Leader Discussion - Ada Lovelace

[disjointaccount]

Inspired by @bengalryan9's Civ discussion, (and in further service of having some discussions that aren't just about why people dislike the game) I figured it might be nice to have leader discussions running concurrently to the civ ones, given that "civ" is no longer (more or less) synonymous with "leader".

Starting alphabetically, the first leader is Ada Lovelace.
Her leader ability is Enchantress of Numbers, which is a two-part ability:

• Cities receive +2 Science per Age when you complete a Civic Mastery. This resets at the start of each Age.
• Gain Culture equal to 50% of your total Science per turn when you complete a Technology Mastery.

Her attributes are Cultural and Scientific, giving her access to the Cultural Exchange and Research Collaboration endeavors, along with an event for an attribute point upon researching Writing (per this post).
She has no starting bias.
Her only civ unlock is Great Britain, in the Modern Age (who are otherwise unlocked by having two Fleet Commanders)
As an AI leader, her agenda is Analytical Engine - Increase Relationship by a Small Amount for the leader with the most Masteries. Decrease Relationship by a Small Amount for the leader with the fewest Masteries.

So what are everyone's thoughts? Likes/dislikes? Fun strategies? Good civs to pair her with?

 

[protocol7]

I like playing as her, I can't figure out yet if I do better in a science game as her or Ben.

 

[Navelgazer]

She's among the top Leaders for me in terms of total XP, and one of the most fun and interesting ones, IMO. It's really hard for me to gauge how good she is in a vacuum, though, since she has so much synergy with Maya it's hilarious, and Maya is already OP without that pairing. I should try a couple of games starting her with someone else, maybe, but also... why would I? It feels like throwing her Uniques away.

Anyway, it's interesting that she starts each age effectively blank and then eventually snowballs into a pretty solid lead on Science and Culture. There's also a bit of finesse in deciding when to start gobbling up masteries, since early on you might only have one city, and your beakers-per-turn might not be high enough to make it worthwhile. Playing as Maya makes this decision a bit easier, since you'll want to get your Uwaybil K'uh online and Calendar Round completed and then you can just go to town.

Cultural/Scientific is one of the best Attribute combos in the game, if not THE best, IMO. Only Catherine shares it (as a Leader, anyway - Abbasid and Russia have it as Civs.) I say this because of the endeavors available to you. The three attribute endeavors which are (pretty much) always useful are Cultural, Scientific, and Economic. Militaristic is useful if you're engaged in combat, but that makes it situational. Expansionist is ok, and better since the food patch, but generally pretty underwhelming IMO. Diplomatic is underwhelming most of the time (but really nice when you need it! Also the Dilpo attribute helps you progress along the Diplo tree, which is super useful, so I don't mind the endeavor being mid, it's just funny to me that arguably the weakest of the endeavors is given to the civs/leaders who are presumably using endeavors the most. But that'ds a tangent.)

The point is that the Cultural, Scientific and Economic endeavors are always good, except in edge cases towards the end of an age where you'd rather not speed up Future Techs/Future Civics since you're trying to finish out a path or two, or when you already have more money than you can really spend before the age ends and it'd be better to save up your Influence or else spend it elsewhere. The current leaders that get two of these three are: Ada Lovelace, Catherine (both Cultural/Scientific), Hatshepsut and Xerxes, Achaemenid (both Cultural/Economic.) There are currently no Economic/Scientific leaders (and only one civ - Ming.)

Having access to both is great, at least for how I play. Especially since I feel like Culture is generally more important towards the beginning of an age, and then Science eclipses it more as the age progresses. Ada is set up well to push Culture early and then shift to Science, using the Culture set-up to bolster scientific production.

As an end-note, I'm not sure why this is, but in every game I've played with her as an AI participant, the rest of the leaders have absolutely hated her. No idea what that's about, but it amuses me.

 

[Leucarum]

Her jersey colour alone makes her a win for me.

She's arguably one of the most mechanically potent leaders out there. She has the best endeavour combos and her ability is just raw effectiveness which works in most contexts. It isn't though a particularly interesting ability, making her feel quite bland as a leader. I would suspect she's high on the leaderboard for min/maxers player types, lower on the leaderboard for roleplayers.

 

[uppi]

She's arguably one of the most mechanically potent leaders out there. She has the best endeavour combos and her ability is just raw effectiveness which works in most contexts. It isn't though a particularly interesting ability, making her feel quite bland as a leader. I would suspect she's high on the leaderboard for min/maxers player types, lower on the leaderboard for roleplayers.

I agree, also because none of the civs in what I consider her roleplay stack (Rome - Normans - Great Britain) plays into her abilities very well.

Maya is the obvious choice for Antiquity. I haven't tried it, but Aksum could also be good: Spam Halwits for culture and then convert that into science. There is also an argument for Greece: If you can nab a scientific and a cultural IP early and pick the free tech/civic option, you would typically get a mastery as the free tech/civic.

In Exploration, I'd go for Abbasid or Hawaii, but those are tricky unlocks. Maybe also Ming? I guess you'll have to take what is available, since she does not really have a way to guarantee a good option.

Modern: Maybe Meiji? Mexico? France?

 

[disjointaccount]

I like playing as her, I can't figure out yet if I do better in a science game as her or Ben.

I'd say I find Ben a little better for science, with the flipside being that he's more of a one-trick pony whereas Ada can keep up respectable culture as well.

She's among the top Leaders for me in terms of total XP, and one of the most fun and interesting ones, IMO. It's really hard for me to gauge how good she is in a vacuum, though, since she has so much synergy with Maya it's hilarious, and Maya is already OP without that pairing. I should try a couple of games starting her with someone else, maybe, but also... why would I? It feels like throwing her Uniques away.

Anyway, it's interesting that she starts each age effectively blank and then eventually snowballs into a pretty solid lead on Science and Culture. There's also a bit of finesse in deciding when to start gobbling up masteries, since early on you might only have one city, and your beakers-per-turn might not be high enough to make it worthwhile. Playing as Maya makes this decision a bit easier, since you'll want to get your Uwaybil K'uh online and Calendar Round completed and then you can just go to town.

Cultural/Scientific is one of the best Attribute combos in the game, if not THE best, IMO. Only Catherine shares it (as a Leader, anyway - Abbasid and Russia have it as Civs.) I say this because of the endeavors available to you. The three attribute endeavors which are (pretty much) always useful are Cultural, Scientific, and Economic. Militaristic is useful if you're engaged in combat, but that makes it situational. Expansionist is ok, and better since the food patch, but generally pretty underwhelming IMO. Diplomatic is underwhelming most of the time (but really nice when you need it! Also the Dilpo attribute helps you progress along the Diplo tree, which is super useful, so I don't mind the endeavor being mid, it's just funny to me that arguably the weakest of the endeavors is given to the civs/leaders who are presumably using endeavors the most. But that'ds a tangent.)

The point is that the Cultural, Scientific and Economic endeavors are always good, except in edge cases towards the end of an age where you'd rather not speed up Future Techs/Future Civics since you're trying to finish out a path or two, or when you already have more money than you can really spend before the age ends and it'd be better to save up your Influence or else spend it elsewhere. The current leaders that get two of these three are: Ada Lovelace, Catherine (both Cultural/Scientific), Hatshepsut and Xerxes, Achaemenid (both Cultural/Economic.) There are currently no Economic/Scientific leaders (and only one civ - Ming.)

Having access to both is great, at least for how I play. Especially since I feel like Culture is generally more important towards the beginning of an age, and then Science eclipses it more as the age progresses. Ada is set up well to push Culture early and then shift to Science, using the Culture set-up to bolster scientific production.

As an end-note, I'm not sure why this is, but in every game I've played with her as an AI participant, the rest of the leaders have absolutely hated her. No idea what that's about, but it amuses me.

Good writeup, I agree with pretty much everything you said. Ada + launch Maya was absurd. I think the endeavor types are a slept on aspect of leaders' power, at least in the discussions I've seen on the topic. 6 science or culture per turn is significant in the early game, and I consider it a major point in Ada and Catherine's favour that they get access to both.

I've noticed the AI hating her too. I suspect it might actually be a case of the her hating them, given that we know the AI tends to largely ignore masteries (at least early on), hence how us lowly humans can scrounge up the likes of the Gate of All Nations and the Emile Bell. Maybe by the time the AI gets around to working back through the masteries, it's too late and their relationship with Ada is already in the gutter?

 

[Calcifer]

The three attribute endeavors which are (pretty much) always useful are Cultural, Scientific, and Economic. Militaristic is useful if you're engaged in combat, but that makes it situational. Expansionist is ok, and better since the food patch, but generally pretty underwhelming IMO. Diplomatic is underwhelming most of the time (but really nice when you need it! Also the Dilpo attribute helps you progress along the Diplo tree, which is super useful, so I don't mind the endeavor being mid, it's just funny to me that arguably the weakest of the endeavors is given to the civs/leaders who are presumably using endeavors the most. But that'ds a tangent.)

Strange, I’ve always thought the opposite. Science, culture and economic are super good at the beginning of the game but then fall off pretty hard, to the point of being nearly useless in exploration and modern when your yields are in the hundreds.

Military, expansionist and diplomatic on the other hand scale pretty well through the whole game.

 

[queenpea]

UrsaRyan recently posted a tier list of all leaders so far. She didn’t fare so well. I was surprised at first, but reflecting on the many games I’ve played as her—none of them went particularly splendidly.

Love her dress though.

 

[disjointaccount]

UrsaRyan recently posted a tier list of all leaders so far. She didn’t fare so well. I was surprised at first, but reflecting on the many games I’ve played as her—none of them went particularly splendidly.

Love her dress though.

I saw his video; I think I broadly agreed with his general sentiments towards leaders but there were definitely a couple of placements I raised an eyebrow at. He didn't seem to be considering endeavor types, which I felt meant Ada and especially Catherine got a harsh rating.

(And just on the topic, I remember he put Isabella very low on the basis of inconsistency but he stated at the start he was ranking based on single player, where, to my mind, the reset button negates her spawn bias variance.)

 

[queenpea]

I saw his video; I think I broadly agreed with his general sentiments towards leaders but there were definitely a couple of placements I raised an eyebrow at. He didn't seem to be considering endeavor types, which I felt meant Ada and especially Catherine got a harsh rating.

(And just on the topic, I remember he put Isabella very low on the basis of inconsistency but he stated at the start he was ranking based on single player, where, to my mind, the reset button negates her spawn bias variance.)

He definitely mentioned the endeavors when it came to Catherine, saying that cultural/scientific is a strong combination. One of his problems with Catherine was that succeeding with her is map dependent and requires a lot of tundra. This is the same kind of problem he addressed with Trung but with tropical tiles. I definitely thought he was being consistent though I was surprised by his take on a number of leaders, particularly Trung and Isabella. I've played with both a lot and am realizing now I might have handicapped myself.

 

[Leucarum]

I agree, also because none of the civs in what I consider her roleplay stack (Rome - Normans - Great Britain) plays into her abilities very well.

Maya is the obvious choice for Antiquity. I haven't tried it, but Aksum could also be good: Spam Halwits for culture and then convert that into science. There is also an argument for Greece: If you can nab a scientific and a cultural IP early and pick the free tech/civic option, you would typically get a mastery as the free tech/civic.

In Exploration, I'd go for Abbasid or Hawaii, but those are tricky unlocks. Maybe also Ming? I guess you'll have to take what is available, since she does not really have a way to guarantee a good option.

Modern: Maybe Meiji? Mexico? France?

Some civs really struggle for science, Carthage comes to mind. She can help shore up a weakness there. I also think it's worth looking at how many unique civic masteries a civ has on their tree. Particularly in modern a bunch of civs have very flat trees (Qing and Mughals have none for example) which means less science buffs

 

[disjointaccount]

He definitely mentioned the endeavors when it came to Catherine, saying that cultural/scientific is a strong combination. One of his problems with Catherine was that succeeding with her is map dependent and requires a lot of tundra. This is the same kind of problem he addressed with Trung but with tropical tiles. I definitely thought he was being consistent though I was surprised by his take on a number of leaders, particularly Trung and Isabella. I've played with both a lot and am realizing now I might have handicapped myself.

Isabella I can see the inconsistency, but Trung Trac and Catherine I don't think I've ever spawned outside of the tropical/tundra respectively. I actually think Catherine's spawn bias is one of her best assets, since she's the only one with a tundra bias and that's where all the best resources are.

 

[queenpea]

I think it's more about how much tundra / tropical you have available. Yes, you have a starting bias -- but how does the map generate?

 

[uppi]

Some civs really struggle for science, Carthage comes to mind. She can help shore up a weakness there. I also think it's worth looking at how many unique civic masteries a civ has on their tree. Particularly in modern a bunch of civs have very flat trees (Qing and Mughals have none for example) which means less science buffs

Carthage also struggles for culture, so I would fear that you would have a hard time getting the ball rolling with Ada. I would prefer a more immediate bonus for shoring up Carthage's weaknesses.

 

[Lord Lakely]

I haven't tried her yet, but I'm a bit sceptical whether she's that strong. Science really isn't a real thing in this game, neither are wonders.

The free culture she gets is good though, but I think it's more important to play a Cultural or Scientific Civ at a certain point than it is to be Cultural or Scientific yourself. The free Civics and Techs you get from being a Suzerain of many Independents take care of that by itself. Economic is where the real value lies, at least on Sovereign.

 

[queenpea]

Carthage also struggles for culture, so I would fear that you would have a hard time getting the ball rolling with Ada. I would prefer a more immediate bonus for shoring up Carthage's weaknesses.

Augustus fixes the issue Carthage has with culture. Isabella does ok if you get a natural wonder with a culture bonus at start.

 

[Leucarum]

The free culture she gets is good though, but I think it's more important to play a Cultural or Scientific Civ at a certain point than it is to be Cultural or Scientific yourself.

In age 1 getting cultural/scientific agreement right at the start can be a huge boost. Snowballing is still a thing! The value definitely decreases after that though

 

[Lord Lakely]

In age 1 getting cultural/scientific agreement right at the start can be a huge boost. Snowballing is still a thing! The value definitely decreases after that though

Fair point. What I would weigh that against is becoming Suzerain, and getting the bonuses that give free Techs and Civics, or those that give +5% for every City State vassal. That ticks up very nicely too, even in Antiquity.

Just based on the description of her kit, Ada vibes weaker than Catherine, whom I've already played (and won) a game with. Catherine + Rome in rough tundra is something I hope to never encounter as an AI.

 

[Leucarum]

Fair point. What I would weigh that against is becoming Suzerain, and getting the bonuses that give free Techs and Civics, or those that give +5% for every City State vassal. That ticks up very nicely too, even in Antiquity.

Just based on the description of her kit, Ada vibes weaker than Catherine, whom I've already played (and won) a game with. Catherine + Rome in rough tundra is something I hope to never encounter as an AI.

It's true, but suzerains get more valuable after the start and you aren't really falling behind the Suzerain race if target AI is supporting your offers. You also have jo guarantee of getting your desired city state subtype. I think the ideal is to start with endeavours and flip to city states before the AI does...

I agree that Catherine is probably better but you can definitely play either in a very similar way. I don't think there's much in it. And Ada has the best map colour. On Wednesday we paint the map pink.