Late Qing Empire: Manchu or Chinese?

[Knight-Dragon]

Yup. Us deep south Chinese were once called Nan-Man, "southern barbarians". But look at us now. Chinese to the core. Would anyone think there once was an independent Yue kingdom here?

The 'Yue kingdom' still existed. Vietnam was known as Yue Nan in Chinese - southern Yue.

An independent Yue kingdom still ruled what's Fujian province today in Early Han times.

 

[Dann]

The 'Yue kingdom' still existed. Vietnam was known as Yue Nan in Chinese - southern Yue.

An independent Yue kingdom still ruled what's Fujian province today in Early Han times.

That was the one I was referring to. Not Vietnam.

Say, think we can make that an excuse and "incorporate" Vietnam as well?

Just kidding.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

Annam (N Vietnam) was ruled by the Chinese for 1000 years, and again for a few decades during the Ming...

Why not?

Joking aside, probably too late to Sinicize now...

 

[Verbose]

I would have thought the Qing were Manchu. (I voted on it.) At least that was the point made when I took East Asian history at univ. years ago.

The way it was explained to me, the Manchus actually looked at the fate of earlier dynasties that had been sinizised and set about doing it differently, mainly by making sure that things got properly written down in their own language as well. (And then they would get sinizied to a great extent anyway of course, the point being rather that they fought it much more consciously than earlier dynasties with a similar background.)

Making sure that the Chinese looked different from Manchus would have helped. That was were the hairstyle with the long tail all Chinese had to wear came from. And why cutting it off would count as a sign of rebellion among the Chinese. The Manchus could wear their hair in whatever style they liked. (And I'm pretty sure that the Manchu women never had their feet bound.)

On top of that the Manchus were a military caste. No chinese in the armed forces, no armed chinese at all, since that might be dangerous. That is, until the Manchu army got clobbered by the Tai Ping. In order to save the dynasty the warfare had to be farmed out some competent Chinese. It did buy the Qing time, but they were still considered too Manchu and too little Chinese to get the loyalty of the bulk of the Chinese.

That was sort of what I have been told. It makes sense that way, but I couldn't tell if there is something wrong with the picture.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

I would have thought the Qing were Manchu. (I voted on it.) At least that was the point made when I took East Asian history at univ. years ago.

On the surface, the empire was Manchu-ruled. But in practise? And I'm only referring to the late Qing period - there's no question at all about the earlier half.

On top of that the Manchus were a military caste. No chinese in the armed forces, no armed chinese at all, since that might be dangerous. That is, until the Manchu army got clobbered by the Tai Ping. In order to save the dynasty the warfare had to be farmed out some competent Chinese.

From before the Manchus even entered China proper, they already depended on Chinese manpower to fill up some of the ranks. 8 of the 24 Banners were Chinese (Manchurian Chinese). And it was the ex-Ming forces under Wu Sangui and other ex-Ming generals who led the way to conquer the south. Though Banner garrisons were established at important points thru out the empire, it was the Chinese who formed the bulk of the military manpower, in the liuqing (Green Standard) formations.

 

[Verbose]

Well, wouldn't you know. We live and learn.
But still, this would mean a clear Manchu controll over the military, right? And a significant shift in policy in the 1850's? And there still remains the questions both of how the Manchus regarded themseles viz. the Chinese, and how they were seen by the Chinese. Is the impression I have of clear distinctions having been consciously made between conquerors and conquered also problematic?

 

[Knight-Dragon]

I think the Manchus had lost control over the country, after the Taiping wars. Rather, as in losing control to the various regional militaries which were set up and under the command of Chinese officials, to combat the Taipings.

As for the 2nd part, the Chinese certainly saw the Manchus as foreign, even in 1911. But for the Manchus, no idea. In actual practise, the two were the same, speaking the same language, looking the same, dressed the same, struggling with the same issues about China etc...

 

[Verbose]

First half: Yes, that was how I have understood it.
Second half: Well, if the Manchus hadn't been trying to maintain a sense of their otherness perhaps there wouldn't have been a problem? No one ever questioned the "chineseness" of the Tang as far as I know, and they had a few tricks that were definately nomad and turkish, at least at the outset.

 

[akinkhoo]

Qing Empire was largely based on chinese administration because the manchu knew they couldn't be able to gain royality from the population if they don't. however, they maintained their own custom and took step to maintain "pure" such as preventing intermarriage... however, it was only a matter of time...

Chinese culture maintain a stronghold in the Qing Empire where even the emperor took on chinese practices and rituals, while the chinese population also play along with the dominance of the manchu leaders. they all kept "pigtail" hair style as required by the imperial laws.

it is a mixture of both, clearly the manchurian knew they need to "live like" Chinese to control china, but they always maintain that they are not Han Chinese with certain pride and social isolation. many great emperor of Qing try to revert this, with a few attempt to help manchurian intergrate better with the han chinese.

 

[Headline]

I wonder what language Empress Cixi spoke in her loyal court. I guess that will determine if Qing Empire is Manchurian or "Chinese" (Han).

Also, the concept of "Middle Kingdom" is really vague. It was not universally recognized until the founding of the republic. If you look at the Civ3 technology tree, China was in the stage of early industrial era around the late Qing's rule. Nationalism just started around Boxer's rebellion. Before the appearance of foreigners, there was only the distinction between various ethic groups in China. I guess there will be no comparison between Chinese or Manchu. A comparison between Han versus Manchu is more reasonable since both Han and Manchu are recognized as the people of Middle Kingdom.

One has to wonder what language does the ancient Chinese from Han or Tang or Song dynasty use. I notice that Cantonese and Mandarin are based on the same characters. Some time in the history, the two languages probably diverge due to communication difficulty. I guess the Chinese characters best represent "Han" culture. Manchurian on the other hand used Turkish like character.

The culture of "Middle Kingdom" also changes. With the integration of steppe culture, the culture of "Han" was different from before. In the Tang dynasty, the culture of Han was more like Japanese (Japanese absorb it) than the Han culture of Qing dynasty. Chinese culture constantly changes unlike some western perceptions.

 

[Headline]

This is a must read website. The guy has a great insight on steppe culture.

http://www.johnjemerson.com/

 

[Headline]

Annam (N Vietnam) was ruled by the Chinese for 1000 years, and again for a few decades during the Ming...

Why not?

Joking aside, probably too late to Sinicize now...

It's funny that "Yue" keeps moving south

Yue was around the sea coast south of Yangtze river during the Spring and Fall era. Then with every dynasty change, the ruler would name some place south Yue when the people around there weren't from the original Yue. Vietnam was given the name "Nam Yue" during Chinese rule.

It is also funny that Chinese were pretty ignorant about barbarians. They pretty much named every other race that invaded China "Hun" just for the sake.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

It's funny that "Yue" keeps moving south

Yue was around the sea coast south of Yangtze river during the Spring and Fall era. Then with every dynasty change, the ruler would name some place south Yue when the people around there weren't from the original Yue. Vietnam was given the name "Nam Yue" during Chinese rule.

Actually, in pre-imperial times, the entire coastal stretch fr the Yangzi to N Vietnam was inhabited by a people who seemed culturally uniformed. After the Chinese conquered the Guangdong area and the Yangzi delta, it seemed that this people broke up and went their separate ways - mostly becoming Chinese, some headed for SE Asia, some becoming the Vietnamese etc.

It is also funny that Chinese were pretty ignorant about barbarians. They pretty much named every other race that invaded China "Hun" just for the sake.

That's very untrue. The Chinese paid especial attention to the steppe tribes. They even had a special agency to keep track of who's what where in the frontiers, since these tribes were always China's greatest threat.

And 'Hun' wasn't even a Chinese term.

Note that when the Russians arrived landwardside, the Chinese (Manchus really) quickly recognized them as a distinct people (and potential enemy), fought a brief war to drive the Russians back out of the Amur, established a treaty with the Russians (in 5 languages - Chinese, Manchu, Mongol, Russian and Latin), established a school to learn Russian in Beijing and allowed the Russians to set up a 'Russian Hostel' in same city. They took the north very seriously, and in those decades were in a struggle with Russia over the Mongols' allegiance.

Note the wide difference in treatment of when the British attempted an audience, much later...

 

[alex994]

Ahh, XIII, helping make sure ignorant people become enlightened by Chinese history I salute u! Anyways, the Late Manchu Dynasty was more Chinese then Manchu.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

I wonder what language Empress Cixi spoke in her loyal court. I guess that will determine if Qing Empire is Manchurian or "Chinese" (Han).

Chinese. Very few Manchus, not even the scholars, could even speak the language late in the dynastic period.

Also, the concept of "Middle Kingdom" is really vague. It was not universally recognized until the founding of the republic. If you look at the Civ3 technology tree, China was in the stage of early industrial era around the late Qing's rule. Nationalism just started around Boxer's rebellion. Before the appearance of foreigners, there was only the distinction between various ethic groups in China. I guess there will be no comparison between Chinese or Manchu. A comparison between Han versus Manchu is more reasonable since both Han and Manchu are recognized as the people of Middle Kingdom.

The only conceptual framework for the empire was a simplistic 'us' and 'them' - betw the civilised and the barbarians. Until the Europeans arrived...

One has to wonder what language does the ancient Chinese from Han or Tang or Song dynasty use. I notice that Cantonese and Mandarin are based on the same characters. Some time in the history, the two languages probably diverge due to communication difficulty. I guess the Chinese characters best represent "Han" culture. Manchurian on the other hand used Turkish like character.

The language is Chinese; always had been. Only the pronounciation changed. This was probably due to the Chinese written script, which remained unchanged for millenia. One could read the Confucian Analects, exactly as it was written down 2500 years ago, and understanding it as well.

I've heard that Cantonese is much closer to the original Chinese prounciation. Mandarin was impacted by the Manchus' use of softer tones.

And yes, the Manchu script was based on the Uighur script. A note here - the Jurchens, ancestors of the Manchus, actually used a script based on Chinese. The Manchus had forgotten it, by the time they rose to power again.

The culture of "Middle Kingdom" also changes. With the integration of steppe culture, the culture of "Han" was different from before. In the Tang dynasty, the culture of Han was more like Japanese (Japanese absorb it) than the Han culture of Qing dynasty. Chinese culture constantly changes unlike some western perceptions.

Yup. Even the Chinese mostly failed to recognize this... Every dynasty had its own peculiarities...

 

[Knight-Dragon]

Ahh, XIII, helping make sure ignorant people become enlightened by Chinese history I salute u! Anyways, the Late Manchu Dynasty was more Chinese then Manchu.

I wouldn't say ignorant - he knows his stuff. My guess is he's referring to some other periods. The Chinese were certainly oblivious to the world at times, and very attentive at other times (esp when weak ).

China had such a long history, pretty much any description can be made to fit in.