KISS Files - Term 6

[gbno1fan]

What if we offerred territory (that we will secure through war) to any of the other nations that help us win?

For example, if Dnuts and TNT help us keep up with them economically or with techs, we agree to give them some cities on the northern end of our continent?

 

[General_W]

You're married, aren't you? In our relationship, KISS is the woman. Logic, facts, and who is actually right have no place in discussions with KISS.

Indeed! However, I made a vow to God to love and honor my wife. I don't believe I've made any such promises to KISS.


Your strategic analysis seems right on the money – but that's why TNT's sudden peace with Dnuts is so puzzling. TNT must know that they're now doomed. Maybe after a severe beating KISS will decide they'd rather stay in the game and wait for an ally and another opportunity… (just like TNT).

I think the parallels between our situation and that of the Dnuts is remarkable.

What you've said is the most logical thing to happen… but I am not about to accuse KISS of being logical.

Getting down to business however…
The only real problem I see with your letter is that if we open the door to let KISS think they may get tech out of us (when we have no real intention of giving them any) we just set up their fragile egos to be disappointed.

Do we want to throw KISS a lifeline for peace? YES.
Do we want to give KISS false expectations and just delay the war? NO​

If the only way to avoid war with KISS is to give them tech – then we might as well continue with the war preparations.

Even though parts of your letter induce a gag-reflex in me, I'm really ok with all of it except the very last sentence.

If you have ideas regarding how we can satisfy you and return to a genuine peace, please let us know.

Maybe we could delete it and replace it with my suggested last paragraph?
Or maybe something very simple like…

We are ready for war and won't be blackmailed – but if you'd like to put an honest peace proposal on the table, we'll gladly and promptly respond.
(For example, a 20, 30, or 50 turn guaranteed peace with a ongoing 10 turn cancellation notice policy would certainly be welcome)

That would leave them with no illusions about our response to them demanding all our MA techs for peace, and would sorta offer them a proposal like they requested/demanded.

 

[General_W]

What if we offerred territory (that we will secure through war) to any of the other nations that help us win?

For example, if Dnuts and TNT help us keep up with them economically or with techs, we agree to give them some cities on the northern end of our continent?

See! This is the kind of dimplomatic brilliance that I think we may be able to pull off!
Even if it's less dramatic, I have a lot of faith that we can run diplomatic circles around KISS.

P.S. Don't miss my post above!

 

[Chamnix]

Your strategic analysis seems right on the money – but that's why TNT's sudden peace with Dnuts is so puzzling. TNT must know that they're now doomed.

I don't think TNT realizes they are doomed. After all, they thought building the Mausoleum and building libraries when they were at war with someone 40%+ stronger than them were good ideas. I think they figure that with their tech lead, they will have the edge in round 2 with the Dnuts - KISS won't have a tech lead on us to fall back on.

but I am not about to accuse KISS of being logical.

I did mention KISS was like a woman, right?

Do we want to give KISS false expectations and just delay the war? NO

I agree with you about false expectations being a problem, and I'm not entirely sure what to do about it, but I think delay is good - every turn we get closer to knights before the war starts is better for us.

I'm really ok with all of it except the very last sentence....Maybe we could delete it and replace it with my suggested last paragraph?

I like your suggested last paragraph and agree it belongs. However, I also think that in some form or another, we need to ask "What do you want?". If we don't offer anything specific, and don't imply that we are willing to give something, then we might as well not bother.

What if we offerred territory (that we will secure through war) to any of the other nations that help us win?

Unfortunately, Dnuts aren't stupid. Would they really accept land in the northern part of our continent - completely corrupt and easy for us to capture whenever we felt like it - in exchange for helping us dominate our continent? I don't see that as realistic.

 

[peter grimes]

Thank you for your continued efforts to salvage the peace. Every time things look bleakest on our continent, you bring a renewal of hope.

You are correct that each of us have distinct advantages and disadvantages currently - so much so, that it is highly unlikely that either of us could win a war against the other, certainly not quickly or decisively. On the other hand, it is looking more and more certain to us that the Dnuts are more than a match for TNT. It seems very clear now that if KISS and MIA fight, then Dnuts will win the game. The biggest single reason that peace is in both our interests is that it gives us both the opportunity to win the game.

You are behind in tech currently, but that is certainly not permanent. Since techs only cost 70% of monopoly beakers for you, you would certainly be able to catch up even without trades with MIA, but we understand that you felt betrayed by us, and we are willing to make amends to speed your advancement.

However, you must understand that we cannot help you with Monotheism or Feudalism. Regardless of your feelings about our previous actions, our word is important to us, and we will not break our deal with TNT. Currently undiscovered techs, however, have no restrictions.

In the long-term, a renewed partnership is definitely in both our interests. In the short-term, we are not sure what we can offer you. We previously offered to gift you ivory, but you dismissed that as unhelpful to you. If you have ideas regarding how our two great teams may return to a genuine peace, please be specific.

Make no mistake. The way we read the game, KISS loses more by waging war with MIA than you'd gain; but we do not fear you. If it's to be war, we will do our best to end it quickly in our favor before the Dnuts run away with the game. If you honestly think that fighting us at this point in time improves your chances of winning, then so be it. You actions for the last 20 turns have prepared us to accept that this war is inevitable. But frankly, we think you're committing suicide, and the only reason seems to be a desire to take us down with you. If you will agree to a secure peace, and work to salvage the once great Green Alliance, we see several scenarios where you are able to win, and, to be perfectly honest, we're OK with that. We would rather compete with you in GDP (where we both nullify the threat from the other teams) than on the battlefield, while the others overtake us both.

The above is my attempt at amalgamation. Please read it through carefully, as I have melded both Chamnix's main letter with General_W's brilliant closing. I have also made several changes within both, though they aren't marked. All of the changes I've made are based on the preceding discussions.

 

[fe3333au]

OK ... had chat before even read any of this ... so I hope you are happy ... and this with disorientating flu-ish symptoms

fe3333au: hey Bernie
bawhomp: hi werndog
fe3333au: dog is right ... had a bad night and just woke up ... feel fluy
bawhomp: i sent you a pm
fe3333au: I am just reading it and it has also been posted on the KISS thread by Chamnix
bawhomp: ok
fe3333au: so bear with me ... I am very foggy and a little disorientated ... hopefully tea will help

Let's Start ... Background
fe3333au: The issue came down to separate interpretation of the things that happened ... and it is evident that both teams feel that they were in the right ... so disengaging our respective opinions and feeling is a big hurdle ... however I KNOW that MIA do not want war ... so if KISS also do not want war ... then there is hope for peace ... in principal at least.

Both sitting facing ... glass of pure sweet water and little crispy treats on table
fe3333au: Problem is where to start.
bawhomp: ok
bawhomp: we can't offer each other anything but peace
fe3333au: at this stage ... yes ... although we are open to disuss any options to create a less tense environment
bawhomp: there's not much we can contribute so peace would be a start

Options and More options ... for respective teams to discuss
bawhomp: how long?
fe3333au: as long as is possible ... our status is that at the moment we have 2 MA techs on you that we are unable to trade ... TNT stipulation ... however after that we are untethered

<Equal Division of Land>
fe3333au: We are more than happy to divide the continent in half ... would that help?
bawhomp: maybe
bawhomp: i think we should be given some consideration in that regard
bawhomp: extra space
bawhomp: we gave you the jungle lux space and in hindsight shouldn't have

<Dye Monopoly>
fe3333au: Good possibility ... also we only have one dye in city radius ... if Flaxon Musk doesn't expand then we will remain with only one and perhaps you could grab the other and therefore have monopoly on trading this lux?
bawhomp: it's a start
fe3333au: brb just getting panadol ... btw lst was x-post

<Half Price next Tech>
fe3333au: back ... what about our next tech half price?
fe3333au: These are only thoughts as well
bawhomp: we could work on that. we would appreciate that
bawhomp: how many turns?
fe3333au: well we have been concentrating on other matters too busy to research hard ... but I think that it would be in the late single digits ... sorry cannot concrete you a number at this stage ...
bawhomp: late single meaning 7,8,9 turns?
fe3333au: yes-ish ... as I said I don't have that info and MM would have to happen

<Turns of Peace>
bawhomp: are you saying 7-9 peace turns?
fe3333au: No until we get the next tech ... peace I would hope run for longer but have a X turn cancellation clause (very well worded so as not to be open to misinterpretation)

<Longer Peace Preferable>
fe3333au: What sort of number would you be comfortable with.

<Ivory given freely>
fe3333au: We could also give Ivory so you wouldn't have to negotiate it from TNT
bawhomp: ok

<Peace would be Longer>
bawhomp: i'll ask the team about peace. i don't think they'll go for a long cancellation clause. this past one was a mess and it still is an issue
bawhomp: 40-50 turns maybe?

<Respect of Boarders>
fe3333au: Also a respect boaders .... in fact if we divide the continent then ... no unauthorised entry would have to be also agreed to

<Progress>
fe3333au: Oh I see what you mean 40 or 50 turns of peace that it unalterable ... We would certainly agree to that
bawhomp: ok that's probably the best thing to start on. one thing at a time
bawhomp: separate agreements
fe3333au: yes ... easy language
bawhomp: k

Recap for poor sick me
fe3333au: so can you recap for me?
bawhomp: 40 or 50 turns of peace
bawhomp: others
bawhomp: furs
bawhomp: settlement
fe3333au: fur? ... don't you mean Ivory?
bawhomp: ivory right everyone has furs right?
fe3333au: yes well we both do
bawhomp: 1/2 price on tech
fe3333au: settlement is half land you the other us ... you get dye monoploy

Let's not get ahead of ourselves
bawhomp: ok let's start with peace first
bawhomp: then get that done
bawhomp: the others need work
fe3333au: sorry I will not interrupt if I want expanded i will simply press ?

Magic Words
bawhomp: let's bring peace to our teams ... and get something done. I think I can work that out in KISS ... with the understanding that there will be some opportunity to expand separate deals
fe3333au: yes
bawhomp: one deal at a time is the key methinks

Recap again ... sorry but anal is good in this situation
fe3333au: so recal one last time ... I will not interrupt only if I get confused

bawhomp: peace
bawhomp: furs
bawhomp: settlement
bawhomp: ivory not furs
bawhomp: dye monopoly
bawhomp: 1/2 price on tech
fe3333au: what does settlement mean?
bawhomp: 50/50

fe3333au: peace for 40 to 50?
bawhomp: yes
bawhomp: i will try 50 but we'll see ... maybe 40 with 5 turn cancellation

Tension Leaving Room
fe3333au: I am really feeling good about this
bawhomp: ok well let's work on this
fe3333au: will you guys draft something?
bawhomp: i will work on it ... tomorrow
fe3333au: excellent
fe3333au: I'll post this chat now ...

After thought
fe3333au: Will Grinder move or not until we agree in concretre?
bawhomp: i think it's a possibility
fe3333au: and so is Bede's Boat getting home
bawhomp: i will suggest a stand down along with your horse
fe3333au: mot sure what horse ... is there one in your territory?
bawhomp: starting to threaten
fe3333au: What exactly means standdown ...
bawhomp: back off
fe3333au: move away?
bawhomp: yep
fe3333au: agreed
bawhomp: posted.
fe3333au: I am still edditing
bawhomp: i'll have something for you tomorrow. i think our icicles will melt a bit
fe3333au: to make snow cones
bawhomp: :-D
fe3333au: actually did you know that when you put glacial ice chips in a drink the pressure causes the ice to fizz and pop ... due to pressure of CO2 expanding?
fe3333au: Antarctic guys told me this :-D
bawhomp: wow...cool
fe3333au: not experienced yet

 

[peter grimes]

Great job, Fe! You may have just saved us a TON of money!

But the devils will be in the details, I suppose. I eagerly await them.

 

[gbno1fan]

Wow, excellent chat, Fe!

 

[General_W]

Wow.
Nice work, as always, Fe!

I feel like, in some small way, I now know a little bit about how JFK must have felt after the Cuban Missile Crisis.

Disaster... narrowly averted.

I’m amazed that after all this aggressive action, KISS is suddenly wanting a 50 turn peace deal with no strings. It feels like a dream… or a trap… but Whomp does seem sincere.

It will be MOST interesting to see what KISS actually comes back with. The idea of giving up on any chance to trade Luxuries with the other continent makes me a little nervous – but that’s a discussion for another time.
If we get a straight offer of peace – clearly that would be wonderful.

KISS may think that they can just out-build our military in those 50 years, and hit us then… but I’m optimistic our defenses will be able to hold... a lot will happen in the next 50 turns (that’s half again as long as we’ve played this game!)

Now, as they say, the ball is in KISS’s court.

 

[fe3333au]

Feel a little better after meeting in Pub ... getting our social club happening with new publican

I was alittle nervous about dye monopoly option, however 'monoploy' is a word that expands to a concept ... which will add the nail to the deal methinks ... Whomp did mention about resevations regarding allowing us to build Lux centered cities ... but we still have spice ... and hopefully if TNT gain acess to whatever the hell lux they were talking about, we still have access to trade for all luxes ... (just means spice is traded with D-Nuts for the non-TNT lux)

Anyway ... it is does mean peace ... the best option we have ... so next step awaiting KISS responce ...

Wow .. that was the most difficult chat ... not that Whomp was difficult, but more that I was in Cotton Wool Head Space at the time

We can but wait ... it also means no Golden Age for a while ... but ... methinks better this way.

 

[Chamnix]

Awesome job, Feaurius. They have 3 dyes to our 1, and there is nothing we can do about it (short of war), so I'm really not sure what that is all about.

However, I have to say, we have been on this section of the roller coaster before - let's wait to see their actual offer.

 

[classical_hero]

I say that we should continue on the war path despite of the last chat, because I have had enough of them changing their minds. They must be worried about us since they want such a long time period forr [eace.

 

[peter grimes]

Small point of correction - their peace offer of 50 turns is just under half what the last peace was.

The 7 Tiers guaranteed peace for as long as it took to research Republic, plus 20 turns. Republic was discovered on 84.

I wouldn't mind seeing that peace deal last even longer. And, as you all are well aware, I've got no problems sticking my tail between my legs and saying, most sincerely, "I'm Sorry". If that's all it takes to assure peace, then that's a small price to pay for assuring the defeat of both DNUTs and TNT.

 

[peter grimes]

I just reread the Dyes references. Here they are for easy reading:

Fe3333au: Good possibility ... also we only have one dye in city radius ... if Flaxon Musk doesn't expand then we will remain with only one and perhaps you could grab the other and therefore have monopoly on trading this lux?

bawhomp: it's a start

......

bawhomp: peace
bawhomp: furs
bawhomp: settlement
bawhomp: ivory not furs
bawhomp: dye monopoly
bawhomp: 1/2 price on tech
fe3333au: what does settlement mean?
bawhomp: 50/50

fe3333au: peace for 40 to 50?
bawhomp: yes
bawhomp: i will try 50 but we'll see ... maybe 40 with 5 turn cancellation

So all it means is that we keep our one dye, and KISS may grab the remaining one, so they are the only ones able to trade it.

Quick little thought just popped in, and now it won't go away - -

We have galleys. We have a settler factory still up and running. We aren't going to be able to trade for the other continent's luxuries. See where I'm going with this? In 12 turns we could be harvesting silks!

 

[gbno1fan]

So all it means is that we keep our one dye, and KISS may grab the remaining one, so they are the only ones able to trade it.

I'm okay with them being the only ones able to trade it as long as we have our 1 available to citizens.

We have galleys. We have a settler factory still up and running. We aren't going to be able to trade for the other continent's luxuries. See where I'm going with this? In 12 turns we could be harvesting silks!

Nice thought, but how would TNT and Dnuts react to this? We don't want to piss them off right after making peace with KISS.

 

[classical_hero]

I find this arrange an insult to our great people. It is basically first come first served. If they do not like the fact that we could get thes luxuries for ourselves and trade them, then tough, because this favours them too much and we should allow them to trample on us like they did before we finaly showed some nerve and told then where they should stick the previous deal and we got stronger as a result. Now we are going back to the way it was before. Well I am not going to stand for this. If they want such outrageous terms for a deal they broke, then I tell them where they can shove this deal.

 

[peter grimes]

It is basically first come first served. If they do not like the fact that we could get thes luxuries for ourselves and trade them, then tough, because this favours them too much

Do not forget that the only reason we have any jungle luxuries is because we negotiated a settlement plan for the jungle with KISS. KISS, if you recall, planted a town on the dyes. We flipped. We were furious, and they placated us by agreeing to settle the jungle in such a way as to let both of us profit.

Don't be so quick to dismiss KISS. We need them at peace if we are going to have a chance at becoming stronger in this game.

If they want such outrageous terms for a deal they broke, then I tell them where they can shove this deal.

Let's not fall into that trap. We won't get anywhere. We have a chance to take control of the game back into our hands. We can't afford to blow it.

Look at how great we've played so far: We are the de facto Diplomatic Hub and Scientific Hub. The other teams lack direction. We've done an excellent job till now, and I hope to see us keep it up through the Middle Ages as well.

 

[fe3333au]

oops ... just looked at map ... got the Flaxon Musk bit correct ... so actually mean spices.



Because Chuck Norrisville has 2 dyes already within the borders AFAIR.

No problem ... will be fixed next chat or we can correct the proposal that KISS will be soon sending.

Reason we should give them monopoly ... they beat us to both lux resources and could very well have grabbed them all for themselves ... things got tense back then as well remember?

 

[Chamnix]

Ah, spices - I have to say that changes things. I'm not sure I like the idea of conceding a spice monopoly. Quite frankly, I'm a little upset that Feaurius brought that up. That is a concession that we had not discussed as a team at all, and Whomp didn't bring it up, and KISS may never have thought of it. Now if we decide we don't like that idea, it is a little tricky to take that back.

As far as them having the possibility to claim all, that really was not true. There is no one settler they could have placed to claim all 4 spices. The tension was caused by our ignorance of the map and thinking there was only one source of spices and one of dyes - in reality, they didn't concede anything.

Regardless, they want one deal at a time. They send a peace deal over, we debate it and decide whether to sign it (seems likely to be yes). They send a luxury deal over, we debate it and decide whether to sign it being secure that we already have peace. One deal at a time works better for us since we will be required to give no concessions until peace is signed.

We still have to wait to see if Whomp can really convince his teammates of anything.

 

[fe3333au]

Awesome job, Feaurius. They have 3 dyes to our 1, and there is nothing we can do about it (short of war), so I'm really not sure what that is all about.

Then ...

Ah, spices - I have to say that changes things. I'm not sure I like the idea of conceding a spice monopoly. Quite frankly, I'm a little upset that Feaurius brought that up. That is a concession that we had not discussed as a team at all, and Whomp didn't bring it up, and KISS may never have thought of it. Now if we decide we don't like that idea, it is a little tricky to take that back.

Why the change in attitude ??? ... and what does it matter if we give them Dyes or Spice monopoly ... in fact Spices is more logical as we already (correct me if I am wrong) have 2xDyes in Chuck Norris.

Also ... I was listing possible options and no-one was around ... soooo ... what's the difference ???