KISS Files - Term 5

[classical_hero]

I believe that we should "try" and get a peace clause into the trading agreement with KISS. I seriously doubt they will go for it, but it will mean we know where we stand with them. While I doubt they will go for this, we should try this and get the formalities of war over and done with.

 

[classical_hero]

So - is KISS officially breaking their word on our treaty now?
Did they just forget to send Republic somehow?

As i posted earlier, it is not a big deal, because we are not losing out too much with this happening, because all we get is one tech and they would get quite a few techs in exchange. I for one was not in favour of the first Republic deal because we were giving KISS too much for one tech. It is amazing that we were willing to give heaps for one tech and they still did not like the deal. It shows how much friends they are.

 

[peter grimes]

I'm thinking we should give them a chance to correct this obvious oversight --- but we should NOT rub their noses in it! Just approach it like it was a genuine mistake (unlikely, though it may be), and give them a face-saving out.

Meanwhile, we need to draft a 'History of KISS/MIA relations' that we can offer to DNUT and TNT to let them know the character of our northern neighbors.

Idiots, indeed!

Oh, in case anyone is wondering, that Gallic Swordsman in the NW near AW Athens is a different one than we saw before. This one is a veteran, and I find it a real stretch to believe that since turn 81 (last contact with Regular GS) the RegGS wandered, found a barb, advanced in rank, circled back around to our north, all without being seen

I'm still trying to keep track of the regular, he could be as close as 6 tiles from ChuckNorrisVille. In other words, we could lose a town on turn 102

 

[classical_hero]

Idiots, indeed!

They must be really stupid..

 

[peter grimes]

The real question I have is: How stupid do we let them believe we are?

They had wanted permission to drive a stack of GS to our SE coast, north of Ithaca. My brain started working: Maybe we can use that as a trap - timing is the problem.

But wouldn't it be glorious if they marched the troops down there, confident in their treachery, only to have a trap sprung on them?!

catapults all around, swords and hoplites.... but there's just not enough time to put anything like that together.

 

[classical_hero]

The real question I have is: How stupid do we let them believe we are?

They had wanted permission to drive a stack of GS to our SE coast, north of Ithaca. My brain started working: Maybe we can use that as a trap - timing is the problem.

But wouldn't it be glorious if they marched the troops down there, confident in their treachery, only to have a trap sprung on them?!

catapults all around, swords and hoplites.... but there's just not enough time to put anything like that together.

That does sound like a godd thing to do. Set a trap for them to fall into and we punce and kill all there attaacking units. Excellent thinking.

 

[General_W]

yeah - I thought about the trap thing also. It WOULD buy us some time to get ready while they march their forces down.

Couple of problems though.

1) In the letter we sent we already told them we suspected a trap. It'd be hard to reverse course without looking too suspicious.

2) We'd need city walls and a lot of hoplites in our core AND on our front lines - effectively doubling our defensive job.

3) Even with walled and hoplite defended cities, roving Gallic Swords could MURDER our infrastructure. Those 2 move buggers will eat us for lunch.

so anyway - sounds good on paper - but I just don't see any way it could actually work out well for us.

 

[Chamnix]

Received a PM from Tubby Rower:

can you get on MSN?

we need to chat

My reply:

I'm actually working today so I can't access IM stuff - I will be home in a few hours if you are still going to be around then. I will also post your request in our forums to see if anyone can talk to you sooner.

 

[peter grimes]

going out now.... won't be available to chat until after 10pm EST (3 am GMT) at the earliest.

 

[Chamnix]

I'm having a long chat with Whomp and Daghda... not over yet, but we are on a break. Just so I don't keep you guys in the dark, here is the unedited transcript so far:

Hellos
Whomp says:
Chamnix?
Chamnix says:
hi there
Drummer Boy says:
Hi Cham...Daghie here
Chamnix says:
hi
Whomp says:
Hi Cham

Right to Poly
Whomp says:
We got your trade back but no poly
Drummer Boy says:
you just made the deadline
Chamnix says:
we didn't think poly was included in our first deal
Whomp says:
all techs
Chamnix says:
i don't think it is clear, but we take our word seriously
Chamnix says:
if you strongly feel it was included, then my gut is MIA will probably give it to you anyway

What happened to Republic?
Whomp says:
we will clear the table and send republic unaccepted again.
Chamnix says:
you didn't send republic the first time
Whomp says:
dagh?
Drummer Boy says:
yes i did
Chamnix says:
i guess you meant to
Drummer Boy says:
rep was in...not accepted
Drummer Boy says:
very...Very strange if it didn't show up
Chamnix says:
it definitely did not show up, but no harm done
Drummer Boy says:
i was very "step by step" in doing that thing
Chamnix says:
you missed a step
Whomp says:
we should have the admins check the save
Chamnix says:
ok
Chamnix says:
whatever happened with the embassy snafu?
Drummer Boy says:
@Cham, hehe, I might but I doubt it
Whomp says:
we can have ginger or regent check it

Back to Poly
Drummer Boy says:
even if it wasn't right by me, I take it you don't want to put Poly in there if rep comes next turn?
Chamnix says:
well, we don't think we "owe" it to you based on the signed agreement, but we are probably willing to give it to you anyway in the interest of friendship

Dagh screwed up
Whomp says:
Cham Rik checked the save and it was not included. We will forward it this turn
Chamnix says:
ok

Back to complementing me
Whomp says:
you're doing a great job improving score!
Chamnix says:
thanks, but we still have a long way to go to catch you guys!
Chamnix says:
peace is helping us both enormously

The free tech again
Whomp says:
my biggest concern is you will be leaving us in the dust with your free tech but that's your trait
Whomp says:
a fast pace is good for you
Chamnix says:
we will certainly sell it to you at a discount
Chamnix says:
we want to continue to work together

Dagh's an idiot
Drummer Boy says:
i'm a bit silent because i feel like a schmuck
Chamnix says:
lol
Chamnix says:
must be a bug in the game

Reminiscing of trusting times
Drummer Boy says:
i try to remind myself of that wheel that once came rolling our way
Drummer Boy says:
must have hit my head
Chamnix says:
you nearly made our heads explode with the Philosophy mumbo-jumbo you gave to us
Drummer Boy says:
i think we have a good reason for bringing that up
Drummer Boy says:
wanna hear?
Chamnix says:
absolutely

Why they don't trust us
Drummer Boy says:
turn 77 TNT has no philo
Drummer Boy says:
we inquire
Drummer Boy says:
turn 78 TNT has philo
Drummer Boy says:
donsig sends the save and mails us within 1 minute
Drummer Boy says:
MIA "whistles" at the save they get
Drummer Boy says:
how strange they popped a GH in the very moment we asked them
Drummer Boy says:
or finished researching it the same turn
Drummer Boy says:
or is it more likely they called you guys and made a deal?
Drummer Boy says:
what would you say?
Drummer Boy says:
also remarkable fe dodged the question by "not remembering because it was a long time ago"
Drummer Boy says:
when actually it happend only 5 turns earlier
Drummer Boy says:
before he went awol
Drummer Boy says:
and how come "the trade happened a long time ago" when TNT popped it?

We're honest!!!
Chamnix says:
I can't speak for fe's memory, but I solemnly swear to you that MIA did not gift Philosophy to TNT, trade Philosophy to TNT, or help TNT obtain Philosophy in any way, shape or form.
Chamnix says:
I'm looking at my turn 78 update - I noted that TNT discovered Philosophy, just as you did
Chamnix says:
as far as my "whistling" at the save, that was because of a comment someone on KISS made...
Chamnix says:
they said I seemed very focused and apparently that bothered them, so I wanted to try to insert a little humor in the updates.
Chamnix says:
the turn was zipped off to us, I unzipped and whistled thinking of unzipping other things
Chamnix says:
i understand your suspicions, but i don't know how much more strongly i can put that we did not trade philosophy to tnt
Drummer Boy says:
you cannot Cham
Drummer Boy says:
i can see what you're saying

What else?
Chamnix says:
was that the main cause of the mistrust?
Drummer Boy says:
way before that fe stated that Poly would Never be part of the rep. deal. That can also explain some...
Chamnix says:
i don't remember the context of that, but i can definitely understand why that would trouble you

My turn
Chamnix says:
poly can definitely be part of the Rep deal as long as we are going to remain friends
Chamnix says:
we are very troubled by your cancelling our previous arrangement
Whomp says:
we are not cancelling the deal but we feel poly must be part of that deal
Chamnix says:
i believe daghda said that once the rep deal was consumated then our previous agreement was "null and void"

What is the peace deal?
Whomp says:
it expires with peace the way i read it
Chamnix says:
i don't understand
Whomp says:
we both have fulfilled our part of the republic for techs deal
Whomp says:
as long as all techs are included. we are at tech parity
Whomp says:
the only remaining part to fulfill is the peace part of the agreement
Drummer Boy says:
what we said in the announcement, IIRC, is that we would like a clean sheet after the rep deal is done in a satisfactory way
Chamnix says:
so you believe the peace deal is still in effect?
Whomp says:
if we are at tech parity
Chamnix says:
we thought Daghda meant you were cancelling the peace portion once republic was traded regardless of what techs were involved

Temporary Hiatus
Drummer Boy says:
@Cham// will you be on for, say, 20 minutes?
Chamnix says:
sure
Drummer Boy says:
Good, will you excuse us if me and Whomper go powder our noses?
Chamnix says:
lol - powder away
Drummer Boy says:
we'll get back soon

 

[Chamnix]

The chat is continuing. I thought it was over, then Tubby came in. Here it is pre-Tubby:

Back to Business
Whomp says:
cham
Chamnix says:
i'm here
Chamnix says:
you're back faster than i expected
Whomp says:
sorry i was clarifying the peace part of the deal
Whomp says:
needed to review again
Drummer Boy says:
everything is cool
Whomp says:
so after both of us receive techs our deal is complete

What is peace exactly?
Whomp says:
except for the 10 turns of peace
Chamnix says:
so we are at peace unless 10 turns warning is given, and no warning has been given so far, correct?
Drummer Boy says:
correctemundo
Whomp says:
actually i think it was terminate the peace was 10 turns

Come again?
Chamnix says:
i don't see the distinction
Whomp says:
two different things iirc
Chamnix says:
i still don't understand (sorry)
Chamnix says:
i guess you have to treat me like an idiot
Whomp says:
hehe
Whomp says:
let me see if i can explain the interpretation
Whomp says:
after republic and the techs are exchanged the deal is complete
Whomp says:
then we can either renegotiate peace or turn it off. there is 10 turns minimum of peace after the deal is done
Whomp is searching for:
there is also 10 turns warning
Whomp says:
if you or we say no then there's also a 10 turn warning from there

Agreement!!
Chamnix says:
i think we agree....
Chamnix says:
mandatory 10 turns peace after republic, then peace unless someone gives 10 turns warning?
Whomp says:
the peace part is complex. lol
Whomp says:
i'll have daghie post
Drummer Boy says:
i think you have it there Cham...
Drummer Boy says:
after rep is in we have 10 turns of no declaring anything
Whomp says:
brb
Drummer Boy says:
after those 10 turns one side can declare that they will strike in 10 turns, but not before
Chamnix says:
got it
Drummer Boy says:
i think we agree there
Drummer Boy says:
that is the current deal as i read it
Drummer Boy says:
and i realize i've must have been unclear with fe about it
Chamnix says:
i think we are now anyway
Drummer Boy says:
or we misunderstood each other...dunno
Chamnix says:
i think we are *clear* now anyway, lol
Drummer Boy says:
yeah

Longer Peace?
Chamnix says:
any interest from KISS in making a new deal with a longer warning period?
Drummer Boy says:
ok, sorry for messing the sending of rep up
Chamnix says:
no problem

Hemming and Hawing
Drummer Boy says:
we will have to talk about how such a deal could be done
Drummer Boy says:
as you can understand from what we have thought about your dealings
Drummer Boy says:
we have been hesitant
Whomp says:
as well we are concerned about not being at tech parity
Whomp says:
even though that's your trait it doesn't give us a lot of trading options
Chamnix says:
neither of us will have many trading options soon anyway
Drummer Boy says:
hehe

Change of subject
Drummer Boy says:
TNT will love us when we enter the Doughnutian shores
Chamnix says:
for a little while they will...
Chamnix says:
not as happy once we turn north after Doughnuts are gone
Drummer Boy says:
prolly not
Drummer Boy says:
but would very much see you as a part of that mission
Chamnix says:
we can't let you grab the entire other continent by yourselves, now can we?
Drummer Boy says:
lol
Drummer Boy says:
66% it is, right?
Chamnix says:
yep, lol
Whomp says:
would it make sense to hit them both?
Drummer Boy says:
you can get 30% over there and 5% here....hehe
Whomp says:
it might loosen up their troops and they've both gotta be gassed
Drummer Boy says:
both will have a 2 front war

Back to Peace
Chamnix says:
maybe, but i'm not sure either of us can be confident sending a lot of troops overseas with only 10 turns warning

More hemming and hawing
Drummer Boy says:
earlier i suggested we observe each others shipping of troops
Drummer Boy says:
so we know what has left home turf
Drummer Boy says:
and, most of all, what is left
Drummer Boy says:
roughly at least
Chamnix says:
i didn't think you could see what was in a galley
Drummer Boy says:
if you have 3 hoppies on one coast tile and a galley nearby, when the Hoppies are gone, if they don't swim; they're in the galley
Drummer Boy says:
that is if we have a unit adjecent to them
Chamnix says:
ok, but it still seems so much easier just to sign an agreement not to attack each other instead of having to waste troops being observors
Drummer Boy says:
you may be right

The answer is no
Whomp says:
let's table that. i think both are good targets
Chamnix says:
ok
Drummer Boy says:
well, as i said, we've been somewhat worried about that tnt-deal, but I think Whomps got a point
Chamnix says:
i'm a little hurt that you don't trust us, but hopefully we will convince you over time
Whomp says:
it works both ways

One idiot down
Drummer Boy says:
i'm sure you would have had the same thought Cham, but let's move on. I've gotta get
Drummer Boy says:
good talking to you Cham
Whomp says:
night daghie boy
Drummer Boy says:
catch you laters
Chamnix says:
you staying on whomp?
Chamnix says:
later daghie

Drummer Boy has left the conversation.

Whomp says:
yeah i'm here
Whomp says:
watching football

Let's talk luxuries
Chamnix says:
how long till you can complete a harbor?
Chamnix says:
our people are thirsty

Hemming and hawing again?!
Whomp says:
i'm not sure
Whomp says:
our coastals are pretty small
Chamnix says:
jesterton?
Whomp says:
hmm
Whomp says:
that's possible...we can always switch
Chamnix says:
you are certainly not going to let me tell you what to build
Chamnix says:
but it seems a wines for ivory deal is a no-brainer
Whomp says:
yes
Whomp says:
we plan to get a harbor. we will talk about it

OK, I get the point
Chamnix says:
ok, you let us know
Chamnix says:
we have a harbor and we have excess ivory hooked up and waiting to go
Whomp says:
ok cool
Whomp says:
are you anywhere close to hooking up spices or dyes?
Chamnix says:
not too far
Whomp says:
that may be better than spending the shields on a harbor until we get a GA
Whomp says:
and faster
Chamnix says:
i doubt it would be faster
Chamnix says:
were working but jungle goes slow
Whomp says:
harbor 80s?
Chamnix says:
60 in c3c
Chamnix says:
i think
Whomp says:
right
Whomp says:
no that's right
Whomp says:
we can prioritize that
Whomp says:
we would love to get some buildings up
Chamnix says:
you will be able to switch next turn
Whomp says:
yeah it's just a question whether we need the lux or the markets and libs
Whomp says:
that's why i was asking about the roads

But you can't escape that easily
Chamnix says:
actually with our workers slowing down for anarchy, it could be some time before the roads are done
Whomp says:
ok cuz we have them hooked up so we have 5 already
Chamnix says:
ahhh
Chamnix says:
but you have at least 1 size 7 city
Whomp says:
hmmm....you're very observant young grasshoppah
Chamnix says:
lol
Chamnix says:
well, of course you will build whatever is in your best interests, but we would greatly appreciate it if you decided a harbor was in your best interests
Whomp says:
i'm sure it will happen soon
Whomp says:
do you need them bad?
Whomp says:
running up the lux?

Plant the first seed of not revolting right away
Chamnix says:
not too bad in despotism
Whomp says:
republic early...ow
Chamnix says:
it will be a good thing eventually
Whomp says:
always is

Little off topic
Whomp says:
when you play in your solo games is that all you use?
Whomp says:
feud for a culture victory
Chamnix says:
most of the time Republic
Chamnix says:
only use the others for unusual circumstances

But we might not revolt
Chamnix says:
but i don't have the final say on government
Chamnix says:
that's Domestic minister dept
Whomp says:
variants are the only time i play anything else
Whomp says:
hard to discount the benefits

Is Republic really that great anyway?
Chamnix says:
i just don't know whats best in multi
Chamnix says:
how easy is it to win an overseas war in rep
Chamnix says:
against humans
Whomp says:
you definitely have to think different
Whomp says:
they'll use siege weapons and as well try to take them and use them against you too
Chamnix says:
thats not fair - the AI doesnt do that!
Whomp says:
i know
Whomp says:
the AI sends settlers in front of a stack of swords too
Whomp says:
but won't land on them lol
Whomp says:
workers that is
Chamnix says:
this game has been a learning experience for me
Chamnix says:
lots of fun

Can I go yet?
Chamnix says:
anything else we need to talk about?

 

[Chamnix]

My impression of the chat at that point was:

1. We need to give Poly.
2. We have peace until 104.
3. War will happen on 104 or soon after.

Tubby has given me a little reason to think war can be averted, but certainly nobody should get their hopes up too high.

I'll work on editing the above during their pauses...

 

[Chamnix]

It's finally over, and my conclusion is still the same as it was. Let me know if anyone else sees anything different in there:

Tubby Rower has been added to the conversation.

More hellos
Chamnix says:
hi tubby
Whomp says:
tubby wants to say hi
Tubby Rower says:
Hi, how was work

Griping about jobs deleted...

To business
Tubby Rower says:
Have you guys heard anything from TNT?
Tubby Rower says:
we have a 2 hp reg curraph off of our shore that jsut showed up
Chamnix says:
they don't chat much
Whomp says:
brb guy
Whomp says:
s

Chamnix says:
but we talk some via email and PM

Construction?
Chamnix says:
trying to trade for construction, but communicating that way takes days to weeks
Tubby Rower says:
they have construction?
Chamnix says:
not yet, but they are researching it
Tubby Rower says:
ah, what have you offered?
Chamnix says:
we were talking about poly and lit - i don't think it is a firm offer yet

How's the war going?
Tubby Rower says:
any news of the war... no one talks to us anymore
Chamnix says:
no firm news
Chamnix says:
they both talk vaguely
Tubby Rower says:
it seems as though it's going very slowly for both
Chamnix says:
i think so
Chamnix says:
i think if there was a significant breakthrough like a city destroyed, they would brag about it
Tubby Rower says:
oh yeah
Tubby Rower says:
they've been bragging about unit victories
Whomp says:
i think the immortals stalled on the mountains

The Golden Age of Battle Island come and gone
Tubby Rower says:
at least their GA is burnt
Chamnix says:
are they both over?
Chamnix says:
i don't remember when they started
Tubby Rower says:
they should be
Tubby Rower says:
I don't remember either but I think that it was turn 55-60
Tubby Rower says:
when things started getting hot
Chamnix says:
Doughnuts started well before TNTs I think
Chamnix says:
TNT couldn't win for a while
Tubby Rower says:
Robi said in the turn tracker--------Turn 59 sent to our good friends TNT
Chamnix says:
so they are done
Tubby Rower says:
A very enjoyable turn 64 sent to TNT
Tubby Rower says:
sent by Robi
Tubby Rower says:
I think that is where it started

Out comes the butter again
Whomp says:
cham you've added 10 more points...what kind of whip do you use?
Chamnix says:
lol, i dont even look at the scores
Chamnix says:
its only because we are lower than you that we can increase faster
Tubby Rower says:
you've been the turn-around in MIA

Free tech again
Whomp says:
but now you'll be up construction and a free tech
Chamnix says:
we sent you an agreement with construction but you didn't want to sign it

BS Tubby-style
Tubby Rower says:
mainly because #1 went against our previous agreement
Chamnix says:
what was #1
Tubby Rower says:
republic for currency, hbr, lit, and crap I forgot the 4th tech
Chamnix says:
i think you misread it
Chamnix says:
im looking for it now, but im pretty sure it had all 5 techs listed

Oh, wait, that wasn't the problem
Whomp says:
there are 7 if you include construction and the free tech
Whomp says:
that we are down
Chamnix says:
construction was covered - you would pay 50% of gold only if it cost us gold
Tubby Rower says:
what if you trade for techs straight up?
Chamnix says:
we would give it to you
Chamnix says:
it says we will provide const.
Chamnix says:
if we spend money for it, then you reimburse us
Tubby Rower says:
half
Chamnix says:
right

But we want more!!
Tubby Rower says:
and the free MA tech?
Chamnix says:
you are right that was not in the agreement
Chamnix says:
but we can talk about that now if you want
Tubby Rower says:
sure
Chamnix says:
we feel we should get something for it
Tubby Rower says:
like?
Chamnix says:
we had talked about 50% of the beaker cost
Tubby Rower says:
of your cost sure
Chamnix says:
lol

What do you want?!
Chamnix says:
what do you think would be fair?
Tubby Rower says:
for whom?
Chamnix says:
both?
Tubby Rower says:
it's hard to say. What we think would be fair, you guys won't and vice versa.
Chamnix says:
try us
Tubby Rower says:
well for us to help each other in the MA, it would be highly beneficial for you to give it to us
Tubby Rower says:
but that's not fair to MIA
Tubby Rower says:
giving MIA gold would hamper KISS's research and therefore help no one
Chamnix says:
no one?
Tubby Rower says:
not if we are to run away from the other continent
Chamnix says:
maybe you could pay us after the other continent is out of the picture
Tubby Rower says:
how?
Chamnix says:
payment deferred until say TNT and Doughnuts both are under 5 towns
Chamnix says:
just as an example (I have no idea if MIA will agree to this)
Tubby Rower says:
hmm

MIA was too agreeable, so change the subject
Tubby Rower says:
Cham, I just finished playing the turn before I got online with you and sent republic back to you
Chamnix says:
cool
Chamnix says:
thank you
Tubby Rower says:
hope you get a short anarchy
Chamnix says:
thanks

Who needs Republic?
Chamnix says:
im not even sure if our Domestic Minister will order the revolt right away though
Tubby Rower says:
why not?
Tubby Rower says:
Anarchy is what we did best
Chamnix says:
our luxes aren't all connected yet
Chamnix says:
some on our team are concerned with lux spending
Tubby Rower says:
how many have you secured, 4?
Chamnix says:
weve settled all, but the jungle ones aren't hooked up yet

Oh, wait, I just thought of another excuse
Whomp says:
cham one concern about construction is we could trade for it.
Whomp says:
instead of pay you.
Chamnix says:
the plan was if we trade for it using techs, we would have given it to you
Chamnix says:
you wouldn't have to pay
Whomp says:
k
Tubby Rower says:
but we have no say in what you pay for it
Tubby Rower says:
maybe we could broker a better deal
Chamnix says:
ok
Chamnix says:
I think you trade for it and we pay you will be OK with us

Once again, being agreeable results in subject change
Tubby Rower says:
did your warrior in the north take out a barb camp?
Chamnix says:
in the northwest
Chamnix says:
?
Tubby Rower says:
yes near the forests by the coast
Chamnix says:
i don't think so
Chamnix says:
i think the only camp we cleared was in the center of the jungle
Tubby Rower says:
you play the turns?
Chamnix says:
yes
Tubby Rower says:
between the spice mtn. & dye mtn.?
Chamnix says:
yes but a bit south
Tubby Rower says:
Cham, have you played any civ 4?

Deleted chat about civ 4, SG's, and MTDG participation levels

Good Byes and Good Nights

Tubby Rower says:
I have to head on to bed fellers
Tubby Rower says:
I'm still recovering from some chest nastyness
Whomp says:
night tubs
Chamnix says:
g'night
Tubby Rower says:
have a good nite

Tubby Rower has left the conversation.

Chamnix says:
anything else we need to talk about?
Whomp says:
i don't think so i was posting our talk and watching football. i think we both need to think what the next step is
Whomp says:
whether we can work out techs
Whomp says:
and whether a 2 front or 1 front war is in the future
Chamnix says:
ok - I know MIA would like an extended peace deal, and a luxury swap, so whenever you are ready to
Chamnix says:
seal those deals, let us know
Whomp says:
ok will do
Whomp says:
have a good evening
Chamnix says:
you too
Chamnix says:
later
Whomp says:
bye

 

[Rik Meleet]

Dagh screwed up
Whomp says:
Cham Rik checked the save and it was not included. We will forward it this turn
Chamnix says:
ok

For fairness reasons; I confirm that I tested this on KISS' request. Civ 3 PBEM has no way to check what a team has offered or not.
I was also asked to check how Team MIA obtained Poly, but naturally I refused to do that.

Nice summary-style; Cham.

 

[General_W]

WOW.

Thanks for doing all that Chamnix!
What a marathon chat!

As Domestic Minister I hereby declare tomorrow a national holiday in honor of President Chamnix.

(and I’ll secretly increase work hours by 10% for the following 10 days to get that time back – so as not to slow the war production)
After reading all that, I agree with Cham’s impressions.

We’ve got till turn 104 to get our defenses up (thank goodness!) and peace is toast after that.

There’s NO WAY I’ll ever agree to giving them our free MA tech for free. Personally – after all this garbage and them treating us like fools, I’d really rather just cancel the whole trade – but we don’t have enough defenses to be able to seriously consider that.

Bottom line: they are getting a MUCH better deal and a whole truck-load of techs and they’re still not happy.

KISS is being unreasonable, and I think they know it. We might as well complain about their extra food or their short anarchy. “But it’s no fair!! You’ll only be in Anarchy for 1 turn! You must surrender to us or we’ll cry to our mommies!”
Bah!

So I say we play nice – stall like crazy on making any more trades – crank out hoplites like bunnies in heat – try to lock TNT and Dnuts into anti-KISS arrangements, and get ready for the inevitable KISS attack.

 

[azzaman333]

WOW.

Thanks for doing all that Chamnix!
What a marathon chat!

I agree, that was a fantasic effort by Cham.

After reading all that, I agree with Cham’s impressions.

We’ve got till turn 104 to get our defenses up (thank goodness!) and peace is toast after that.

If they are going to attack us, we will know for sure at turn 94.

There’s NO WAY I’ll ever agree to giving them our free MA tech for free. Personally – after all this garbage and them treating us like fools, I’d really rather just cancel the whole trade – but we don’t have enough defenses to be able to seriously consider that.

If our free tech was Mono, then I wouldn't be too worried about it. Of course, we 'could' stop KISS from making their Gallics if we gave them Feudalism (provided they trigger their golden age). We would have to decide whether the bigger threat is the Gallic or the Mace.

Bottom line:

they are getting a MUCH better deal and a whole truck-load of techs and they’re still not happy.

We arent really in a position to stand up for ourselves atm though.

KISS is being unreasonable, and I think they know it. We might as well complain about their extra food or their short anarchy. “But it’s no fair!! You’ll only be in Anarchy for 1 turn! You must surrender to us or we’ll cry to our mommies!”
Bah!

So I say we play nice – stall like crazy on making any more trades – crank out hoplites like bunnies in heat – try to lock TNT and Dnuts into anti-KISS arrangements, and get ready for the inevitable KISS attack.

I still have some trust in KISS, but we need to be prepared for a change of heart. The turns leading up to 94 should be used for war preparations, since we will know then if they want to attack us ASAP.

 

[azzaman333]

This is a direct quote from the deal we made with KISS.

7. MIA and KISS are at peace. Since both of us can't really know what new developments will be in the future, our peace deal is basically unlimited, and can only be terminated at least ten turns beforehand. This shall not be done, before at least 10 turns have passed after the discovery of Republic.

I'll repeat the key sentence (IMO)

our peace deal is basically unlimited, and can only be terminated at least ten turns beforehand

If KISS attacked us, they'd have to give us 10 turns to prepare.

And something else i just thought of. If KISS attacked us and destroyed us, TNT and the Nuts might gang up against a sprawling KISS. KISS would have the same amount of land and cities (in theory) as Nuts and TNT combined, but the much more productive TNT + Nuts land (due to corruption) would likely kill off KISS. What would KISS have to gain from attacking us now?

 

[peter grimes]

And something else i just thought of. If KISS attacked us and destroyed us, TNT and the Nuts might gang up against a sprawling KISS. KISS would have the same amount of land and cities (in theory) as Nuts and TNT combined, but the much more productive TNT + Nuts land (due to corruption) would likely kill off KISS. What would KISS have to gain from attacking us now?

I don't think KISS will be able to wipe us out completely - only with a decisive technological gap, which they won't have for anytime in the foreseeable future. I, too, started to have nightmares about KISS just walking over all these 'culture wall' cities that have nothing but farmers in them. But our core?... they'd never be able to take that with their current technology.


As for the Chat: Kudos to Chamnix. I was really hoping to be able to help; our friends showed up embarrasingly late, which put our whole evening back by 1 1/2 hours

I'm glad that cooler heads are prevailing. I agree that we have to build up defenses as if KISS just declared their intentions to attack. Then, if they do, we'll at least have something for them to push against. If they don't, we'll work out the unit cost as we go. As I posted in the Grand Strategy, I'm still on the side of switching to Republic (but only after turn 94).

 

[Black_Hole]

Perhaps Kiss is waiting for us to get into anarchy before they attack? If I was them, I would want my opponent in anarchy, then attack.

 

[fe3333au]

Brilliant work Cham ... and the letter drafters ... as mentioned to Gen_W and Daghs and in the Absent thread, I was disigning and initiating a fireworks display which was 7th and cleaning/sleep on 8th ... this was my legitimate reason for absence

I think that it is worth giving Polytheism for time to bolster our defences

Unfortunately Whomp and I never hooked up for a chat during this time, however their intentions have been made perfectly transparent.

Here's how I see things ...

After this deal we are free from any further obligation to KISS, except the minimum of 10 turns of peace.

Any future trading should be treated as one-offs ... and no further elongated mutual pacts should be entered into, unless microscopically analysed.

We are also free to discuss future plans with other teams ... bearing in mind that D-Nuts are the more untrustworthy of the two.

Again goodone MIA