[C3C] Late game tech rate confusion

[Fergei]

I am repeatedly losing games when 1v1 against the AI in a tech race and space race. I know how I could win (e.g. nuke their capital and invade to destroy their spaceship, embroil them in endless war against the whole world, go mad with espionage to disrupt production etc), but I am puzzled by how I cannot apparently win playing pacifist when I have a superior empire.

Scenario:

- You are in a large world, approaching the space race with just you and 1x AI in the tech lead (various other AI have larger or smaller scores, but are not competing for a space race victory as they are too far behind on tech. So the AI to AI tech trading difficulty setting is a non-factor)
- Your score is around 15-25% higher than the AI rival you are racing against and all your cities are completely optimised in terms of buildings
- the AI enter the modern era about 6 turns ahead of you (i.e. they are only 1x tech ahead of you and some of the time they do not have a tech lead on you, albeit they are closer to learning the next tech).
- tech rate in modern era for your Civ is around 8 turns per tech.
- you purchase the following in every city immediately - research lab, factory, hydro plant, manufacturing plant (plus really anything else that boosts commerce or production).
- you are playing essentially on Emperor difficulty, but with the AI cost factor from Deity
- the space race victory requires 5x of each module to be built, including a module only available when all techs have been learnt
- you are in Democracy teching at 100% throughout the entire industrial and modern era.
- in your cities, any additional citizens not working a tile or needed as an entertainer are scientists
- in your AI rival's cities, any additional citizens not working a tile or needed as an entertainer appear to be tax collectors
- you have 99% literacy and a clear lead over your AI rival in land mass, population and income
- research labs are brought forward to Scientific Method


Understanding & Expectations:

- the AI is ahead on tech, so cannot tech trade with anyone and gets no tech advantage from other AIs having a tech. The AI to AI tech trading difficulty setting is also therefore irrelevant.
- the human (me) gets a very minor teching boost when my AI rival learns a tech (because I now know 1x AI that has the tech I am learning)
- if I am buying the above buildings I am effectively maxing my tech and production ability.
- with my larger score, more cities & population and fully optimised use of buildings & citizens (scientists) I should slowly catch and overhaul the AI on tech.
- the AI would then build modules more quickly than the human due to the cost factor, so it becomes a race for the human to get a minor tech lead to gain access to the last module of the spaceship before the AI can build it (which should lead to a nailbiting finish, that I am aiming for).

Reality

- regardless of whether the AI is peaceful or at war (with up to 5 or 6 Civs), it just steamrolls through the modern era techs and space race. This can include their inferior empire actually speeding away from me in the space race.
- the AI builds the modules more quickly than the human (to be expected with the cost factor)
- the human (me) cannot catch the AI up on tech despite optimising teching to the fullest in a way that the AI cannot (i.e. it doesn't make scientists as much/at all and it doesn't buy research labs).
- this pattern is consistently repeated regardless of whether the AI I am 1v1 against is scientific or not.
- if the AI gets the last tech before me, they are almost assured space race victory because of their cost factor meaning they can build a spaceship quicker.

Questions

1) What factors am I missing in the editor or in AI behaviour that permit the inferior AI I am competing against to maintain a tech lead against me?
2) Have you won a pacifist / non-interventionist space race on Deity level against an AI with a broadly comparable empire size and a small AI tech lead entering the modern era?

I have never had these issues with the Emperor level cost factor, just with the Deity level cost factor - so I am assuming it is something to do with the cost factor, even though that makes no sense (sure, it means they can build the Apollo Programme a couple of turns earlier than on vanilla Emperor, but that should not have a huge impact). I have had about 6 games in a row 1v1 with the AI like this and I cannot find a pacifist path to victory (or to gain the tech lead) when I believe my empire is clearly sufficiently superior that a pacifist victory should be

Example save posted incase anyone is sufficiently motivated to identify how I am messing up. I am Vikings and my eternal nemesis is the ever overacheiving Persia as the AI in question this time (smaller empire, including a size 6 city). The other times it has not been Persia and I've lost even in this position as Korea (Scientific/Commercial).

In this game I am also at risk to losing to Maya on domination (20% land and population) and Persia has a very outside chance of one city culture (currently at 13k). However, these are not really relevant to the points I am razing (edit: too much Civ ruining my English!), merely context. I have turned out to be correct in identifying a Persian space race as the biggest threat to my victory. As I say, I am not looking for advice on how to win this game by other means. I am wanting to understand why maximising tech does not appear sufficient to catch up to the AI when I use the Deity level cost factor.

I am so close to having the difficulty settings I desire but this has become a real obstacle. Thanks in advance to anyone who can offer an explanation of what is going on behind the scenes here to help the AI maintain a tech lead.

 

[kaskavel]

You are researching at 4 turns per tech at this point. If the AI also does that, you cannot beat it in a tech race.
And it has quite a significant area advantage. You do not even have more population, which is a rare sight. AI also has a corruption advantage, you play with 50% of OCN (not sure if that matters)

 

[Fergei]

No, I cannot tech at 4 per turn. We are both at about 7 or 8 turns per tech. Persia did have a succesful military campaign but has 10 cities compared to my 17 (I appreciate a few of mine have sub-optimum placements). I have set the OCN on this map size to 18. So I don't think that is a variable here? The tech rate is set to 240. But irrespective of the tech ratd setting I cannot understand how my larger empire cannot close the gap. He can't have Wonders that make a 10 city empire tech faster than a 17 city one?

I do have more population. It is the Mayans and Indians who have the huge but relatively backward empires here. I am 2nd on population behind Maya.

 

[kaskavel]

Oh, sorry, I thought you was losing to the "leader".
Have you counted the tiles? You do not have so many more as your city advantage implies...

 

[kaskavel]

You have 1479 beakers per turn (plus 65*3=195 from scientists for a total of 1674) against 1185. Both at 100% science. Your city advantage is not so big as it seems due to AI's OCP, perhaps more rivers and the SETI. Still, 1674 vs 1185 is quite a lot...

 

[tjs282]

When it comes to beaker-costs, the AI always pays the 'Regent' price for an unknown tech (unless you've also changed that setting?). The AI Cost-Factor is inversed, and multiplied by that Regent cost, to get your beaker-costs. So e.g. if you have a AICF of 0.8 (i.e. Emperor in the Firaxis game), your 'unknown tech' beaker-costs will be 1/0.8 = 1.25x times the AI's. Similarly, with an AICF of 0.6, your costs will be 1.66x higher.

So at AICF=0.6, your Empire would need to be fully optimised and at least 1.7x bigger than your tech-race competitor's, just to obtain an equal tech-discovery rate. To research faster than them, you would need to substantially increase that size-ratio (and you would also likely have needed to start doing that much earlier in the game, just to give you the time/turns to obtain the shields + gold needed to optimise those extra towns).

 

[Fergei]

Oh dear. Why did I assume AI cost factor related to shield production and not tech? It never even entered my mind. I have spent 4 months having bizarre feeling defeats and banging my head off the wall optimising my teching and falling short. So I need to be 1.7x bigger with the Deity difficulty AICF and Kaskavel has identified in this game I am only 1.44x bigger, hence why I am not catching up.

At least I am not mad. With all other variables being equal (and no tech trading) the same size AI empire will tech at a faster rate as difficulty level increases. I suspect this also explains why in my ancient era the AI can burst ahead on tech even when techs are not tradeable for the first half of that era (which also flummoxed me).

Apologies, but this raises further questions:

i) What setting in the editor makes the AI pay Regent price for an AI tech?

ii) Does the tech rate setting on World Size options in the editor apply to both AI and human equally (as I assumd it does)?

 

[justanick]

So I need to be 1.7x bigger with the Deity difficulty AICF

That is after corruption has applied. Consider corruption and the gap widens further.

i) What setting in the editor makes the AI pay Regent price for an AI tech?

To my understanding there is no option to change that.

Under "General Settings" you can choose the Default Difficulty Level for AI. Maybe that does what you have in mind. Maybe it has unwanted sideffects.

ii) Does the tech rate setting on World Size options in the editor apply to both AI and human equally (as I assumd it does)?

Yes.

M

Thread 'Research cost formula v1.29f'

Aug 11, 2002

This is the formula for research cost for v1.29f. I have attached an image of the formula as it is easier to visualize that way than in plain text. Also it is now simplified even more for your pleasure .

Research Cost =

- Research done so far

I'll also write it out for those who cannot view images.

Research Cost = [MM * [10*COST * (1 - N/[CL*1.75])]/(CF * 10)] - Research done so far

Research Cost and research done so far are in gold.

Square brackets indicate truncation /rounddown

MM = map modifier(tech rate on world...

• mydisease
• Replies: 33
• Forum: Civ3 - Strategy & Tips

 

[tenny]

Under "General Settings" you can choose the Default Difficulty Level for AI. Maybe that does what you have in mind. Maybe it has unwanted sideffects.

Unfortunately, that setting does not affect the required beakers for the AI.

 

[tjs282]

Unfortunately, that setting does not affect the required beakers for the AI.

OK, that's news to me.

And since I'm assuming you wouldn't say this unless you were sure about that... do you have any information as to what that "Default Difficulty" setting does affect?

Because the only other difficulty-related thing I can think of that isn't directly related to the AICF is the (AI) combat-bonus vs. Barbs...?

 

[tenny]

OK, that's news to me.

And since I'm assuming you wouldn't say this unless you were sure about that... do you have any information as to what that "Default Difficulty" setting does affect?

Because the only other difficulty-related thing I can think of that isn't directly related to the AICF is the (AI) combat-bonus vs. Barbs...?

The "Default Difficulty" affects number of citizens born content, number of citizens quelled by the military, optimal city number, attack bonus against barbarians and what the AI gets from goody huts.

It does not affect AI bonuses, like additional starting units, unit support bonuses, government transition time, cost factor and AI trade.

 

[Fergei]

I am grateful of the discussion here. I think ensuring I have an empire 1.8x bigger than an AI rival in a pacifist 1vs1 space race is something I can live with, now that I know that and can incorporate that into my planning.

It remains a huge issue if the AI rival has exclusive control of a land mass (not so vulnerable to attack) but then that will now simply be an early sign to attempt a different victory condition.

My enjoyment of the game is closely linked to the combination of Deity level CF but no AI bonus starting units, so I think I will leave that and instead nerf the AI tech trading score instead. This might actually give me a chance of building any Wonder between the Great Library and Hoover Dam which seems near impossible with the Deity CF. If every AI learns every tech more quickly due to the CF I do not think this needs to be multiplied by enhanced tech trading. The worry is nerfing AI tech trading will give me earlier access to very generous GPT trade deals.

Hmm, I think I will try one more game with the status quo. In some ways it is good to know you cannot just relax and rely on a space race victory if all else fails. For the game to force me to build a military, navy and airforce and use it offensively, even if going for space race.