Laptop & Video Memory

[TexasBadger]

Ok folks, I realize that I am not a computer expert, so this may be a stupid question, but here goes anyway ...

Granted that my laptop has an integrated video chip with only 16MB of memory. However, 128MB of my system memory is used as video memory (called shared memory???). So how come CivIV does not recognize the 128MB of system memory that is used as video memory as video memory???

I can't attach my DXDIAG file because I already posted it in another thread.

Thanks to anyone who can explain this to a dummy.

Regards,
TexasBadger

GO STARS!

 

[Krupo]

Short answer, I'm guessing Civ only looks at your dedicated video memory. If it's shared, it'll "see" that memory as belonging to your computer itself, and not the video card.

It's not going to count the memory twice.

If it's not counting it even once (say, as part of your system memory), *then* you have a problem.

 

[Akhenaton]

So how come CivIV does not recognize the 128MB of system memory that is used as video memory as video memory???

What do you mean "doesn not recognize"? So what is the actual problem? CivIV doesn't know about how the graphics subsystem allocates its own memory. It may check for PCI IDs and capability flags of the IGP and make determinations based on that, but this would be only for purposes of determining required performance or setting initial defaults (there are AFAIK no reports that it does the former). If it agrees to run, it will most likely use the available memory whether it's shared or dedicated.

In theory it would certainly be possible to make it refuse to allocate stuff to the shared memory, but it would make no sense because it's not consistently released to system use (AFAIK only Intel Extreme chipsets dynamically release while in 3D mode).

 

[Zydor]

Texas

The letters IGP mean you have graphics integrated on the motherboard. Those graphics chips lack two things

1. Dedicated processor
2. Their own dedicated video RAM

When the PC runs, the IGP takes the memory it need from your main system RAM, that RAM is no longer available for the game, its dedicated to the video chips. That reduces the amount of system RAM available for the game - in nearly all cases to below the required specification for the game.

When the graphics are processed in yours, two main things happen,
1. It trys to process the graphics in the small RAM (16Mb) taken from system RAM and given to the video chips. Thats too small, it needs a minimum of 64Mb, preferably 128Mb for the video processing. That slows it down. It also has no dedicated graphics processor, and without it, it cant keep up with game demands.

2. Your below spec main RAM is then under more pressure as some tasks get switched to system RAM to make up for a Video RAM shortfall. Some tasks cannot be switched as they depend on the video card (and its driver) to carry them out. You have no card, so some functions are not completed.

3. Patch V1.52 shifted more work from main system RAM to video RAM due to changes inside the Civ code, which makes it harder for your machine to work, as your non existent video card system cant take on the work. Civ IV is highly dependent on video processing, without the minimum spec - and I would go one level higher as a bare minimum (even that may only work on Tiny & Small worlds)- it will not run the graphics side, hence the symptoms you see.

Recent IGPs - Intel Extreme Series - will work with the 945 and up, the 915 seems to have problems - some do some dont. However they work in a different way, and not relevant to your machine.

Game Hardware specs
http://www.2kgames.com/civ4/support_msr.htm

Regards
Zy

 

[Akhenaton]

When the PC runs, the IGP takes the memory it need from your main system RAM, that RAM is no longer available for the game, its dedicated to the video chips. That reduces the amount of system RAM available for the game - in nearly all cases to below the required specification for the game.

I think this is pretty specious argument. You can't possibly claim that "in nearly all cases" machines with IGP only graphics haven't gotten memory upgrades during their lifetime or not originally delivered with enough memory for serious (business) use. "Probably in most cases" is as far as I'd go. Plenty of 768MB and 1GB machines out there without discrete 3D graphics, which are not necessary for a whole bunch of gaming (including CivI-III)

That slows it down. It also has no dedicated graphics processor, and without it, it cant keep up with game demands.

This isn't fair either, the distinction between "dedicated graphics processor" and an IGP isn't that clear either, because in some solutions the graphics core design is lifted pretty much intact from a card and just put in the same package as rest of the northbridge chip or in most cases on the same die. The specs of the core is what counts, not where it's soldered on.

Some IGPs meet the specs and have enough texture fill rate (processing power) to run CivIV with reduced details and/or lower resolutions.

 

[Zydor]

You will not run graphics intensive 3D games on IGPs its fantasy.

If you are claiming that a graphics chip lifted off a board and placed on the motherboard has the same processing power ..... thats crazy, no chance, it does not have the processing power. Even the newer graphics chips the Intel Express cant do it alone -they rely on the SLI bus to get at the cpu to process it. The Intel Extreme 945, recently released, will work, but even that use a fair amount of system RAM, as well as its on board video.

This is a fullblown 3D implimentation requiring major software processing from inside the game to the card, without a dedicated gpu it will not run to any degree of satisfaction - hence the clearly stated hardware specs on Firaxis site.

You must have a graphics card. If you can get an IGP board to run Civ IV at an acceptable rate- present it to Firaxis - they would love to see a miracle.

What counts is what its processing - and in intensive 3D games you must use a graphics card - period

Disagree - take it up with this guy - the Chief Programmer of Firaxis
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=146309&page=50 post 995

 

[Akhenaton]

You will not run graphics intensive 3D games on IGPs its fantasy.

I guess then a lot of people with IGPs are in your claimed "fantasy" mass hallucination when they say they are running "graphics intensive 3D games" with their machines. And you don't have to believe real life examples, you can always point to benchmarks ran by any number of HW review sites.

You know, the reason why game designers put controls for changing detail levels, is to allow users to make their own minds about quality/performance tradeoffs and utilize their HW with the level of performance it can achieve. And when game designers fail that, donwgrading most if not all of these settings can be forced from the driver. "You will not run" is a pretty elitist attitude. It's not your position to dictate what other people can do with their games and machines. But then again, you seem to be also confusing performance and stability issues like they would necessarily mean the same thing. As long as the game doesn't crash and is able to produce 25 FPS with the absolute minimum detail, then by definition, it's playable.

If you are claiming that a graphics chip lifted off a board and placed on the motherboard has the same processing power ..... thats crazy, no chance, it does not have the processing power.

So... If Intel and AMD take a CPU core and put it together on the same die or package with another identical core, thus producing a multicore CPU, then each core doesn't have the same "processing power" to run fully parallelized threads? You just don't know what you're writing about... Ofcourse they have exactly the same processing power. The differences in real attainable performance come from other bottlenecks, usually various link latencies (of which the frame buffer interface is the biggest factor with IGPs).

Even the newer graphics chips the Intel Express cant do it alone -they rely on the SLI bus to get at the cpu to process it.

Do what alone? What "SLI bus"? SLI has nothing to do with it. Do you know why graphics cards, the ones that have your precious "dedicated memory" need driver software in the OS? Which processor runs those threads? Did you know, that latest graphics drivers are multithreaded, so that they can utilize even multicore CPUs to speed up various setup tasks and even parts of vertex processing? No difference there between cards and IGPs, the CPU does part of the work in both solutions.

Disagree - take it up with this guy - the Chief Programmer of Firaxis
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=146309&page=50#post3522991

That doesn't support your point at all, Thamer writes quite the contrary:

If you don't have HW T&L the fog is probably not going to work right. The exception to this are new machines with Intel Extreme (integrated) graphics which can perform it in software. I think the Extreme 945 series works.

See, according to him lack of T&L is affecting fog (not saying that the lack of it isn't affecting other things as well, but he doesn't say that the WHOLE GAME isn't going to work). Besides, we are now discussing IGPs which DO support T&L and so meet the MSR and according to Thamer, even draw fog in CivIV!

 

[Zydor]

An on board IGP does not have the power to run the game. An IGP will support T&L - it has to for other purposes, but it does not have the power to run graphics intensive 3D games. You need a dedicated gpu. The term used by Firaxis Hardware supported T&L means you must have a Video card - unless its some of the latest Express chips. By all means email them - if they reply to the contrary - I will stand corrected.

SLI Bus has everything to do with it- the express chips cannot operate without moving data down the SLI Bus to the cpu for processing and access to the shared RAM they need from system RAM - look at the Intel White papers

We will agree to disagree

Regards
Zy

 

[Akhenaton]

An on board IGP does not have the power to run the game. An IGP will support T&L - it has to for other purposes, but it does not have the power to run graphics intensive 3D games.

Look, I already pointed out that there are IGPs which are fully on par with low end discrete GPUs and that there are people using them and others reviewing them. Why don't you just accept that fact or at least go and find out for yourself?

Start with something like this (from 2004, btw):

See how nForce 2-G and Radeon 9100 IGP can reach almost 80% of Radeon 9200 level of real life performance. And this was 2004 state of the art in IGP. It has obviously improved since.

According to MSR, the minimum performance is GeForce 2 and if you take that as GeForce 2 MX of 700 Mtexel/s, then at least the following T&L supporting IGPs meet that (considering conservatively that they can attain that 80% efficiency compared to discrete GPU designs, which in turn can typically achieve something like 75% avarage on the peak value, a fact which is already considered in the MSR):

• nForce2-G/GT - MX420/440 (1000-1080 Mtexel/s)
• GeForce 6150 (950 Mtexel/s)
• Radeon 9000 Pro/9100 IGP (1800 Mtexel/s)
• Radeon Xpress 200 - RX482 (1333 Mtexel/s)
• Intel 915G - GMA 900 (1333 Mtexel/s)
• Intel 945G - GMA 950 (1600 Mtexel/s)

You need a dedicated gpu. The term used by Firaxis Hardware supported T&L means you must have a Video card - unless its some of the latest Express chips.

So, "video card" to you means Intel chipset then? IGP doesn't work, but, Intel IGP is different?

"Video card" there just means the graphics subsystem, it's neutral in regards to IGP/slot solution. There would be no need to differentiate them. If some game maker would like to confuse their customers with demanding dedicated memory solutions as MSR, then it would have to be spelled out with something other than typical "video card" reference which in MSRs just refers to graphics capabilities in general.

By all means email them - if they reply to the contrary - I will stand corrected.

I don't have to, the MSR from Take-Two Inc./2K Games is clear enough, only you have a distorted interpretation of it. I called for YOU to provide something to back up your claim and all you did was refer to Thamer's post which pretty much refutes it.

SLI Bus has everything to do with it

There is no "SLI Bus". You got your terminology pretty badly mixed up.

We will agree to disagree

This is not a matter of opinion, you are just factually wrong and not willing to admit it. It wouldn't be such a big deal if you didn't have such a prominent role in this forum always recommending hardware upgrades to people based on your own twisted interpretation on what "meets the spec". It's a huge oversimplification to claim that the game doesn't work at all with low performance hardware, when obviously it does when people are coming in with performance problems and not cries that the game doesn't even load.

It's more honest IMHO to offer ways to reduce details and performance loads (smaller maps etc.) and then explain, that if you want better quality/performance, then you need to upgrade. Unless you are selling PC HW yourself, there is no need to do the promotion work for guys who do.

 

[boneys26]

You will not run graphics intensive 3D games on IGPs its fantasy.

you didn't say... and if you have a ATI card then good luck playing civ4 without any problems

My system

athlon xp3000+ 2.2GHz
1GB pc3200 400MHz ram
radeon 9600pro 256 vram catalist v5:13
sound blaster live 5.1 surround sound
windows xp home edition sp2
pc has latest drivers/updates no spyware, addware, virus, windows problems, hard disk problems, looked using dxdiag (all test completed) norton system works 2005.

The one big problem i have is civ4 compatibility with the ATI graphics card
patch v1.09 sorted out the renderer problems when you first try to play it but patch v1.52 gave me loads of problems, not enough video memory, CTD's, slugish to name a few, sorted them out by by turning graphics settings down, editing game files to turn movies off, auto saves off, etc. now you would think fraxis would have sorted the ATI problems out but no...I have to get a new graphics card monday to sort the problem out. hate to think what the next patch would have done good game when it works tho

 

[TexasBadger]

Texas

The letters IGP mean you have graphics integrated on the motherboard. Those graphics chips lack two things

1. Dedicated processor
2. Their own dedicated video RAM

When the PC runs, the IGP takes the memory it need from your main system RAM, that RAM is no longer available for the game, its dedicated to the video chips. That reduces the amount of system RAM available for the game - in nearly all cases to below the required specification for the game.

Zydor,
I should have included it in my original post, but I have 1Gb of main RAM so NO WAY am I below spec in that regard. My only problems have come with 1.52; 1.09 works wonderfully on my "below spec" machine.

It seems to me that Firaxis is the one with the problem and not all the posters with way-above spec machines that won't run 1.52.

TexasBadger

 

[Zydor]

The firaxis specs for hardware are specific - a video card, not on board integrated graphics.

http://www.2kgames.com/civ4/support_msr.htm

Take it up with them - I didnt write the game, they lay down the hardware specs.

Regards
Zy

 

[nzrock]

Hi

I have a acer aspire 5001 laptop
it has a SiS M76OGX intergrated GPU that shares 128 meg of system ram (1024 Total system ram)
Civ 4 runs fine on it.

 

[Akhenaton]

it has a SiS M76OGX intergrated GPU that shares 128 meg of system ram (1024 Total system ram)
Civ 4 runs fine on it.

See, at 800 Mtexel/s that is just on the borderline of MSR. And apparently CivIV doesn't even complain about it not meeting MSR.

Zydor sounds like a broken record arguing the same tired claim over and over again, reminds me of this:

 

[Zydor]

As I said earlier - we will agree to disagree. There are simple facts regarding graphics intensive 3D games

- Integrated graphics on the motherboard do not have the power required to run graphics intensive 3D games with anything like acceptable performance, with the exception on the emerging Intel Express, 945 or above, and even they will have some limitations

- The game maker insists on Video Cards on order to get decent performance, its clearly stated on the spec, want to dispute that- talk to them.

- Want to believe that integrated graphics on motherboards produce acceptable performance with graphics intensive 3D games, thats fine its a free world. Dont be surprised if someone disagrees with you.

We will agree to disagree - we have opposing views - and I suspect its likely to remain that way.

Regards
Zy

 

[Akhenaton]

As I said earlier - we will agree to disagree. There are simple facts regarding graphics intensive 3D games

They aren't facts. They are misinformation and your own elitist opinions. I don't agree with your opinions, but your facts are just plain wrong.

Integrated graphics on the motherboard do not have the power required to run graphics intensive 3D games with anything like acceptable performance

Try to remember from now on that this is your opinion, not a fact. What is not acceptable to you, is acceptable to many others. Like I have proven with benchmarks and tech specs, there are IGPs with performance similar to what a large portion (maybe even majority) of posters in this forum use (at least used before getting involved with CivIV). I'm talking about low-end cards with less than 2000 Mtexel/s fillrate.

- The game maker insists on Video Cards on order to get decent performance, its clearly stated on the spec, want to dispute that- talk to them.

The MSR also lists "DirectX 9.0c-compatible sound card". Does this mean that integrated sound (which majority use, while only a minority has discrete audio cards) doesn't meet the MSR, to be consistent with your crazy claim? Ofcourse not. You are just wrong and it doesn't change no matter how many times you put forth the same claim.

 

[JerichoMyst]

now this dude ZYDOR is strange one
my current system:
amd sepron mobile, 512MB, SIS760 IGP etc.

once I posted that in-game videos are choppy, and he says:
the game will not run on your system
me like: what???? its running and its OK, its just in-game videos.
hes again: the game will not run its below MSR!!!

I setup lower graphics and etc. and its fine

IGP means integrated graphics processor... read slowly, once more... did you get it? no?

OK here we go: the graphics processor exists its just integrated not exterminated. also there are IGP with their own video memory (you can get 256MB with fx6800 ultra and newer). what you've been doing lately? living in the woods?

no matter how often you will quote firaxis and 2kgames, the Civ4 is running on IGPs