[NFP] Kublai Khan Discussion Thread

[8housesofelixir]

I doubt Firaxis would make just that his Ability. I'm guessing we'll see something else in the Leader Ability as well as the Trading Post stuff.

That's my doubt as well, but judging from the video, Kublai doesn't get anything else from trade route - that route to Xi'an is just a normal 3 gold route - at least in the early game. I was thinking like he would at least get "x gold per district in the foreign city" or "x gold per land tile a trade route passed".

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

That's my doubt as well, but judging from the video, Kublai doesn't get anything else from trade route - that route to Xi'an is just a normal 3 gold route - at least in the early game.

I meant something that doesn't have anything to do with Trade Routes at all.

 

[8housesofelixir]

I meant something that doesn't have anything to do with Trade Routes at all.

That would be a dismay, I mean Mongol doesn't need 2 Domination leader.

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

That would be a dismay, I mean Mongol doesn't need 2 Domination leader.

Marco Polo as a Unique Governor or Xanadu as a Government Plaza Replacement, nothing to do with Trade Routes or Domination.

 

[8housesofelixir]

Marco Polo as a Unique Governor or Xanadu as a Government Plaza Replacement, nothing to do with Trade Routes or Domination.

Xanadu is already the capital city of Mongol Kublai.

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

Xanadu is already the capital city of Mongol Kublai.

Something that has nothing to do with Domination or Trade Routes.

 

[notNamed]

Old Chinese had the (voiced) checked tone, which is nearly unpronounceable by most of the modern dominant language speakers, but a Cantonese/Hakka speaker will have no problem pronounce them since these languages still have the tones. IIRC Vietnamese preserved some checked tones from Middle Chinese - the language that Kublai supposed to speak - as well.

Old Chinese wasn't even tonal, actually.

As far as Kublai's Chinese goes, he is actually a really good candidate for Mandarin, especially when compared to Qin (Qin - Old Chinese) or Wu Zetiang (Tang - Middle Chinese). Having set up shop in what is today Beijing. What's more, it is in this era that we start seeing Old Mandarin. Whether it's Phangs-Pa inscriptions or Zhongyuan Yinyun, Old Mandarin is very likely to have been the language spoken by the people around him, if not the khan himself. The fact that Ming sets Nanjing Mandarin as the standard speech of the imperial administration afterwards helps this line of thought even further. Though I don't remember ever reading anything about the language that Kublai himself learned during the time.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

That would be a dismay, I mean Mongol doesn't need 2 Domination leader.

I mean he could do domination in a different way. Like building ships instead of horses.

In all seriousness I can see his abilities playing out like this at least:
With Kublai for Mongolia you want to establish trade routes to other civs that won't only make you stronger with diplomatic access but boost sometimes necessary techs and civics to help you win in combat.

For China he'll just make them a trading civ now.

Marco Polo as a Unique Governor or Xanadu as a Government Plaza Replacement, nothing to do with Trade Routes or Domination.

I doubt he has any of those now considering they confirmed you only need R&F to play him for Mongolia. If you have the base game you can play him for China.

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

I mean he could do domination in a different way. Like building ships instead of horses.

In all seriousness I can see his abilities playing out like this at least:
With Kublai for Mongolia you want to establish trade routes to other civs that won't only make you stronger with diplomatic access but boost sometimes necessary techs and civics to help you win in combat.

For China he'll just make them a trading civ now.


I doubt he has any of those now considering they confirmed you only need R&F to play him for Mongolia. If you have the base game you can play him for China.

Okay... We'll see.

 

[8housesofelixir]

As far as Kublai's Chinese goes, he is actually a really good candidate for Mandarin.

You actually remind me that the modern Mandarin, which is originally a northern Chinese dialect, had received strong influence from Mongolian (and later Manchu) because of the Mongol rule. A lot of the words in northern Mandarin, especially the Beijing dialect, had Mongol origins. So Kublai speaking Mandarin kind of works in this way.

Though I don't remember ever reading anything about the language that Kublai himself learned during the time.

He left two Chinese poems (which are not bad in terms of literary value), so at least he can read and write traditional Chinese.

 

[DogeEnricoDandolo]

Kublai seems to receive Inspirations and Eurekas from sending trade routes. He got Wheel completed and Military Tradition boosted after sending the trade route.

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

Kublai seems to receive Inspirations and Eurekas from sending trade routes. He got Wheel completed and Military Tradition boosted after sending the trade route.

I think we all knew this beforehand. Through our speculation, and some handy tables, we figured out this a LONG time ago.

 

[DogeEnricoDandolo]

I think we all knew this beforehand. Through our speculation, and some handy tables, we figured out this a LONG time ago.

Lol I didn't read this thread. I guess an alt leader draws less attention than a brand new civ

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I think we all knew this beforehand. Through our speculation, and some handy tables, we figured out this a LONG time ago.

To be fair did I completely miss the fact that he gets both a free eureka and inspiration?

So that would mean in a standard game with 8 civs he would at least get 7 tech boosts and 7 civic boosts? That's more than I thought originally.

 

[DogeEnricoDandolo]

To be fair did I completely miss the fact that he gets both a free eureka and inspiration?

So that would mean in a standard game with 8 civs he would at least get 7 tech boosts and 7 civic boosts? That's more than I thought originally.

Or maybe KK will get a less garbage version of Peter's ability, that he can get more than one out of a civ but only boosts that the other leader has already activated or of the techs/civics he has already researched.

 

[Pietato]

The only way these tech/civic boosts will not be useless is if they are controllable, i.e The tech and civic you currently have selected are boosted. Otherwise they are Khmer trash tier.

Edit - Watched the video again. It is random, which means complete rubbish. You are far more likely to get a eureka for something you are would get anyway, or that 1 turn leaf tech you left behind 2 eras ago, as you are to get something useful.

 

[UWHabs]

To be fair did I completely miss the fact that he gets both a free eureka and inspiration?

So that would mean in a standard game with 8 civs he would at least get 7 tech boosts and 7 civic boosts? That's more than I thought originally.

Yeah, getting one of each is something, but that's still a lot less than, say, Alexander, who can practically complete every eureka in conquest.

Although, I wonder if you would also get them from trading posts in city-states too? If that was the case, then suddenly this gets a lot more interesting. That suddenly turns into a solid portion of the trees that you can boost.

Although with alt leaders, half the battle is really talking about what they give up from the other leaders. China under Kublai I think are going to be under-whelming, since Qin's leader ability has both the extra build charge and the wonder boosting. Suddenly having a China where you don't have those build charges makes the Great Wall a worse build, and without those nearly free early wonders, becomes a much more meh civ to deal with.
Genghis' ability is the combat bonus to Cavalry units, and ability to capture. Mongolia still has the immediate trading posts and combat bonus for visibility and trading posts. So those are really the largest bonuses for Mongolia, so if Kublai has a better than expected leader ability on his own, that will certainly be an overall boost to Mongolia under him.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Although with alt leaders, half the battle is really talking about what they give up from the other leaders. China under Kublai I think are going to be under-whelming, since Qin's leader ability has both the extra build charge and the wonder boosting. Suddenly having a China where you don't have those build charges makes the Great Wall a worse build, and without those nearly free early wonders, becomes a much more meh civ to deal with.

To be fair it's realistic. He avoided building and maintaining any sections of the Great Wall.

Maybe it will be something more than just making China a trading empire now.

 

[8housesofelixir]

Although with alt leaders, half the battle is really talking about what they give up from the other leaders. China under Kublai I think are going to be under-whelming, since Qin's leader ability has both the extra build charge and the wonder boosting. Suddenly having a China where you don't have those build charges makes the Great Wall a worse build, and without those nearly free early wonders, becomes a much more meh civ to deal with.

If Kublai's ability is heavily around trade routes that would help a China without Qin, however I didn't see anything extra on the trade routes in the video.

 

[Lord Lakely]

There has to be more to it than we know. If not, Pietato is right and Kublai is utter rubbish compared to Genghis and Qin.

As pointed out in the thread before, Kublai seems to get additional yields... maybe from Trading Posts in other Civs?