chicorbeef
Emperor
- Joined
- Dec 26, 2017
- Messages
- 1,561
Should the Seowon's Production Cost be reduced to fit the same buildings in its tier (like Caravansaries/Amphitheatres)?
Korea
- Thread starter Der_Zorn_gottes
- Start date
Would make it that you have two science buildings at the based classical era (library and university).
It already is that way.
That are classical-era cost instead of 1 medieval-era cost(at classical era) and 1 classical-era cost.
So I think Hiwacha suffers the same problem we have been discussed with slingers and chu-ko-nu. Logistics on a unit that can then grant that promotion in an upgrade is just incredibly powerful, and will mow down anything that comes in range. Hiwacha are decently strong, but then as cannons and field guns the logistics just gets better and better.
phantomaxl1207
King
Are we just going to remove Logistics on all Units?
The problem to me is not that the UU has logistics, but that the logistics is inheritable for its future lines. So I game for a logistics that is lost on upgrade, but people have generally opposed that in the past and I understand why. So...yeah I guess I am, it just seems to be too strong a benefit.
Slingers lost logistics because it was truly broken (some people just throw this word around, but logistics on turn 10 truly breaks the game. It makes all other aspects of the game trivial, because it alone is enough to win). They were without competition the best UU, so they got nerfed.
The ChuKoNu was not broken. It was very good, but not necessarily better than other UU, and China overall was still very strong without its UU. Maybe I'm biased, but I'm still not convinced this nerf was necessary.
The H'wacha is a lot less good than either of those units were. Korea is not well geared towards offensive wars, so its harder to abuse. The civ's UA and UB are weaker than China's IMO. You also need iron to promote H'wacha, meaning you cannot get infinite logistics-cannons. And mass cannons are generally not as good as mass-crossbows or muskets, because a lot of things can kill a cannon in one hit that won't kill archer-line units.
TL;DR
I think the H'wacha should keep logistics; it isn't as strong as the other UUs who lost it.
The ChuKoNu was not broken. It was very good, but not necessarily better than other UU, and China overall was still very strong without its UU. Maybe I'm biased, but I'm still not convinced this nerf was necessary.
The H'wacha is a lot less good than either of those units were. Korea is not well geared towards offensive wars, so its harder to abuse. The civ's UA and UB are weaker than China's IMO. You also need iron to promote H'wacha, meaning you cannot get infinite logistics-cannons. And mass cannons are generally not as good as mass-crossbows or muskets, because a lot of things can kill a cannon in one hit that won't kill archer-line units.
TL;DR
I think the H'wacha should keep logistics; it isn't as strong as the other UUs who lost it.
You make some good points. For me its less about Korea's offensive wars and more of their invincible defensive line. Korea's schtick is to go tall, get ridiculous science, hold the line, and then have units a tier higher than you. Hawacha I find are not as flimsy as you describe once the +49% warmonger bonus is added on Immortal (and its what like +81% on Diety? Jesus...I don't know how you all fight at all at that difficulty). They just seem to mow down anything that gets close, and if you don't control Korea, they seem to inevitably outtech almost anyone by a very large margin. Case in point...my current game they are 18 techs ahead of everyone else right now. I've been fighting modern armor with machine guns
That said your points are valid, and if any of the units so far that had logistics had the right to keep it, it would be this unit.
phantomaxl1207
King
Also, Siege Units become more expansive to upgrade than other Units, but not more than Tanks.
Slingers should not have been given Logistics.
Slingers should not have been given Logistics.
pineappledan
Deity
Also, since field gives access to both logistics and range it doesn’t feel as much like Hwacha are given this massive pass on promotion investment.
phantomaxl1207
King
You can take Field and pick up Splash Damage I & II or Siege and actually attack Cities.
The Seowon is a nice UB, but the production cost makes it so the earlier tect tree unlock adds very little bonus. Korea is already generally a bit production deprived because of specialists and faster tech progression. I bascially had to take the reformation belief that allows purchasing later science buildings with faith, just to keep up.
Also a bit personally unlucky as the first golden age popped before I can grab either the Seowon, or the national wonder that gives golden age boost.
Also a bit personally unlucky as the first golden age popped before I can grab either the Seowon, or the national wonder that gives golden age boost.
Nah, you look at it wrongly. Just because you have high science, it doesn't mean that you have low production. It's only relatively low to science. It just means that you can unlock more buildings faster, not that you would have higher production if you didn't have that high science (even if production would be relatively higher, but it doesn't matter)
I mean I was only starting to build them after the normal tech unlock. Since aiming up the top of the tech tree is needed anyway to get the University of Sankore.
I think there are two ways to play Korea. The first is tradition great person focus. Here, the Seowon's early unlock is unimportant (but it's still a good unique building)
The second is aggressive with progress or authority. Use Hwacha as the last UU with logistics. Here, the Seowon's earlier is really valuable. It means you can building universities but skip education (and drama and poetry) for a long time. You can unlock Renaissance weapons much earlier than a normal civ could.
Melchizedek
Prince
- Joined
- Jun 26, 2007
- Messages
- 324
One reason the Seowon's early unlock is underwhelming is that as Korea you're motivated to get specialists and hit Medieval quickly for the extra beaker on specialists. I often find that Education is the first medieval tech I can open as Korea and I get it anyway because just entering the medieval will be worth +10 science or so. With bonuses to specialists, leaving D&P for later doesn't seem efficient.
CrazyG's idea for aggressive Korea is interesting, but if you're doing the standard tall/specialist Korea, the Seowon isn't that great. Maybe it doesn't need to be, with a pretty good UA and UU.
CrazyG's idea for aggressive Korea is interesting, but if you're doing the standard tall/specialist Korea, the Seowon isn't that great. Maybe it doesn't need to be, with a pretty good UA and UU.
Playing Korea, feels very weak. Science is bigger than average but not high enough to secure wonders on Immortal. I think the UA is weak because it mostly affects the capital - can't run many specialists in expansions.
Seowon as university is a low priority building, too high cost to build in many cities (unless it's a jungle city) - I'm not inclined to rush it instead of the basic infrastructure, and unlocking it earlier doesn't help. It's turn 180 and I haven't built it anywhere except the capital.
Hwacha - is ok unit, I guess, but very situational, other than for defense. Anyway usually I can defend with any units, using carefully picked city locations and fortifications.
So the problem is similar to Maya - but at least Mayan science can get so high that it allows to secure wonders even with low production, and Maya has strong religion - Korea has none (Seowon is a joke)
Also I have never seen a Korea runaway AI. I think it needs a strong buff somewhere.
Seowon as university is a low priority building, too high cost to build in many cities (unless it's a jungle city) - I'm not inclined to rush it instead of the basic infrastructure, and unlocking it earlier doesn't help. It's turn 180 and I haven't built it anywhere except the capital.
Hwacha - is ok unit, I guess, but very situational, other than for defense. Anyway usually I can defend with any units, using carefully picked city locations and fortifications.
So the problem is similar to Maya - but at least Mayan science can get so high that it allows to secure wonders even with low production, and Maya has strong religion - Korea has none (Seowon is a joke)
Also I have never seen a Korea runaway AI. I think it needs a strong buff somewhere.
