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Leader Ability Elimination Thread

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Kmart_Elvis, Oct 27, 2018.

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  1. TomKQT

    TomKQT Prince

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    I've noticed some remarks on the last few pages from people who judge the leaders also by other abilities ("Trajan gives a free route, too", "Comes with a great unique unit" etc.). I personaly was judging the leader abilities 100 % separately, IMHO nothing else should be involved here. We are not ranking the complex combo of leader ability and civilization abilities, that would have to be a separate elimination thread.

    Montezuma - Gifts for the Tlatoani [1+1 = 2] I prefer this over Tomyris, because you can quite soon get close to +5 bonus and even against non-wounded units. Plus you can get higher. Yes, it's not easy to have 5 luxury resources in your territory and yes, you will probably get to that quite late when the bonus doesn't matter so much anymore. But I like that Montezuma is also about amenities, you can deal better with war weariness. And this ability also has some effect when not at war, because amenities can be good (bonuses from being happy etc.). Tomyris is only about war (normal or religious).
    Qin Shi Huang - The First Emperor [21]
    Tomyris - Killer of Cyrus [18-3 = 15] - See the reasoning for Montezuma.
    Trajan - Trajan's Column [20]
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2018
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  2. BarbarianHunter

    BarbarianHunter King

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    Montezuma - Gifts for the Tlatoani [2]
    Qin Shi Huang - The First Emperor [21]
    Tomyris - Killer of Cyrus [16] (15+1) --- Every time I think on upvoting another of the remaining abilities, I always end up right back here.
    Trajan - Trajan's Column [17] (20-3) --- The Roman civ could be greater than the sum of its parts. Many certainly feel so. This ability, taken in isolation from the rest of Rome is outshined by other abilities that have been eliminated. So far as I know this is not a vote for civs in their entirety. I'm not upvoting a free monument. Just not going to do it. If I feel a monument to be of overawing importance, I can settle a lux & use funds from trading for a monument. Besides, with the early game penchant for war a significant number of cities will come from the AI for many of us. I know they do for me.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2018
  3. Leathaface

    Leathaface Emperor

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    Montezuma - Gifts for the Tlatoani [2]
    Qin Shi Huang - The First Emperor [21-3=18] This leader ability is well overrated. With every single Civ it is very easy to get +3 builder charges, which is a 100% increase. Yet a +1 builder charge, a 33% increase, is treated as some God tier ability on here. +1 builder charge would be good if you couldn't add builder charges at all in the game, but when every other Civ can easily add +3 builder charges it isn't special at all. Plus production towards wonders only lasts a couple of eras.
    Tomyris - Killer of Cyrus [16]
    Trajan - Trajan's Column [17+1=18] Rome gets a free monument in every city, an ability no other Civ has. Early culture gets you to (the very important) Political Philosophy quicker, other very good civics plus your borders expand quicker.
     
  4. Naeshar

    Naeshar Warlord

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    Montezuma - Gifts for the Tlatoani [3] (2 + 1) additional Strength works for all units, and I believe makes PC players consider it into your military strength unlike Tomyris's. Also useful both in war and peace
    Qin Shi Huang - The First Emperor [15] (18 - 3) Overrated. You can only utilize so many builder charges - and actually a liang+feudalism boosted ones are more than enough for each new city. Building anc+class wonders with them? Its actually like using pre-production instead of production.
    Tomyris - Killer of Cyrus [16]
    Trajan - Trajan's Column [18]
     
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  5. Icicle

    Icicle Prince

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    Montezuma - Gifts for the Tlatoani [4] (3+1) encourages a slightly different approach to the game which I find fun.
    Qin Shi Huang - The First Emperor [12] (15-3) it's not bad at all, just the weakest of the four remaining.

    Tomyris - Killer of Cyrus [16]
    Trajan - Trajan's Column [18]
     
  6. SumerianMonkey

    SumerianMonkey Chieftain

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    Montezuma - Gifts for the Tlatoani [4]
    Qin Shi Huang - The First Emperor [9] (12-9) Overvalued, not a military player but can respect their stronger abilities

    Tomyris - Killer of Cyrus [16]
    Trajan - Trajan's Column [19] (18+1) Culture snowball is definitely impactful
     
  7. ferretbacon

    ferretbacon Obsessor

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    Montezuma - Gifts for the Tlatoani [4]
    Qin Shi Huang - The First Emperor [9-3=6] Not as good as people think.
    Tomyris - Killer of Cyrus [16]
    Trajan - Trajan's Column [19+1=20] Very simple, but so so good.
     
  8. WillowBrook

    WillowBrook Lurker

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    Montezuma - Gifts for the Tlatoani [4-3=1] great ability, but doesn't kick in until you hook up a luxury, later than the others remaining
    Qin Shi Huang - The First Emperor [6+1=7] not quite time for this one to go
    Tomyris - Killer of Cyrus [16] thanks to those who have reminded me that I want to play a religious game with her one day
    Trajan - Trajan's Column [20]
     
  9. God of Kings

    God of Kings Ruler of all heads of state

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    Montezuma - Gifts for the Tlatoani [1-3=ELIMINATED] XIMICACAN!
    Qin Shi Huang - The First Emperor [7]
    Tomyris - Killer of Cyrus [16]
    Trajan - Trajan's Column [20+1=21] Win on the very first turn? Yes!
     
  10. Wit

    Wit Chieftain

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    Qin Shi Huang - The First Emperor [7+1=8] Empires are BUILD on the backs of BUILDers; yes, there are other means to gain additional builder charges, but Qin's bonus is in addition to those. Plus, the ability to rush early wonders is huge; it is the early wonders that are most valuable -- just check out the World Wonder Elimination thread, Qin can rush four of the top six, and all you need to do so is just four workers (without Liang/Feudalism)!!
    Tomyris - Killer of Cyrus [16-3=13] Just like Alexander, this is one of the best for domination. Just like Alexander, this is a one-trick pony. But this game is about more than combat, therefore: just like Alexander, this needs to be dropped.
    Trajan - Trajan's Column [21]
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2018
  11. bbbt

    bbbt Deity

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    Qin Shi Huang - The First Emperor [8-3=5] I'd say the weakest of then ones remaining.
    Tomyris - Killer of Cyrus [13+1=14] I want to give this a little love even if I'd likely rank Trajan higher. Ridiculously strong for domination but also works for religious combat (giving a big leg up if you are doing that angle) and helps with early Barb's and general defense
    Trajan - Trajan's Column [21]
     
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  12. Mesix

    Mesix The Allfather

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    Qin Shi Huang - The First Emperor [5 + 1 = 6] - Where did all of the hate for the best (hands down the best) leader ability suddenly come from? Up until yesterday there were one or two advocates for down voting based on flawed logic:

    "When I get to Feudalism, I get two builder charges" is illogical when you consider that Feudalism comes relatively late in the game after you might have 10 cities up and running and missed out on the early benefits. You may as well say that Tomyris ability is made obsolete by Medic support units.

    "I can hire Liang to get +1 builder charge" is a true statement, but so can China. You also pay the opportunity cost of not having Magnus as early to benefit from chops.


    Throw in the ability to literally chop your way to Ancient and Classical Era wonders (or an additional setter or two...or an early army) and this is an ability which truly outshines the rest!


    Tomyris - Killer of Cyrus [14 - 3 = 11] - It's good, but in the top three, the two building leader abilities outshine the military ability

    Trajan - Trajan's Column [21]
     
  13. Legacy of Smiles

    Legacy of Smiles Prince

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    Qin Shi Huang - The First Emperor [6-3=3] Builder governor + Monty >>> Qin + Magnus. This is way overdue to go - you're arguing an extra charge is the best ability in the game?
    Tomyris - Killer of Cyrus [11+1=12] Military abilities are sorely underrated in this thread.
    Trajan - Trajan's Column [21]
     
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  14. Leathaface

    Leathaface Emperor

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    Qin Shi Huang - The First Emperor [3-3= ELIMINATED] +1 Builder charge is nothing special when literally every Civ can get +3 builder charges easily. (Feudalism + Liang) If you couldn't get an extra builder charge elsewhere it would be good. Also rushing wonders only lasts for a small portion of the game. You could argue the only unique leader ability which China has is rushing early wonders since other Civs can get extra builder charges no problem, and if you were to only based your vote on rushing early wonders i've a feeling China would have been eliminated long ago.
    Tomyris - Killer of Cyrus [12]
    Trajan - Trajan's Column [21+1=22] Rome gets a free monument in every city, which is very handy, it can give you a really big boost early on. Early culture gets you to (the very important) Political Philosophy quicker, other very good civics plus your borders expand quicker which is powerful. I also like to peacefully expand so i'm not big on Tomyris ability, though it is very good.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2018
  15. Siptah

    Siptah Eternal Chieftain

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    Tomyris - Killer of Cyrus [12+1=13] will lose to Trajan anyway
    Trajan - Trajan's Column [22-3=19] leveling the field. It's super strong. A three year old child wins on deity with this one.
     
  16. TomKQT

    TomKQT Prince

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    Qin is the moral winner for me, considering he stayed here for so long even with the extreme effort of a single person, who gave him 17 downvotes (-68 points), almost 1 per page, which had to be balanced by 51 possitive votes :) But it was not against the rules of the game, I know. Just wanted to point this out, because the game works this way. I think most other people were giving their +/- points to different leaders during the game, not to just one.
    When entering the last page of votes, Qin had 21 points, which is just like at the beginning. He was eliminated by votes from different people on this page, but we still have to remember that in the previous 19 pages he had three times more possitive votes than negative votes, including the fact that 15 of the 23 downvotes (more than half) were by the same person.

    Tomyris - Killer of Cyrus [13-3 = 10] - Militaristic and thus not needed so much (wars are easy anyway and I am personally more of a peaceful player, typically)
    Trajan - Trajan's Column [19 + 1 = 20] - I said I considered Trajan and Qin on the same level, but if they were left the last two, I would have voted for Qin. Monument is great as a free building in the first few cities, it's absolutely fine that he is amongst the best two. But later in the game you can buy monument for a negligible amount of gold anyway, so this stops playing a huge role (I personally typically have too much money and no use for it). It's a little bit similar to Qin - the additional charge (and ability to speed wonders) plays big role in the beginnings and is less important later.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2018
  17. KayAU

    KayAU King

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    It's a shame to see Qin go before Tomyris, but at least it makes my choice easy now. It seems some people got hung up on the idea that you could get more builder charges elsewhere, and that 1 builder charge isn't that much. While there is some truth in that, it misses the vital points of early advantage, timing and opportunity cost. The extra builder charge will let you do more right at the beginning, when you need it the most. Let's take a look at the other sources of builder charges:
    • Liang - Liang will give you an extra builder charge for any builder trained in a city in which she is established. The ability becomes available when you get your first governor title, towards the end of the Ancient era, and then after a wait for her to get established. That is if you choose to get Liang first. Because it only applies to one city at a time, you will want to get all your builders from that city, which means you will be facing delays for your builders to get where they need to go. It also means that if later on you are rush buying lots of builders while having Serfdom swapped in for one turn, only one of those will get the extra charge. It also means that any builder gained from Ancestral Hall will never receive the extra charge. So in summary: comes much later, only applies to one city, requires investment of governor title. Overall, very much inferior to Qin's ability.
    • Serfdom - This policy gives you 2 extra charges, as well as letting you train builders faster. It is pretty great, but it only applies once you reach the Medieval Era, much, much later than Qin's ability. It also requires an economic policy slot.
    • Pyramids - A great wonder, which basically gives you the same 1 extra builder charge, as well as a free builder. You need to get those Pyramids first, though. Guess whose ability will let you consistently accomplish that?
    By rushing the Pyramids, Qin can have 5 charge builders coming out of every city from the Ancient Era. He can improve more, chop more, and rush more wonders. He gets that for free, without spending either policy slots and governor titles. He can spend that first governor title on Magnus to get even more from those chops. What can his competitors get at this point? 23% off the production time for builders with Ilkum, and a governor which gives 4 charge builders from 1 city.

    Qin's ability is great, and should have been a contender for the top spot. That said:
    Tomyris - Killer of Cyrus [10 - 3 = 7] It's a great, straightforward combat ability, certainly worthy of a high spot on the list. It is just a combat ability, though, so that is the one thing it is good for. Since I am not a warmonger, I must go with the other option here.
    Trajan - Trajan's Column [20 + 1 = 21] Instant advantage from turn 1. You will get great early culture production for no effort, and get an advantage which will help you throughout your game, regardless of which victory type you are going for.
     
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  18. AmazonQueen

    AmazonQueen Virago

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    Tomyris - Killer of Cyrus [ 7-3=4] - Good for one thing and very good at it, but not the aspect of the game I concentrate on.
    Trajan - Trajan's Column [ 21+1] - Better abilities have been voted off, but this is at least useful every game every victory type.
     
  19. Kimiimaro

    Kimiimaro King

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    Tomyris - Killer of Cyrus [4-3=1] - Who shall end its suffering?
    Trajan - Trajan's Column [21+1=22] - Sadly, while Tomyris has an awesome combat ability, Trajan offers an ability that is useful in every victory. Saves production/money, gives you more culture, and I believe with this comes faster border growth.
     
  20. sadsquid

    sadsquid Warlord

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    Looks like Qin going out (deservedly IMO) touched a nerve lol

    Tomyris - Killer of Cyrus [ELIMINATED] great ability. But not the #1

    Trajan - Trajan's Column [22+1=23] worthy of the top spot
     
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