I was playing a game as Hes, standard size. I had 2 vassals as my neighbors and Biz just past my largest vassal. I took over Frankfurt and founds stacks of 10 Knights and 10 War Elephants combined with longbowmen in his 3 largest cities. I had rifleman so, knowing that I didn't have the troop power to move forward, I hunkered down in Frankfurt and started building rifles like crazy while teching to Industrialism. I built 20 rifles for the next battle. however, the game decided we needed 20 turns of peace giving him enough time to tech grenadiers, which kill rifles. So, I had a stack of 20 rifles, 4 cannons and 5 cavalry with 3 generals mixed in and all having 3 levels of promotions going into battle, and I got slaughtered. he attacked me first while I was on a jungle tile after I declared war. he left me with 1 rifle and had 15 varied units with some damage left. How should I have approached this differently and how do you deal with massive stacks like this?
Large Stacks
- Thread starter mimunday
- Start date
Draft !
warpus
Sommerswerd asked me to change this
I had one with 70 units or so in my last game.
MrCynical
Deity
I've seen naval stacks of 200+ units (not counting transported land units). On land I don't think I've seen more than 150 on a single tile. Might eb because I rarely play Pangaea or aggresive AI. For land based stuff the best you can do is collateral damage and flank attacks with mounted units to take out siege engines. Then hole up in a couple of hill cities and let the stack take huge losses attacking it (hence need to remove siege engines). Later in the game Aircraft can help whittle their health down without losses, and finally you get nukes which can damage the entire stack at once. they're particular good against stacks of ships - no fallout to clean up.
As to the largest stack I've built? Maybe 40 odd units. I tend to spread them out a bit which limits stack size. One stack is slow and not very flexible in enemy territory.
As to the largest stack I've built? Maybe 40 odd units. I tend to spread them out a bit which limits stack size. One stack is slow and not very flexible in enemy territory.
warpus
Sommerswerd asked me to change this
There should really be a limit on the number of units you can have in one tile. I remember reading, when Civ4 came out, that it made strategic sense to NOT have huge stacks.. but I don't really know what they were talking about - stacks of death work.
jeffreyac
Mostly Harmless
I think the idea was seige weapons and collateral damage would limit stack numbers in theory (that is, the stacks would be dangerous and vulnerable...) In practice, while this is true, the 'stack of doom' is still a viable strategy.
I don't care either way - if they come in small stacks, call up the mobile defense forces and go snipe at the flanks where I can. If they come in bog stacks, call Strategic Air Command and put the bombers on alert...
(yes, I know, only works after you have flight - but what fun it is when you do!)
I don't care either way - if they come in small stacks, call up the mobile defense forces and go snipe at the flanks where I can. If they come in bog stacks, call Strategic Air Command and put the bombers on alert...
(yes, I know, only works after you have flight - but what fun it is when you do!)
coffeeholic
Chieftain
I've had games where I have faced huge stacks 100+ from the AI. I think this is fine though since it adds a level of attrition to the game. Plus it doesn't happen too often IMO. Large stacks or 'armies' as they could be called are a realistic aspect of warfare in this game and in the real world.. Napoleans invasion of russia with 500k+ troops in the nineteenth century could be considered a real world example of a stack of doom.
on the other hand I think the game would be interesting if there was a limit to the number of units that can occupy the same tile. This would certainly add a level of tactics that the stack of doom approach does not.
as for a suggestion to counter this I sometimes have a separate stack of new 'green' units on the front lines to take the wrath of their stack, I leave some of my more experienced troops inside home territory to attack with after the initial wave hits.
AJK
on the other hand I think the game would be interesting if there was a limit to the number of units that can occupy the same tile. This would certainly add a level of tactics that the stack of doom approach does not.
as for a suggestion to counter this I sometimes have a separate stack of new 'green' units on the front lines to take the wrath of their stack, I leave some of my more experienced troops inside home territory to attack with after the initial wave hits.
AJK
warpus
Sommerswerd asked me to change this
IMO that would have been best modelled with 5-10 stacks of doom, instead of one giant SOD.
Generally, you should let the enemy stack come out where you can see it, and then attack it with all you've got - IF you have enough troops nearby to kill most of the units and cripple the rest.
If you don't have enough nearby, then you should retreat, and build up troops. Even if you have to give up a city doing this, I think you should do so because the AI will split its stack upon capturing the city and move half of it outside further into your territory, where it is more vulnerable (because it is smaller) to your attacks.
To sum up, in battles between two large stacks, you really want to be the attacker.
Before BTS, your stack should have been mostly made up of seige (with some other units for defence) because of the collateral damage they could do. Now (in BTS), you still need lots of seige, but since they cannot kill on attack, you also need lots of contempary footsoldiers (in your case riflemen and cavalry).
In BTS it is even more critical that you do not let your stack get attacked by the enemy stack because of the flanking damage that mounted units do to seige weapons, and, since cavalry have a high retreat chance, there is not much you can do to avoid it except by being the attacker.
Totibbs
Warlord
omg! >50 units?
I play just as normal as possible (normal land size, normal game speed etc) @ noble. My largest is about 2 lines of units in the selection bar. That is about 18 untis on one square.
How do you guys manage >50 units? Do you need 15 min. for one turn?
I play just as normal as possible (normal land size, normal game speed etc) @ noble. My largest is about 2 lines of units in the selection bar. That is about 18 untis on one square.
How do you guys manage >50 units? Do you need 15 min. for one turn?
Commodore Nate
Warlord
- Joined
- Feb 6, 2008
- Messages
- 204
When I get up to 4 lines of units (I've had more units on the board but never in one stack like you guys say), I just move en masse. But yeah, those turns start to take longer as the stacks grow.
Ok, everyone, I obviously need help
I've been proud of myself for building up like stacks of 20 or 30 (ok, so I will sometimes have 2 or 3 of these stacks, but still). I'm playing on noble level. When you guys see AI's with stacks of 100+, what level are you playing on? I don't think I've seen higher than 50 in my opponents stacks.
Second, *how* in the world do you build up stacks that big? Do you guys upgrade existing units? I mean, if you build 100 units, don't they go out of date? How many turns does it take to build that many units? If you had 1 city building at 1 unit/turn, it would take 100 turns to krank out an army that big (100 turns later, your older units would be becoming obsolete, are they just fodder? garrison units?). How many cities (on average) do you use to build units? How many per-turn?
I heard that you should have cities that produce 1 unit per turn. I find that I can't quite get my production cities up high enough to build a modern unit in 1 turn. A modern armor on a recent "epic" game was 240. I had one city with Iron works and another with Heroic Epoch that were turning out tanks every 2 turns, but that was the best I could get. Should I have replaced some of my old farms with workshops? Am I not specializing enough? How many hammers (adjusted) are your military cities producing each turn by the end of the game? How do you do it? Do you settle great engineers?
-- SJN
I've been proud of myself for building up like stacks of 20 or 30 (ok, so I will sometimes have 2 or 3 of these stacks, but still). I'm playing on noble level. When you guys see AI's with stacks of 100+, what level are you playing on? I don't think I've seen higher than 50 in my opponents stacks.
Second, *how* in the world do you build up stacks that big? Do you guys upgrade existing units? I mean, if you build 100 units, don't they go out of date? How many turns does it take to build that many units? If you had 1 city building at 1 unit/turn, it would take 100 turns to krank out an army that big (100 turns later, your older units would be becoming obsolete, are they just fodder? garrison units?). How many cities (on average) do you use to build units? How many per-turn?
I heard that you should have cities that produce 1 unit per turn. I find that I can't quite get my production cities up high enough to build a modern unit in 1 turn. A modern armor on a recent "epic" game was 240. I had one city with Iron works and another with Heroic Epoch that were turning out tanks every 2 turns, but that was the best I could get. Should I have replaced some of my old farms with workshops? Am I not specializing enough? How many hammers (adjusted) are your military cities producing each turn by the end of the game? How do you do it? Do you settle great engineers?
-- SJN
a modern army every 2 turns is pretty good.
But you don't need to settle engineers to have them in 1 turn. All the prod-buildings, plus military acadamie, heroic epic and or ironworks should do it, if you have enough hammers ofcourse.
In most of my games [emperor, agressive ai] I don't see such large stacks, large ones, but not like 50 in one tile. I think they emerge when the standoff between nations takes too long. It's like a cold war where rivalling empires just keep on building troops before attacking. They check if they're strong enough, no -> build more troops, etc.
Timing is crucial in warfare, know when to attack. If you can surprise him you're halfway there.
I always try to valuate quality over quantity, I usually drop all my generals in 1 [or maybe 2] city to produce uberunits [1 every turn]. I promote as much as obsolete units as possible and even disband some unexperienced ones.
Also, they ai knows probably where your units can strike in 1 turn, so they place their units accordingly. If thats only one spot, they will all be there. Try and place diversion-attacks. I don't know if it really makes any difference, but if i'm preparing for war I rally my troops on a spot that doesn't alert my victim-to-be. Maybe next to some other guys border, on then place em the turn before i declare war exactly closeby enough to get to all the points i wanna get.
He surely can't have large stacks all over his empire so attack somewhere else. Also, if his army is indeed that enormous, try taking out his money-making cities and he should be bankrupt in no time.
But you don't need to settle engineers to have them in 1 turn. All the prod-buildings, plus military acadamie, heroic epic and or ironworks should do it, if you have enough hammers ofcourse.
In most of my games [emperor, agressive ai] I don't see such large stacks, large ones, but not like 50 in one tile. I think they emerge when the standoff between nations takes too long. It's like a cold war where rivalling empires just keep on building troops before attacking. They check if they're strong enough, no -> build more troops, etc.
Timing is crucial in warfare, know when to attack. If you can surprise him you're halfway there.
I always try to valuate quality over quantity, I usually drop all my generals in 1 [or maybe 2] city to produce uberunits [1 every turn]. I promote as much as obsolete units as possible and even disband some unexperienced ones.
Also, they ai knows probably where your units can strike in 1 turn, so they place their units accordingly. If thats only one spot, they will all be there. Try and place diversion-attacks. I don't know if it really makes any difference, but if i'm preparing for war I rally my troops on a spot that doesn't alert my victim-to-be. Maybe next to some other guys border, on then place em the turn before i declare war exactly closeby enough to get to all the points i wanna get.
He surely can't have large stacks all over his empire so attack somewhere else. Also, if his army is indeed that enormous, try taking out his money-making cities and he should be bankrupt in no time.
Mortac
Warlord
What happens when you go bankrupt anyway? I know in Civ3 it would sell city improvements automatically, but I never ran out of cash in Civ4. Is it the same thing?
Il Corvo Bianco
Warlord
- Joined
- May 5, 2006
- Messages
- 105
Middle Age stack: 35 Macemen, 20 CBmen, 15 knights and like 40 between trebs and cats. Biggest stack ever made, for me. Then a tank army of 40 tanks, 10 marines and 10 paratroopers. No need for suicide siege: tank's collateral damage is more than enough 
Airefuego
King
i play standard monarch maps and my big stacks are only 15-20 units... no bigger is needed because the AI's stacks are generally about the same size, and not as well managed.
Could it be that an "escalation effect" occurs? - the AI observes the power graph and tries to match it, so if you have a massive stack you will probably face one, whereas if you have smaller stacks the AI will too?
Or am I just playing too easy on too small maps to need or see truly doom-like stacks?
Could it be that an "escalation effect" occurs? - the AI observes the power graph and tries to match it, so if you have a massive stack you will probably face one, whereas if you have smaller stacks the AI will too?
Or am I just playing too easy on too small maps to need or see truly doom-like stacks?
Not spam rifles. They are useful, but if your enemy is approaching Grenadiers, you need something other than rifles. Grenadiers of your own, or preferably machineguns, or Infantry. Unfortunately riflemen would have been the best counter to their mounted units.
The other option would be to spam siege units to weaken the grenadiers to aid your rifles. Never forget siege units, they are hugely important on defense as well as offense.
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