Latin....... the start of modern languages

[scherbchen]

the mixed vocabulary of English is, at times, tiring to people learning the language. you have tons of near-synonyms (short/brief, animal/beast, liberty/freedom, great/large/big) and a disassociated lexicon. there is no logical way to go from *holy* to *saint* where German simply adds a suffix (*heilig* - *Heiliger*) or from *mouth* to *oral* (*Mund* - *mündlich*, *oral* is used but usually only when talking about sex or medicine).

once you have mastered that stage, however, English is fun again

 

[aronnax]

I see, so what is the reason that those words were incorporated into what was to become Old English but not into German? Any ideas?

PS: the best move English ever made was to cut the Germanic declension system. but honestly... english has to have the worst pronounciation-to-written-language ratio of any living language.

Actually I think the best move English did was cutting out the gender specific labeling like how some language have some items that are male, some female and some neutral. Its confusing

 

[Mirc]

Actually I think the best move English did was cutting out the gender specific labeling like how some language have some items that are male, some female and some neutral. Its confusing

It's confusing because you don't speak a language that groups all objects into male, female or neuter. For me it's confusing to see "a boy" and "a girl", or "the boy" and "the girl, so the same article for both. Makes it seem like we are all asexuals.

 

[scherbchen]

right... coming from a language where we are used to 3 genders I often take that convenience in English for granted. At least Spanish gives you ground rules that cover maybe 80% of the nouns, then you get half a dozen exceptions to that rule and you're good. In German it is just so utterly random it's silly, really (it even varies from region to region at times. in the north you'd say "die Cola" while in Bavaria "der Cola" is -apparently, still sounds nuts to me- perfectly legitimate). I have a good friend from the US who has lived in Germany for around 8 years and his German is next to perfect, except that he occasionally confuses a noun's gender and that will inevitably bring someone to ask "where are you from?" within seconds.

good point.

edit: I mentioned Mark Twain's rambling about German before... here's a link, an entertaining read even though it contains the odd error http://www.crossmyt.com/hc/linghebr/awfgrmlg.html

 

[Plotinus]

Well, English does have three genders. It's just that we sensibly confine the masculine and feminine genders to things that really are masculine and feminine, leaving neuter for everything else. Odd that this doesn't seem to have occurred to most other languages...

 

[Mirc]

the mixed vocabulary of English is, at times, tiring to people learning the language. you have tons of near-synonyms (short/brief, animal/beast, liberty/freedom, great/large/big) and a disassociated lexicon. there is no logical way to go from *holy* to *saint* where German simply adds a suffix (*heilig* - *Heiliger*) or from *mouth* to *oral* (*Mund* - *mündlich*, *oral* is used but usually only when talking about sex or medicine).

We've got the same near-synonym situation in Romanian actually, with Latin/Slavic words. Just that they are way fewer than the Latin words in English (they make up only 10% of the vocabulary and most of them have also Latin synonyms).

Example (Slavic/Latin): slobozie/libertate (freedom); dragoste/amor (love), zapada/nea (snow), struna/coarda (string of a musical instrument, though the former is out of use, and has never been used much - it's just that I couldn't think of another example right now), ulita/strada (street, and again, "strada" is used probably over 95% of the time).

 

[aronnax]

Well, English does have three genders. It's just that we sensibly confine the masculine and feminine genders to things that really are masculine and feminine, leaving neuter for everything else. Odd that this doesn't seem to have occurred to most other languages...

I just dont get it how a German or Frenchman can go to a candlestick or whatever and call it a she

 

[Plotinus]

Simple - in those languages, "she" (or the equivalent) doesn't carry the same connotations that it does in English.

Of course, in Latin a candlestick is neuter - although a candle is feminine. Not sure why.

 

[Perfection]

candles are feminine but sticks are phallic so in the case of a candlestick they cancel each other out to make it neuter.

 

[Mirc]

Of course, in Latin a candlestick is neuter - although a candle is feminine. Not sure why.

Same in Romanian.

@Perfection: in Romanian, the scientific word for the phallus is neuter, and the vulgar one is feminine. What's the explanation of that?

 

[Tomoyo]

So you can say something like "Thar she blows!"?

 

[Sofista]

Having dropped neuter somewhere well before there was a written vulgar, we promptly declared the candlestick masculine (candelabro/candeliere), while keeping the candle (candela) feminine.

@Mirc: And because I just love arguing about genitals in the history forum, I'll tell you a curiosity: while as you know in Italian the phallus is masculine, oddly in Sicilian it is a feminine word.

 

[Arwon]

On the discussion of Latin and Germanic words in English, the reverse of the situation described by Sofista and Mirc also applies.

I'm finding that I have a much easier time figuring out what an unknown word might mean in Spanish than my German flatmates or Polish friends do, and it's because of the high number of cognates. I often think a particular word is very basic or obvious while they don't know it and can't work it out, even though in many cases their Spanish is a lot better, more sophisticated and more fluid than mine.

Question for sofista: The Spanish word for penis is 'pene'. There's a type of pasta called 'Penne'. What is the Italian word for penis?

 

[Mirc]

Having dropped neuter somewhere well before there was a written vulgar, we promptly declared the candlestick masculine (candelabro/candeliere), while keeping the candle (candela) feminine.

@Mirc: And because I just love arguing about genitals in the history forum, I'll tell you a curiosity: while as you know in Italian the phallus is masculine, oddly in Sicilian it is a feminine word.

Heh, this is not surprising at all, but those are very close to the Romanian ones:

candelabru/candelabre (neuter) (singular/plural)
as opposed to
candela/candele (feminine) (singular/plural)


And that's an interesting fact about Sicilian.

 

[Sofista]

@Arwon: indeed in polite Italian a "pene" is a "pene"; the difference with "penne" the pasta is evident to the initiated, because Italian gemination is not cosmetic. Try to pronounce "penne" making it last as long as, say, "pente" and you'll get the difference right out of your mouth.

@Mirc: the candelabru/e is close, but the candela/e is indeed identic! C'mon, whisper in my ear the vulgar one, let's see if they're somehow related

 

[Perfection]

Same in Romanian.

@Perfection: in Romanian, the scientific word for the phallus is neuter, and the vulgar one is feminine. What's the explanation of that?

Radical femminist PC mongers.


"Phalluses can be girls too"

 

[Bast]

the mixed vocabulary of English is, at times, tiring to people learning the language. you have tons of near-synonyms (short/brief, animal/beast, liberty/freedom, great/large/big) and a disassociated lexicon. there is no logical way to go from *holy* to *saint* where German simply adds a suffix (*heilig* - *Heiliger*) or from *mouth* to *oral* (*Mund* - *mündlich*, *oral* is used but usually only when talking about sex or medicine).

once you have mastered that stage, however, English is fun again

Actually that's THE fun part of English. Near-synonyms are just that. They're close but no cigar. There are many nuances to different words that on the surface appear to mean the same thing.

I think French and German genders are okay. They are annoying but okay. If you use the language for a long enough time you become familiar to them.

Although I didn't know that German genders can differ in parts of Germany. Ouch!

One thing I find annoying about French genders is that due to elision you get for example, l'oiseau. How then do you know whether it's male or female? At least, German doesn't have elision.

 

[Plotinus]

Sometimes there are general rules that you can learn. So you know that l'oiseau is masculine, because in French, all words that end in -eau are masculine.

Except for l'eau and la peau, which are feminine. But it wouldn't be fun if there weren't exceptions, would it?

 

[Bast]

Sometimes there are general rules that you can learn. So you know that l'oiseau is masculine, because in French, all words that end in -eau are masculine.

Except for l'eau and la peau, which are feminine. But it wouldn't be fun if there weren't exceptions, would it?

What's French without exceptions? Bah!

 

[Thorgalaeg]

Well, English does have three genders. It's just that we sensibly confine the masculine and feminine genders to things that really are masculine and feminine, leaving neuter for everything else. Odd that this doesn't seem to have occurred to most other languages...

I wonder why in English ships are femenine.