Kina work on forests too.
Korea
- Thread starter Der_Zorn_gottes
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Kina work on forests too.
It does, as long as there's enough jungle/forest. Specialists consume food, cost urbanization and are very limited. Kuna generates food, doesn't cause unhappiness and you can have many Kuna in your cities (more than scientist slots, that's for sure). With Maya I usually only run culture specialists in expos, working Kuna is better than scientist slot...until endgame, where my population so high that I can afford both Kuna and scientists. But the main reason I don't run many specialists in expos is food - run too many and you will suffocate their growth completely.
It's true they depend on terrain, but the one that is very common. You don't need forest/jungle for every city - in fact Maya is a very strong performer even with 4-5. Some cities you can still run specialists mostly.
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I think for CV you need a strong religion (and TtGoG is game changing). Korea really has nothing for it, not with this high Seowon production cost.
Also if you luck out, and the cultural leader happens to spawn relatively close to you, World Religion + Fealty combo is super strong. You can passively convert founders at this moment because AI is not defending their religion well. Then shared religion bonus kicks in hard.
The first quote is about Maya. The second is about Korea. Read carefully
In my last Korea game I wasn't even the tech leader. Another civ (most likely Ethiopia) entered the Renaissance before me. With Maya I'm consistently first to Renaissance, unless some bad luck happens.
Actually I don't even know what will happen to Korea with the recent ABC science boost. Korea might find themselves catching up until the late game. Maybe I need to try them again with the recent patch.
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It's not. At least before this crazy ABC science AI buff - it made the game too unpredictable
When somebody enters Renaissance before you, it's a clear symptom. They could enter via Astronomy. Science is the only thing that secures wonders, because AI could be easily getting more production than you, or use engineers.
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Depends on the wonder. Several wonders to me are more culture locked than they are science.
chicorbeef
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I do want to mention that Korea highly benefits from a Religion, especially certain beliefs like Symbolism, but has no real means to get it, unlike Arabia, which is another really strong Tradition civ. I think that Arabia is just a better civ, at least in human hands-it has Science at least on par to Korea's, and Arabia has a lot of Culture to boot.
LifeOfBrian
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Hwachas are utterly broken due to logistics. They make Korea, imo, the best warmongering civ in the game, even better than Mongolia, the Zulus, Sweden etc. Just utterly utterly broken.
LifeOfBrian
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Chicorbeef, your point is true about Korea having a harder time founding than Arabia, but:
1.) In this version the founding race is much slower so the human Korea should snag a religion, and
2.) It doesn't matter if Korea doesn't found because Hwachas will ensure they'll easily capture one or more holy cities. Hwachas make Korea a much better civ than Arabia.
1.) In this version the founding race is much slower so the human Korea should snag a religion, and
2.) It doesn't matter if Korea doesn't found because Hwachas will ensure they'll easily capture one or more holy cities. Hwachas make Korea a much better civ than Arabia.
I don't really find Hwachas as broken as people say. They are solid defensively, but offensively they don't get a ton of use out of logistics because of rough terrain and limited siege movement in enemy terrain. And they are worse at capturing cities, unless decently promoted.
LifeOfBrian
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The key to using Hwachas is to either use them defensively or "safely" until they've gained indirect fire or range promotions, and after that you can use them even more freely. Very soon after that they'll get the volley promotion against cities. And once you upgrade them to cannons, they get even stronger because they get the siege bonus against cities like all siege units. With logistics you'll also generate XP much faster, leading to more/faster GGs, enabling you to citadel your enemies and make more room for your Hwachas & units in general. I think they're one of the by far most broken things in VP.
I'll try a playthrough test as Korea - start with just 1 city, as authority (I'll delete the imperium settler), no killing units etc. until Hwachas come online, no building Seowons or using specialists (except for the guilds). See how fast I can catch up and surge ahead.
I'll try a playthrough test as Korea - start with just 1 city, as authority (I'll delete the imperium settler), no killing units etc. until Hwachas come online, no building Seowons or using specialists (except for the guilds). See how fast I can catch up and surge ahead.
Other civilizations that had logistics had it removed from their UU. I think its fine on Hwachas, because they come a little later and require iron for their promotion.
On this current patch, England also has easy access to logistics because their Ships of the Line have access to Indomitable, which leads to logistics. I'm not sure that was intended, as logistics is much stronger for naval combat relatively.
I don't think it was intended. England is a fearsome warmonger on this patch because of logistics.
chicorbeef
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We should take this to the England discussion. I'm not convinced that H'wacha are that OP, they're certainly strong, the split between Range/Logistics in the line does make them relatively more powerful, but still, I don't think Korea outclasses traditional warmongers like Sweden.
After my first ever "back-to-back" Deity wins with the Maya (Progress) and than Portugal (Tradition) I tried Korea for a couple of runs. I had a few disasters and a few decent runs but none were good enough to win. I don't blame Tradition because I think Tradition is doing fine. To me Korea seems underpowered to other Tradition civs like Arabia, Ottomans, Portugal, India and Austria.
When you play Korea you get a shitload of science and that is really nice. The problem is that you pretty much only get science. Even when you accomodate for that in your religion and build order it's just never enough. You need faith to get a religion, production to build what you have researched, food to work your specialist slots and culture for policies. You can fix a few of those areas but not all or most. In my games I often wasn't able to get key wonders because when I researched the tech I was still 1 or 2 policies behind the requirement. I also felt production and food-starved all the time. The way you lose pop for settling and the enormous amounts of food that specialists eat make it very hard for Korea to get all those specialists active. And even if you can get them active you still only get science for it.
Anyways. I'm curious if other people feel Korea (in human hands) feels weaker than the other Tradition civs? If so what could be some buffs to consider?
Just some buff-suggestions as "food-for-thought":
1) specialists eat less food (as a bonus for the unique building)
2) Something that makes golden ages better
3) Just some simple buff to culture production (for example on the UB or give a culture for specialists in the ages that specialists don't get science)
When you play Korea you get a shitload of science and that is really nice. The problem is that you pretty much only get science. Even when you accomodate for that in your religion and build order it's just never enough. You need faith to get a religion, production to build what you have researched, food to work your specialist slots and culture for policies. You can fix a few of those areas but not all or most. In my games I often wasn't able to get key wonders because when I researched the tech I was still 1 or 2 policies behind the requirement. I also felt production and food-starved all the time. The way you lose pop for settling and the enormous amounts of food that specialists eat make it very hard for Korea to get all those specialists active. And even if you can get them active you still only get science for it.
Anyways. I'm curious if other people feel Korea (in human hands) feels weaker than the other Tradition civs? If so what could be some buffs to consider?
Just some buff-suggestions as "food-for-thought":
1) specialists eat less food (as a bonus for the unique building)
2) Something that makes golden ages better
3) Just some simple buff to culture production (for example on the UB or give a culture for specialists in the ages that specialists don't get science)
Korea is a bit more fragile as a Tradition civ than most of the usuals.
A small boost could be
Golden ages points on specialists mean a UA version of Mastery, which could stack. Golden age points don't give yields directly so the specialists aren't overpowered, but having more golden ages helps with everything else, particularly production and culture. The 50 Golden age points with a Great person (which can stack with pyramids) is nice but takes a while to really get going, and it requires working the specialists for a while.
An alternative is to attack the golden age point to farms, so we don't have super golden age specialists with Mastery+UA+Globe Theatre. Korea has had farm bonuses before, with the events and decisions stuff that has since been reworked, and removed respectively. And farms are pretty essential tiles for Tradition most of the time.
Alternatively, perhaps a small food bonus on triggering/during golden ages.
A small boost could be
Golden ages points on specialists mean a UA version of Mastery, which could stack. Golden age points don't give yields directly so the specialists aren't overpowered, but having more golden ages helps with everything else, particularly production and culture. The 50 Golden age points with a Great person (which can stack with pyramids) is nice but takes a while to really get going, and it requires working the specialists for a while.
An alternative is to attack the golden age point to farms, so we don't have super golden age specialists with Mastery+UA+Globe Theatre. Korea has had farm bonuses before, with the events and decisions stuff that has since been reworked, and removed respectively. And farms are pretty essential tiles for Tradition most of the time.
Alternatively, perhaps a small food bonus on triggering/during golden ages.
pineappledan
Deity
GAP on GP expend is the same as GAP on specialist. Specialists generate GPP and you expend them for GAP.
So why not just give more GAP on expend than giving them 2 sources of the same yields which are really the same same source?
So why not just give more GAP on expend than giving them 2 sources of the same yields which are really the same same source?
