But even by including all the transcripts, it is still just Dag and Whomp, and both of them are in the snippets I had as well. I think anything that does not strengthen our argument, weakens it. If 90% of what we put doesn't directly impact the issue, then the 10% that does gets lost. If we only send them the 10% that is on target, it is much more forceful.
A lot of the parts you selected deal with the peace arrangement - nobody is disputing that is in effect. I think all we want to show is that it was clear the tech portion was cancelled - the rest is not meaningful and detracts from the main thrust.
I like the flavor of giving the ivory for twenty turns, no strings attached... but I agree with Chamnix that I'm not sure it will accomplish our goal: Lull KISS back into a tight peace deal.
We can give KISS Engineering once they have contruction, no? They might appreciate a gift of a military tech. We should check to be certain, but I don't think we are violating any agreement with TNT if we gift a tech that we researched ourselves. Just an idea.
It doesn't cost us anything to let them have our ivory for 20 turns. The only other way we'd be using it is in a trade for wines. But we could only get wines from TDNUT. Personally, I'd much rather have TNT's silks to DNUT's wines. All I'm trying to say is - let's send the ivory, it certainly can't hurt.
Overall, I like the latest Fe letter and Chamnix' edit equally. I usually prefer brevity, but I understand Fe's desire to show that Tubby himself was part of all the miscommunication. I would avoid highlighting/coloring the text, though. Most of the highlights are on KISS text, and they could take that as accusatory. And for what it's worth, I also find it distracting to my train of thought, as it doesn't change the meaning of anything written, so it only serves to cloud the conversation.
I would be comfortable sending either of the letters.
I sort of agree with Cham .. but just want to show that these 'quotes' are not taken out of context ... would it help if they were hidden in spoilers ? ... I'm also ready to cut the quotes as well if desired
I will also decolour them.
Also ... I am also trying to get Whomp in conversation prior to our turn.
I'm feeling like I'm coming across as nit-picky, but so be it:
I don't think the trade parts should be in spoilers, as that is the text we are trying to show them!
But, I guess the tough one is the chat of January 8. That's where the finer points of the 10-turn end of peace warning were hashed out, and the one that takes up the vast bulk of the text. I could see that one being in a spoiler, as it is tangent to the main point of the letter - like a footnote.
One good thing about it being in a spoiler is that we aren't smashing them over the head with Peace Peace Peace Peace. Let's not forget that a little humility on our part could go a long way towards keeping us out of war.
here it is in spoilers and one colour ... but the highlights of transcripts are in italics ... I think it important as a stress for our interpretation.
Dear Team KISS
We received a letter from Whomp and would like to address this. He certainly cannot blame himself for the communication breakdown. We were not relying solely on Chamnix’s chat with Whomp, Tubby and Daghie, but also previous chats and, most of all, your official correspondence signed by Team KISS. Perhaps you are right that techs should have been discussed in more detail in your chat with us, but Chamnix and the other KISSers present also neglected to bring it up. If there was miscommunication, no single individual or single team is to blame.
We felt (and still feel) strongly that KISS had ended the trading clauses of our agreement and left only the peace deal in place, and multiple correspondences led us to this conclusion. We do not see any other reasonable interpretation of your January 4th official correspondence. We are an honorable team and would never have acted as we did had we known that you did not have the same understanding.
SpoilerExamples in the Official Transcripts :
4th January ... the Rejection Letter which appeared soon after the Xmas Deal .. which we were about to agree to
We regard the deal for Republic a grand finale of the above mentioned partnership and, thus, an end of previous made agreements. We would like to maintain a friendly relationship, but also to make way for each team to stand on their own when they decide to. Therefore, the proposed agreement sent by MIA will not be signed by KISS.
6th January ... Alliance is over ... confusion with 10 turns of Warning
fe3333au: When you say after Republic trade we will just be friends ... how does that effect the 10 turns warning to being attacked ... I consider that still to be the case ... am I correct
sixpackholiday: It means that we consider the previous deal ended ... and yes, with it all other arrangements.
Chamnix says:
i believe daghda said that once the rep deal was consumated then our previous agreement was "null and void"?
Whomp says:
it expires with peace the way i read it
Chamnix says:
i don't understand
Whomp says: we both have fulfilled our part of the republic for techs deal
Whomp says:
as long as all techs are included. we are at tech parity
Whomp says: the only remaining part to fulfill is the peace part of the agreement
Drummer Boy says:
what we said in the announcement, IIRC, is that we would like a clean sheet after the rep deal is done in a satisfactory way
Chamnix says:
so you believe the peace deal is still in effect?
Whomp says: if we are at tech parity
Chamnix says:
we thought Daghda meant you were cancelling the peace portion once republic was traded regardless of what techs were involved
<later>
Whomp says:
sorry i was clarifying the peace part of the deal
Whomp says:
needed to review again
Drummer Boy says:
everything is cool
Whomp says:
so after both of us receive techs our deal is complete
Whomp says: except for the 10 turns of peace
Chamnix says:
so we are at peace unless 10 turns warning is given, and no warning has been given so far, correct?
Drummer Boy says: correctemundo
Whomp says:
actually i think it was terminate the peace was 10 turns
<later>
Whomp says:
after republic and the techs are exchanged the deal is complete
Whomp says: then we can either renegotiate peace or turn it off. there is 10 turns minimum of peace after the deal is done
Whomp is searching for:
there is also 10 turns warning
Whomp says: if you or we say no then there's also a 10 turn warning from there
Chamnix says:
i think we agree....
Chamnix says: mandatory 10 turns peace after republic, then peace unless someone gives 10 turns warning?
Whomp says:
the peace part is complex. lol
Whomp says:
i'll have daghie post
Drummer Boy says:
i think you have it there Cham...
Drummer Boy says: after rep is in we have 10 turns of no declaring anything
Whomp says:
brb
Drummer Boy says: after those 10 turns one side can declare that they will strike in 10 turns, but not before
Chamnix says:
got it
Drummer Boy says:
i think we agree there
Drummer Boy says: that is the current deal as i read it
As the above correspondence examples indicate, it was very clear to us that KISS intended to leave the tech-trading restrictions part of our treaty behind - and so we didn't think twice about moving on also. We were not relying solely on Whomp's words, but chats with multiple members of KISS confirmed the meaning of your official correspondence.
TNT was always a second choice as partner for us - we would much rather return to KISSMIA. Unfortunately, due to the perceived strain in KISSMIA, we were forced to agree not to provide you with techs traded with TNT as a caveat they placed on the deal, and we cannot break our word. We realize there will be strain caused by our being ahead in technology, but we hope there is a way to work around this – after millennia of friendship it would be awful to see our continent descend into the same type of destructive warfare that has plagued the Battle Isle.
As a team, we highly value our honor. Please understand that if we had believed that KISS expected the trade restrictions to still be in place, we would not have done anything that could be taken as us breaking our word. (refer to our polytheism deal – even though we didn't see things the same way, we honored what KISS understood to be MIA's promise.)
Regardless of how all the issues in our past happened – the bottom line is that you scared us immensely when you repeatedly signaled (in chats and official correspondence) your intention to abandon the treaty that has made both our empires rich and strong.
We panicked, and scrambled to find a new ally to save us from what we were certain was an impending attack. However, since Whomp confessed to mis-communicating your intentions with us, we have found new reason to hope that perhaps it was not your intention to bring our mutual peace to a violent end.
We therefore offer a gift of Ivory for 20 turns as a sign of goodwill and as a simple starting place to get back on the road to peace.
EDIT ... I think stressing how they numerous times agreed to peace is something we should be pointing out to them ... in all the calls for clarification there minimum of 10 turns had always be stated ... sometimes with an additional 10 turns and sometimes without ... if they attack now, then they are breaking their own words from many voices not just Whomp.
My reasonning to continually stress the peace element ... is that a team with honour (as I believe KISS to be) are despartely looking for a way to attack and at the same time retain the honour ... the continued throwing back their words at them will I hope, give us time ...
I also believe that paying for peace is akin to bribing them ... it will not work ... if the honour approach doesn't work ... then nothing will.
There is also our honour ... I for one will not be extorted and cajoled into feeling guilty for out playing the other team ... after all, does anyone really believe that KISS would have not taken an exclusive deal from TNT, knowing that doing so would have excluded us from gaining Construction ... they are frustrated that they went the Monarchy route and now have to decide whether to complete this research or swap to Construction and waste all the beakers.
Anyway that's my bent on things ... which I think is differing to others.
I don't think you're that different Fe3333au!
After reading everything that's been posted here (And elsewhere) - I agree completly... while I still like the thought behind giving KISS some Ivory... Fe is 100% right.... if the honor dosn't keep the peace - nothing will.
And Fe raises good points about the consequences of bribing them for peace. I don't consider the ivory a bribe, as we aren't weaker for the loss of it for 20 turns. (although our resident macroeconomist might have another take on that )
One thing that seems clear to me: Their governing technique (Anarchists subservient to the POTKiss) is not as effective as our system. This is something we have exploited several times so far. Interesting to think back to those first 'ambush' chats, and how vulnerable their system made us feel
Now we have adapted to changing circumstances, and grown stronger as a team for it. They have not.
Point of information ... I do not concider the ivory as a bribe ... as it means nothing to us ... we still have additional left to trade for wines with Nuts if they want it.
Gifts will not prevent an early attack, but honor will certainly not keep the peace any longer than turn 104 - at that point they can attack completely honorably, and if we care about delaying war further than that, then gifts may help. Maybe we don't care about delaying war after that - maybe it will be as good a time as any to fight them, but I think that is the goal of the potential gifting.
fe3333au said:
I think stressing how they numerous times agreed to peace is something we should be pointing out to them ... in all the calls for clarification there minimum of 10 turns had always be stated ... sometimes with an additional 10 turns and sometimes without ... if they attack now, then they are breaking their own words from many voices not just Whomp.
My reasonning to continually stress the peace element ... is that a team with honour (as I believe KISS to be) are despartely looking for a way to attack and at the same time retain the honour ... the continued throwing back their words at them will I hope, give us time ...
This is exactly why I think it is not necessary to remind them of the peace deal. They know they signed that, we agreed many times on the meaning, and they will follow it unless we broke the deal first. The only relevant item is the tech trading clause that they cancelled - I think they are very aware the peace deal could not be cancelled and was not cancelled and constantly harping on it is insulting.
We therefore offer a gift of Ivory for 20 turns as a sign of goodwill and as a simple starting place to get back on the road to peace beyond the stipulated and agreed turn 104.
Nothing to add to the bulk of the discussion, but I keep forgetting to add this... just so we are clear, everyone is aware that we cannot actually give them ivory for at least another 2-3 turns when we have a trade route, right?
I would prefer us not to give them anything to buy peace because I seriously doubt that they will accept or that they will keep the peace even after we give them this luxury because I do not think they really need another lux ATM.
Giving Ivory for 20 turns is not a bribe. Even if they do need it, they are able to refuse it. It is nothing more than a gesture aimed at relieving tension, just as Whomp's letter of apology was an attempt at relieving tension.
Giving Ivory for 20 turns is not a bribe. Even if they do need it, they are able to refuse it. It is nothing more than a gesture aimed at relieving tension, just as Whomp's letter of apology was an attempt at relieving tension.
Ther is another way they could interpret this sort of action. We are not ready for war and thus we are ripe for the attack. I would rather that they think that we are strong and that it would be a huge risk for them to attack us, than us show some weakness. I know that we are not read for war yet, but we can make them think that we actually are.
here is the final draft ... I think ... spell checked and sent to Tubby, Daghie and Whomp and also KISS g-mail.
Title - Relaxative
Dear Team KISS
We received a letter from Whomp and would like to address this. He certainly cannot blame himself for the communication breakdown. We were not relying solely on Chamnix’s chat which included Whomp, Tubby and Daghda; but also previous chats and, most of all, your official correspondence signed by Team KISS. Perhaps you are right that techs should have been discussed in more detail in your chat with us, but Chamnix and the other KISSers present also neglected to bring it up. If there was miscommunication, no single individual or single team is to blame.
We felt (and still feel) strongly that KISS had ended the trading clauses of our agreement and left only the peace deal in place, and multiple correspondences led us to this conclusion. We do not see any other reasonable interpretation of your January 4th official correspondence. We are an honourable team and would never have acted as we did had we known that you did not have the same understanding.
SpoilerExamples in the Official Transcripts :
4th January ... the Rejection Letter which appeared soon after the Xmas Deal .. which we were about to agree to
We regard the deal for Republic a grand finale of the above mentioned partnership and, thus, an end of previous made agreements. We would like to maintain a friendly relationship, but also to make way for each team to stand on their own when they decide to. Therefore, the proposed agreement sent by MIA will not be signed by KISS.
6th January ... Alliance is over ... confusion with 10 turns of Warning
fe3333au: When you say after Republic trade we will just be friends ... how does that effect the 10 turns warning to being attacked ... I consider that still to be the case ... am I correct
sixpackholiday: It means that we consider the previous deal ended ... and yes, with it all other arrangements.
Chamnix says:
i believe daghda said that once the rep deal was consumated then our previous agreement was "null and void"?
Whomp says:
it expires with peace the way i read it
Chamnix says:
i don't understand
Whomp says: we both have fulfilled our part of the republic for techs deal
Whomp says:
as long as all techs are included. we are at tech parity
Whomp says: the only remaining part to fulfill is the peace part of the agreement
Drummer Boy says:
what we said in the announcement, IIRC, is that we would like a clean sheet after the rep deal is done in a satisfactory way
Chamnix says:
so you believe the peace deal is still in effect?
Whomp says: if we are at tech parity
Chamnix says:
we thought Daghda meant you were cancelling the peace portion once republic was traded regardless of what techs were involved
<later>
Whomp says:
sorry i was clarifying the peace part of the deal
Whomp says:
needed to review again
Drummer Boy says:
everything is cool
Whomp says:
so after both of us receive techs our deal is complete
Whomp says: except for the 10 turns of peace
Chamnix says:
so we are at peace unless 10 turns warning is given, and no warning has been given so far, correct?
Drummer Boy says: correctemundo
Whomp says:
actually i think it was terminate the peace was 10 turns
<later>
Whomp says:
after republic and the techs are exchanged the deal is complete
Whomp says: then we can either renegotiate peace or turn it off. there is 10 turns minimum of peace after the deal is done
Whomp is searching for:
there is also 10 turns warning
Whomp says: if you or we say no then there's also a 10 turn warning from there
Chamnix says:
i think we agree....
Chamnix says: mandatory 10 turns peace after republic, then peace unless someone gives 10 turns warning?
Whomp says:
the peace part is complex. lol
Whomp says:
i'll have daghie post
Drummer Boy says:
i think you have it there Cham...
Drummer Boy says: after rep is in we have 10 turns of no declaring anything
Whomp says:
brb
Drummer Boy says: after those 10 turns one side can declare that they will strike in 10 turns, but not before
Chamnix says:
got it
Drummer Boy says:
i think we agree there
Drummer Boy says: that is the current deal as i read it
As the above correspondence examples indicate, it was very clear to us that KISS intended to leave the tech-trading restrictions part of our treaty behind - and so we didn't think twice about moving on also. We were not relying solely on Whomp's words, but chats with multiple members of KISS confirmed the meaning of your official correspondence.
TNT was always a second choice as partner for us - we would much rather return to KISSMIA. Unfortunately, due to the perceived strain in KISSMIA, we were forced to agree not to provide you with techs traded with TNT as a caveat they placed on the deal, and we cannot break our word. We realize there will be strain caused by our being ahead in technology, but we hope there is a way to work around this – after millennia of friendship it would be awful to see our continent descend into the same type of destructive warfare that has plagued the Battle Isle.
As a team, we highly value our honour. Please understand that if we had believed that KISS expected the trade restrictions to still be in place, we would not have done anything that could be taken as us breaking our word. (refer to our polytheism deal – even though we didn't see things the same way, we honoured what KISS understood to be MIA's promise.)
Regardless of how all the issues in our past happened – the bottom line is that you scared us immensely when you repeatedly signalled (in chats and official correspondence) your intention to abandon the treaty that has made both our empires rich and strong.
We panicked, and scrambled to find a new ally to save us from what we were certain was an impending attack. However, since Whomp confessed to mis-communicating your intentions with us, we have found new reason to hope that perhaps it was not your intention to bring our mutual peace to a violent end.
We would therefore like to offer a gift of Ivory for 20 turns as soon as you have completed a harbour, as a sign of goodwill and as a simple starting place to get back on the road to peace beyond the stipulated and agreed turn 104.
If peace is attainable is KISS actually more preferably than TNT? That is what the letter implies, but I am not sure if we are just saying that or we mean it. In my opinion, peace would be good but TNT should be our prefered trading partner.
TNT may be the safest, but I have a feeling our research is going to be a lot faster than TNT's. KISS would be far more able to keep up with us, so with them we really could have 2 teams pull away from the other 2.
I'm not really disagreeing - peace comes first, and if we get that, then we will see where to go from there.
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... but the highlights of transcripts are in italics ... I think it important as a stress for our interpretation.
