KISS Files - Term 6

[fe3333au]

These changes are intended to make the agreement a little clearer, to prevent any future misunderstandings.

Originally Posted by ADDITIONS IN BOLD, DELETIONS IN RED
Peace treaty agreement
[
1. Peace will last through turn 154. Extensions can be discussed to at any point in this agreement. Cancellations cannot be discussed until turn 134, and a cancellation is defined as not renewing the agreement. Neither team may opt out of peace before turn 154, the peace may be extended from turn 155 onwards.
2. All units will "stand down" from their current aggressive actions and move back into their own territory, no roads will be pillaged on the way. "Standing down" is defined as returning to their own half of the continent, as discussed in number 3.
3. The Green Continent will be split in half for 50/50 settlement. North and South. Current settlements, as of turn 104, are excused from this clause. Any future settlements in the jungle area, prior to turn 154, must be approved by the other nation. This will require a lot of work due to both teams having settlement on either side of the Continental Divide*
4. During the peace any unit must be granted permission prior to entering the half controlled by the other tream.
5. Naval units must equally be granted permission to be one tile from a cultural border.
6. A Middle Age technology will be offered at half price by MIA to KISS that is not one of the two techs MIA received with TNT (per their agreement) nor a tech KISS is currently researching. The specific half-price technology must be agreed on by turn 140.
7. Free ivory to KISS for 20 turns.

Whomp mentioned that there was to be no clauses ... peace is garanteed to turn 154.


@gbno1fan .. regarding your comment about us buying peace ... of course we are, some citizens do not like the idea and feel that because we are stronger then we are in a better position ... but bottom line KISS' initial strike on our flanks would have casued us no end of problems and I think that they would also have been followed by a strike on a lux town.

But the bottom bottom bottom line is that we are paying for PEACE ... I guess we should place a value on it ...
1. Ivory (useless if in war ... in peace it stops a potential trade with Nuts)
2. 50:50 Continental Division ... what we wanted anyway.
3. No units in territory ... we have explored most of their accessible lands already.
4. Peace until Turn 154 ... time to grow and also get defences setup NOT at the last minute, also get more cities in our Cultural Wall which will allow swift reinforcement.

... I think it is worth it.

 

[gbno1fan]

Maybe we can change that line to read that if a team wishes to not extend the agreement in turn 154, notice must be sent to the other team by turn 134, otherwise it is automatically renewed for 20 turns?

I don't know, I'm just trying to find a way to make sure we know if there is peace or no peace on turn 155.

 

[Chamnix]

Else ... get the Library rushed !!! ... it would solve the problem !!!

How does it solve the problem? In 4 turns we get a cultural expansion and the spices are inside our borders. Two turns after that, KISS plants a town on the tile west or northwest of the spices (just outside our borders) and the spices are back within their borders. No amount of culture will ever get those spices back.

 

[fe3333au]

Why ?! ... don't you want to have confirmed peace for turn 154 ... I do

Also why allow KISS out of this concreted peace.

EDIT ... misinterpreted ...

But I don't like it ... the automatic thing just complicates things (but that is just me ... see what others think)

 

[fe3333au]

How does it solve the problem? In 4 turns we get a cultural expansion and the spices are inside our borders. Two turns after that, KISS plants a town on the tile west or northwest of the spices (just outside our borders) and the spices are back within their borders. No amount of culture will ever get those spices back.

Would that not be considered an aggressive action after a peace has been sign ?!

OK ... if Library is a problem ... plant the town now with our settler.

 

[Chamnix]

Would that not be considered an aggressive action after a peace has been sign ?!

Yes, it would... but what would we do about it? Would we go to war then? They technically would not have broken the deal since they would have plopped a town on an unclaimed tile possibly on their half of the Continental Divide. We have zero recourse at that point.

OK ... if Library is a problem ... plant the town now with our settler.

We can try to settle there ASAP, but our settler is a good 8-9 turns from there I think.

I think the point is that if this is going to be a huge issue for KISS, why not find out now? We can -

A. Tell KISS we think the spices belong to us and see what they say. Maybe they just agree to it since we are making all the other concessions, and they have 3/4 dyes. But at least we find out now if it is a choice between spices and war and make an informed decision, or

B. Bury our heads in the sand, try to claim the spices later, and hope KISS doesn't claim we broke the deal by settling their half of the continent and sneak attack us when we are not prepared.

I don't think that's a tough decision.

 

[Chamnix]

@gbno1fan - Regarding the peace deal, I think Whomp was pretty clear that KISS wants a "self-cancelling" deal. If we get to turn 140, and we want peace, then we ask for an extension. If they don't agree, we know what that means.

I think the original peace until 154 is fine.

 

[ybbor]

How does it solve the problem? In 4 turns we get a cultural expansion and the spices are inside our borders. Two turns after that, KISS plants a town on the tile west or northwest of the spices (just outside our borders) and the spices are back within their borders. No amount of culture will ever get those spices back.

but that would be putting a town down in the jungle area, which we need to approve, right?

 

[Chamnix]

Yes, you are right if gbno1fan's modifications are accepted by KISS.

I'm not sure they would go for that clause - and I'm not sure I like it either. I understand the point is to make sure both teams agree on the Continental Divide so it is not just formed by "facts on the ground", but we are going to want several jungle towns, and I don't really like asking KISS' permission before each one, and I doubt they would like asking MIA's permission any better. KISS really seems to be living up to their acronym and trying to simplify things.

But if that clause goes through, then rushing a library makes a lot of sense.

 

[General_W]

Just for the Record, the Domestic Department's official position (meaning, my opinion) is that we should have explicit agreement from KISS that those spices belong to MIA.

Once they agree to this – whether we get it by library or by settler is up for debate (but a settler would make a lot more sense).

I recognize that this is a decision for the Foreign Ministry – but I think we're just asking for trouble if we don't get the issue out on the table.
KISS already views us (at best) as slippery double-tongues that worm out of treaties or (at worst) treaty breakers. Knowing that they view us this way, it seems foolish to deliberately do anything that we KNOW will upset them. (like trying to claim spices they may view as "theirs") We can see this train wreck coming - Let's at least talk with them about it!

At least, that's my 2 cents.

 

[peter grimes]

The Spices Issue is a big problem here. But I think we may be losing sight of the larger picture. Specifically, exactly how much are the spices worth to us?

God, this feels like a chapter from Frank Herbert....

A War over spices is not worth it. We have all the spice we need. If we can claim another, that's powerful. But I really don't think that KISS is going to run away with the game if they tell us the spices are theirs.

I'm not saying we should hand the spices over,.... but I think we should be clear in our minds how far we're willing to push this. In the past, we've had a tendency to press an issue a bit too hard, and that's one of the reasons for the recent Military Buildup. The Buildup has cost us hundreds of Gold and hundreds in Beakers. All of this must be ledgered as waste, as it doesn't add towards our goal of Winning the Game.

As to how to broach the Spice Issue with KISS:

Delay, Delay, Delay!... (It's not just a rallying cry for progressive minded voters this fall!!)

This is not a matter that should be brought up in the first round of discussions. The agenda for the first signed agreement should only include the most important things (like number of turns of guaranteed peace). Let's get signatures on this before moving on to more complex issues, like the spices.

In the first letter that gets sent to KISS, the division of the continent is not to be discussed. The only item on the agenda is Peace. We get KISS to sign the Peace, and then we move on to the Second Step. In the Second Step we discuss the MA tech. This will serve to diffuse the tension, as it's something we are very willing to help with. The Third Step can be unit movement.... the fourth Ivory, and so one. At that point, hopefully we've reached a rapport that can sustain the tension that the spices will invoke. We really must handle the spices carefully. The spices and the division of the continent will all be discussed at the same time, but we should delay that time for a few days.

 

[fe3333au]

Just so I've got things correct ... we will not bring up Spice issue yet and it will probably be discussed when the Continental Divide is plotted.

Therefore I would like to respond to KISS with this then.

Peace treaty agreement

1. Peace will last through turn 154 where neither team may opt out of peace before turn 154, the peace may be extended from turn 155 onwards.
2. All units will "stand down" from their current aggressive actions and move back into their own territory, no roads will be pillaged on the way.
3. The Green Continent will be split in half for 50/50 settlement. North and South. Current settlements, as of turn 104, are excused from this clause. Any future settlements in the jungle area, prior to turn 154, must be approved by the other nation. This will require a lot of work as using landmarks and compass bearings is our only option.
4. During the peace any unit must be granted permission prior to entering the half controlled by the other tream.
5. Naval units must equally be granted permission to be one tile from a cultural border.
6. A Middle Age technology will be offered at half price by MIA to KISS that is not one of the two techs MIA received with TNT (per their agreement) nor a tech KISS is currently researching. The specific half-price technology must be agreed on by turn 140.
7. Free ivory to KISS for 20 turns on signing the agreement.

I'll await discussion, but want to send soon.

EDIT ... I'm thinking clause 3 could use some work ... happy or reword it?

 

[General_W]

I like it!

But I agree, #3 could use some work - as long as we're being vague about everything except peace, let's be vague!

How about this?

The Green Continent will be split, in principle, in half for 50/50 settlement. North and South. Current settlements, as of turn 104, are excused from this clause. The details will be worked out in the future - but both KISS and MIA agree to an essentially 50/50 equitable division of our continent.
(This will require a lot of creative work using landmarks and compass bearings as our only option.)

Better or worse?

 

[gbno1fan]

If we really want to make the agreement vague, then the verbiage provided by GW is better. However, I really oppose having a vague agreement, as I feel that is part of the reason we have had issues with KISS lately.

I think we either need to decide that yes, we are going to have a very vague agreement now and in the next few turns we can pound out the details, or we need to make the agreement as specific as possible now to avoid misunderstandings in the future.

 

[peter grimes]

The letter should be sent shortly, and it should remain vague. All we're trying to do here is establish a framework for future discussions.

Remember: We may still be attacked if we screw this up!

So let's keep everything after Point #1 vague, and simply say something like [/i]Details to be worked out in the next discussions[/i]

But not the Peace part. That should be the only thing we're trying to get signed as permanent right now.

The other things will follow, and we just need to note that in principal, we are agreeing to them.

In a very confused way I'm saying just make sure KISS understands that we dont' expect to have all the minutia worked out immediately, but we are agreeing to the peace first with the expectation that we'll finish off everything else in due time.

 

[gbno1fan]

I can live with that. As long as we work out the details before too long.

 

[Chamnix]

In the spirit of vagueness, perhaps the tech by 140 should be removed too.

 

[fe3333au]

Peace treaty agreement

1. Peace will last through turn 154 where neither team may opt out of peace before turn 154, the peace may be extended from turn 155 onwards.
2. All units will "stand down" from their current aggressive actions and move back into their own territory, no roads will be pillaged on the way.
3. The Green Continent will be split in half for 50/50 settlement. North and South. Current settlements, as of turn 104, are excused from this clause. The details will be worked out in the future - but both KISS and MIA agree to an essentially 50/50 equitable division of our continent.
(This will require a lot of creative work using landmarks and compass bearings as our only option.)
4. During the peace any unit must be granted permission prior to entering the half controlled by the other tream.
5. Naval units must equally be granted permission to be one tile from a cultural border.
6. A Middle Age technology will be offered at half price by MIA to KISS that is not one of the two techs MIA received with TNT (per their agreement) nor a tech KISS is currently researching. The specific half-price technology must be agreed on by turn 140.
7. Free ivory to KISS for 20 turns on signing the agreement.

I left clause 6 as it came from KISS, because I doubt that they will be researching Chivalry and since TNT are researching Engineering we could go for a more beneign technology and pass that one on, either way we should be able to provide it before 140.

EDIT ... working on rewording 6.

 

[fe3333au]

6. A Middle Age technology will be offered at half price by MIA to KISS that is not one of the two techs MIA received with TNT (per their agreement) nor a tech KISS is currently researching. The half-price technology must be sent on by no later than turn 140.

I don't want KISS to be able to choose which technology

I want to send off in the morning 10 hours-ish from now.

 

[Chamnix]

I've kind of lost sight of what we are trying to accomplish with our changes. The original draft from KISS had lots of details omitted and could be clarified, but we seem to have decided that we prefer vagueness so we haven't really clarified much of anything.

If we want to clarify, then let's really clarify and do it right. If we want to keep it vague, then why are we changing anything? The turn 140 clause really does not do any good as far as I can tell. The other changes add a couple sentences that don't really get to the heart of any issue. Why not just remove the part about the spices, and sign their original proposal so we know there is no question about them accepting it?