

Once again, we feel the need to reiterate our point of view, since our honor is important to us, and we are insulted by your continuing accusations that we broke our deal.

1. The original treaty is not clear whether the tech trading portion can be broken independently of the peace portion or not. Obviously, Whomp and Daghda (at least) felt it could be, and much of the rest of KISS did not.

2. KISS sent an official letter to our gmail on January 4 saying clearly that the tech portion was cancelled leading us to believe that your interpretation was that the tech trading was independent of peace. The meaning of your official correspondence was confirmed in a chat on January 7.

3. At no time did anyone from KISS tell us that this was not their interpretation. Over a week passed between the official correspondence and the follow-up chat among Chamnix, Whomp, Tubby and Daghda and the time the deal between MIA and TNT was consummated. We can only assume chats are posted in your forums as they are in ours. If anyone from KISS wanted to disavow the official correspondence of January 4 or the statements made in that chat, there was ample opportunity to do so.

Since the original treaty had different possible interpretations, and it was obvious to us which interpretation KISS had chosen by actively cancelling the tech trading portion in official correspondence, we feel we acted completely honorably in pursuing other trades. TNT confirmed that concurrant to us, that you yourself were engaging them in similar trade discussions. We were both acting in virtually an identical manner with TNT, so suggesting that we were dishonouring you in this process is a completely outrageous stance.

That being said, we feel remorseful about what our relationship has come to. We have no desire to see war on our continent and remain hopeful that it can be averted. We feel an open dialogue would be in both parties' best interests and look forward to discussing how we can work together and at peace in the future.
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Tag to next drafter ...
 
I can't revise or draft for another 4 hours from this post (hopefully less). So don't wait for me if you need to send in on sooner.
 
I think we can wait a bit - it is important to get this right. Fe3333au already sent a preliminary note that said we are interested in peace - if he thinks it's necessary, then send another brief note just reiterating that we are definitely not looking for war, and we are working on a more formal response.

@fe - I like most of your changes, but I'm not sure of the TNT stuff. For all we know, TNT was lying, so I wouldn't use TNT's statements as justification.
 
You are probably correct :) ... I was just trying to point out that while they are pointing the finger, they were at the same time doing exactly what they accuse (though wrongly) us of :shakehead:

[pissed] KISS are sooo wrong on sooo many levels here ... I wonder what all this is going to achieve ... I am against any conpensation !!!

This is what they want ... and because I cannot see it, what are people willing to be extorted for, for peace?
 
By the looks of this, KISS are trying to pin the blame on us for their failure in treating us well. They broke of the deal, whereas we wanted the deal to continue, so they are those one's at fault not us, because we did what we could to get the best out of our situation. We really did not want this to happen, but they forced us to take this course of action. What were we supposed to do, allow them to walk all over us and treat us like they pleased? Of course not and now they are seeing there folly of this and they are trying to ruin our reputation because they know that we are much more powerful than they ever imagined us to be. I say that we should ignore them and continue with the war plans because, that is what they deserve.
 
I completely agree that KISS is clearly the one in the wrong here which is why I keep getting angry about this nonsense. They deserve to be whipped in a war, and we should not have to give them anything for peace.

However, we have to keep the goal in sight here - we want to win this game (at least I do!). Regardless of what KISS deserves, I think we do whatever gives us the greatest chance of winning the game (as long as we stay honorable - we can't give Mono or Feud, for example) so we can consider gritting our teeth and giving them something if it helps us win (i.e. beat the crap out of them later). I think a war with KISS now would severely damage our chances of ultimately winning the game.
 
This is starting to slide into a Grand Strategy conversation, but I guess that's a good indication :)

We are certainly on the very brink of war. If it can be avoided, we stand to gain more than if we choose to fight. Personally, I am against fighting. As Minister of Defense, I think we are likely to gain more from a war later on rather than now. But, let's not forget how quickly a marketplace can be put up once we're in a Golden Age ;)

Now to play devil's advocate: KISS thinks they have been wronged. They don't have as much to lose by attacking a stronger, 'unjust' neighbor as we do. It is in their interest to attack now. I'm afraid they will ask for more than we can afford for peace.

That said, here's my rewrite based on Fe's latest, and Chamnix' suggestions. Feel free to disregard, reedit, send, or laugh at :)

It is with great relief and hope that we respond to Whomp's letter of February 15. Our continent is on the brink of war indeed, and MIA does not want to go to war against our neighbors to the north. With the goal of reestablishing peace, here is MIA's position:

As the 7 Tiers was never submitted to the admins, we don't feel it is wise to drag them into a dispute that is, at heart, a matter of miscommunication and misinterpretation between the members of our two teams. The admins' role is to Administer the game, make sure everyone plays by the same rules; not resolve personal problems. We should be able to work this out ourselves.

Once again, we will reiterate our point of view re our trade with TNT. Our honor is important to us, and we are insulted by your continuing accusations that we broke our deal:

1. The original treaty is not crystal clear as to whether the tech trading portion can be broken independently of the peace portion or not. Whomp and Daghda (at least) felt it could be, and apparently some of the rest of KISS did not.

2. KISS sent an official letter to our gmail on January 4 stating clearly that the tech portion was cancelled. This lead us to believe that your interpretation was that the tech trading was independent of peace. This interpretation (of your official correspondence) was confirmed in a chat on January 7.

3. At no time did anyone from KISS tell us that this was not their interpretation. Over a week passed between the official correspondence, the follow-up chat among Chamnix, Whomp, Tubby and Daghda; and the completion of the deal between MIA and TNT. If anyone from KISS wanted to disavow the official correspondence of January 4 or the statements made in that chat, there was ample opportunity to do so. It is beyond our control if the text of the chat was not made available for the other member of KISS to read and respond to.

4. Though the 7 Tiers contained different possible interpretations, it was obvious to us which interpretation KISS had chosen because the tech trading portion was cancelled by the leaders of both teams in official correspondence. We acted completely honorably in pursuing the trade with TNT. In fact, TNT made a comment that could be interpreted to mean that KISS was in trade talks with them as well. This was never confirmed.

We are disappointed about what our relationship has come to. We have no desire to see war on our continent and remain very hopeful that it can be averted. An open dialogue would be in both parties' best interests and look forward to discussing how we can work together and at peace. A first step towards restoring peace could be the withdrawl of your cartographic expeditions from the area south of the jungle ;)
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I like it.

There's kind of a sudden tone shift between the 2nd and 3rd paragraph - but I don't think that's a problem.

Only 1 change I would suggest...
As the 7 Tiers was never submitted to the admins, we don't feel it is wise to drag them into a dispute that is, at heart, a matter of miscommunication and misinterpretation between the members of our two teams.
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To me, this sounds like a drunk that just got in a car accident saying "let's not involve the cops, we can just settle this ourselves"... it sounds a little evasive and guilty.

Maybe something more like this...
We have checked in with the admins - but as the 7 Tiers was never submitted to them, and this is now a historical matter, they quite properly don't have an opinion. We don't feel it is wise to try to drag them into this dispute further - after all, at the heart, this is a matter of miscommunication and misinterpretation between the members of our two teams.
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just a thought!

Otherwise, I think it's great.
 
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