KISS Files - Term 6

[Chamnix]

The difference is they have a dyes monopoly, and we can't do anything about it - we are not giving them anything. Now we are talking about them having monopolies on dyes and spices - that's a real concession.

We don't have 2 dyes in Chuck Norrisville - we have 1 source of dyes, they have 3.

 

[fe3333au]

Oh ... stand corrected ... wasn't it lucky that I mentioned dyes then

 

[Chamnix]

I know, you just like putting yourself in challenging situations to see if you can talk your way out of them.

 

[peter grimes]

One thing we could put out there (after the initial things get worked out, of course) is an approval clause for any and all trades with the OC.

Remember how they really hated the way we were able to trade circles around them? KISS might feel more secure if they thought they had us on a leash. But really, the leash would be around them as well. They might be able to have a jungle lux trading monopoly, but that doens't mean that we have to let them use it.

Besides - if we plant a town to grab silks, their monopoly will go down significantly in value.

I know this is more of a Grand Strategy comment, but we concievabl could plant a town on the OC coast, rush a harbor, then rush a temple. We'd get two silks. The cost of the harbor and the temple would be bourne by the option of trading a silk, while using one ourselves.

 

[gbno1fan]

I'd prefer it if we don't have the approval clause. We have proven that we can beat them to any possible trades. We don't need to have them on a leash. Why allow them to have us on one?

 

[peter grimes]

I would never agree to a one-sided (unilateral is such a clumsy phrase!) leash... but it wouldn't surprise me if they propose one. The point I'm trying to make is that the threat of a luxury trading monopoly is vastly reduced if all trades with the OC must be approved by the partner.

 

[fe3333au]

Arrived by the sleakest Racing Pigeon I have ever seen ... this one is NOT for the pot

Title ... Peace Treaty

Werner,

aI'm not good at naming agreements so I'll leave that to you.
I'll try to keep it as simple as possible.


Peace treaty agreement

• Peace will last through turn 154. Extensions can be discussed to at any point in this agreement.
• All units will "stand down" from their current aggressive actions and no roads will be cut.
• The Green Continent will be split in half for 50/50 settlement. North and South.
• A Middle Age technology will be offered at half price by MIA to KISS that is not one of the two techs MIA received with TNT (per their agreement) nor a tech KISS is currently researching.
• Free ivory to KISS for 20 turns
• Capability within those 50 turns to settle the remaining dyes by KISS

.

 

[Chamnix]

I guess they are being deliberately vague, but there is a lot of room for misunderstanding there. The devil is in the details as always.

Peace will last through turn 154. Extensions can be discussed to at any point in this agreement.

So no units in each other's territory until 155? This one should at least be easy to clarify.

All units will "stand down" from their current aggressive actions and no roads will be cut.

How did I know they wanted to cut roads not in our territory and claim it wasn't an act of war?

The Green Continent will be split in half for 50/50 settlement. North and South.

Sounds good, but it is very vague. I'd also like to point out that I think their dyes town is already in the southern half.

A Middle Age technology will be offered at half price by MIA to KISS that is not one of the two techs MIA received with TNT (per their agreement) nor a tech KISS is currently researching.

I guess we pick the tech and the time we offer it. Anytime before 154, or anytime before we exit the Middle Ages?

Free ivory to KISS for 20 turns

Fine.

Capability within those 50 turns to settle the remaining dyes by KISS

I really don't like this one. Everything else is temporary, but this puts us at a permanent disadvantage. Is it worth going to war over? Probably not - if KISS says it is this deal or war, then I would probably take this deal. On the other hand, if we say OK except MIA has the opportunity to settle those spices instead of KISS, would KISS go to war over it?

We are making concessions over techs and ivory, and they have 3/4 dyes - I don't see a need for a spice concession.

 

[fe3333au]

Chatted about it ...

bawhomp: i'm sending the pm
fe3333au: thanks mate
bawhomp: on it's way
bawhomp: read it and i'll check back
fe3333au: k
fe3333au: I will post from now on ...

Clarification of Points

Roads
fe3333au: What does no roads cut mean ... is it no roads pillaged?
<answered other questions so repeated>
fe3333au: and the cuting road means destroying and not building roads ... cos our workers are 'cutting' roads through jungle at the moment ;-)
bawhomp: it means no pillaging non bordered roads
fe3333au: understand ... this time I was being pedantic LOL

Peace
fe3333au: Since no cancellation clause ... Peace is therefore concretedly garanteed to Turn 154?
bawhomp: i think a concrete final is better don't you?
fe3333au: yes ... I'm just being anal ;-)
bawhomp: like i said it can be renegotiated

Dye Monopoly ... Nicely done I may add
fe3333au: I think you already have dye monopoly ... I thought there was one unclaimed ... so that clause should therefore be removed as you are already can form a dye franchise.
bawhomp: ok on the dyes.
fe3333au: sorry that was my fault ... blame it on my hammering head at the time

Continental Divide ... Ideas
fe3333au: I guess the only other thing needing to be nutted out would be to work out where the halfway line between the continent is ... being difficult as we cannot send maps ... therefore I suggest we pick a landmark and draw a parallel line.
bawhomp: that's what i'd say ... it's impossible to say in the agreement ... but we can add that
fe3333au: Just looking at map ... your Dyetown amd our Spicetown (Flaxon Musk) are past each other ... so we whould have to 'excuse' existing settlements ... and also if borders extend that is ok ... Therefore it would have to mean that the Continental Divide is where no future cities can be built past (guess we work on wording and position)
fe3333au: anyway we can discuss this later
bawhomp: exactly

fe3333au: off the top of my head the big mountain overlooking your dyrtown could be a good place to starting place for discussion
bawhomp: ok
fe3333au: :-D ... just received turn as well so I will post the chat now

 

[Chamnix]

on the dyes - working out the center line will take some time. Unfortunately, I don't think the extra spices are on our half of the continent, but I think we want to make sure we get them. If only Meleet had seen fit to make his divine creation a perfect rectangle...

 

[fe3333au]

A cultural expansion could see to that ... or colony.

Just thoughts

Actually cash rushing a Library could work ... built this turn KISS wouldn't be able to distinguish between Temple or Library ... it would enable the spice to be grabbed in next 4 turns

 

[peter grimes]

Capability within those 50 turns to settle the remaining dyes by KISS

fe3333au: I think you already have dye monopoly ... I thought there was one unclaimed ... so that clause should therefore be removed as you are already can form a dye franchise.
bawhomp: ok on the dyes.

Excellent - Whomp didn't mention that he really meant spices. I think that culture-rushing to grab the remaining spice is incredibly risky. It could be seen as a negotiating this treaty in bad faith. Settling on them, however, would be more honest.

But at the very least, when we send back a treaty, we should make certain there is no mention of dyes nor spices anywhere. Hopefully they won't balk.

 

[Chamnix]

I agree there should be no mention of dyes, but I'm a little nervous about not telling them up front we believe those spices are ours. We are agreeing to split the continent 50/50, and to claim those spices may involve settling on their half.

 

[fe3333au]

Draft

• 
  Peace treaty agreement
  
  1. Peace will last through turn 154. Extensions can be discussed to at any point in this agreement.
  2. All units will "stand down" from their current aggressive actions and move back into their own territory, no roads will be pillaged on the way.
  3. The Green Continent will be split in half for 50/50 settlement. North and South. <This will require a lot of work due to both teams having settlement on either side of the Continental Divide*
  4. During the peace any unit must be granted permission prior to entering the half controlled by the other tream.
  5. Naval units must equally be granted permission to be one tile from a cultural border.
  6. A Middle Age technology will be offered at half price by MIA to KISS that is not one of the two techs MIA received with TNT (per their agreement) nor a tech KISS is currently researching.
  7. Free ivory to KISS for 20 turns

* I'm thinking due to the RIK symmetry, and the fact that the luxes are in a square formation ... would the Continental Divide be between the lux groupings?

 

[gbno1fan]

Peace treaty agreement

1. Peace will last through turn 154. Extensions can be discussed to at any point in this agreement. Cancellations cannot be discussed until turn 134, and a cancellation is defined as not renewing the agreement. Neither team may opt out of peace before turn 154.
2. All units will "stand down" from their current aggressive actions and move back into their own territory, no roads will be pillaged on the way. "Standing down" is defined as returning to their own half of the continent, as discussed in number 3.
3. The Green Continent will be split in half for 50/50 settlement. North and South. Current settlements, as of turn 104, are excused from this clause. Any future settlements in the jungle area, prior to turn 154, must be approved by the other nation. <This will require a lot of work due to both teams having settlement on either side of the Continental Divide*
4. During the peace any unit must be granted permission prior to entering the half controlled by the other tream.
5. Naval units must equally be granted permission to be one tile from a cultural border.
6. A Middle Age technology will be offered at half price by MIA to KISS that is not one of the two techs MIA received with TNT (per their agreement) nor a tech KISS is currently researching. The specific half-price technology must be agreed on by turn 140.
7. Free ivory to KISS for 20 turns.

These changes are intended to make the agreement a little clearer, to prevent any future misunderstandings.

 

[gbno1fan]

You know, I was just thinking - do they have anything to offer to us? I suddenly feel like we're buying peace from them, when we're the stronger team.

 

[General_W]

To me, KISS controlling 3/4 of the dyes and 1/2 of the Spices is more than fair. Why not be open about that?

I'd like to see our rights to the 1 remaining open spice specifically coded into the treaty with KISS.
Otherwise we're left without trading options.

Whatever we end up proposing on the 50/50 split, I'd like to see it AT least say - the MIA gets 1/2 of the Spices.

In-fact, why couldn't we ask for KISS to gift us one of their extra dyes?
If we're splitting the continent 50/50... then shouldn't we have half the spices and half the dyes? (KISS can keep cultural control... but they could gift us the dyes - or look at it as a trade for Ivory)

Thoughts?

 

[Chamnix]

I don't think KISS has the option of gifting us dyes while we have our own source, but I'm agreeing with you that I would be more comfortable being open about our future 2nd spice town.

 

[General_W]

ok - well, all the more reason then...

Look KISS - we're more than happy to agree to a 50/50 split of the land - however, since you already control 3/4 of the dyes and 2/4 of the Spices, we trust there will be no problem with us setteling the last remaining Spice. This still gives you an edge in luxury control, but we are prepared to overlook this.

Or something to that effect?

 

[fe3333au]

Can someone draw a line through the map that equally divides the 2 x 4 clusters of dyes and spice ... Rik with his love of symmmetry would have placed these equidistant.

Else ... get the Library rushed !!! ... it would solve the problem !!! ... it is so much easier to justify an action (made when war was looming) that has led to an expanding border, than to try to get a concession to possibly build inside thheir borders in these raw times ... I already know what KISS will say ... come on Guys !!! you all do ... they will say ... We were foolish to allow you access in the first place ... right or wrong is irrelivant at this point but this is what they will say.

The question is ... Do we want peace or not ?!!! ... Because I see this issue as being a biggy and will cause big problems if it happens ...

We can always shore up another city next to it if possible ... depends on the Continental Divide.

Again ... Let's do it now so that we at least can legitimately claim our extra spice.