Ahriman
Tyrant
I don't think arab caravans should be more profitable than sea trade routes. If just means they need to be better than the caravans of other civs, and to give the religious spread bonus.
Leaders: BNW Adaptation
- Thread starter Thalassicus
- Start date
Just a thought on America...
Since it's easier to modify existing game elements than create new ones, how about just lowering the cost of the American Pioneer/Settler to maybe 2/3rds or one half the current value along with keeping the current effects. That would be more powerful.
Since it's easier to modify existing game elements than create new ones, how about just lowering the cost of the American Pioneer/Settler to maybe 2/3rds or one half the current value along with keeping the current effects. That would be more powerful.
Anastase Alex
Warlord
Greece:
Greece feels a bit uniteresting... the stronger militaristic CS bonus requires a militaristic CS in the first place, and +2 culture per city, while a good yield, does not feel very hellenic.
In ancient greece each city had some characteristics (athens is navy and sciences, sparta is fierce warriors, thebes had the walls and trade, delphi the oracle (religion), epidaur the theater and healing...) and it did feal very city states.
Could we not represent that with a bonus to building diversity in cities? All buildings get yield +1 for each other city you control that does not have this building.
Also as UB: temple to xenias zeus, replaces temple, adds +2 to resting point of influence with city states?
England:
I would like to add a nodge to piracy to the UA: double gold when plundering a sea trade root.
Greece feels a bit uniteresting... the stronger militaristic CS bonus requires a militaristic CS in the first place, and +2 culture per city, while a good yield, does not feel very hellenic.
In ancient greece each city had some characteristics (athens is navy and sciences, sparta is fierce warriors, thebes had the walls and trade, delphi the oracle (religion), epidaur the theater and healing...) and it did feal very city states.
Could we not represent that with a bonus to building diversity in cities? All buildings get yield +1 for each other city you control that does not have this building.
Also as UB: temple to xenias zeus, replaces temple, adds +2 to resting point of influence with city states?
England:
I would like to add a nodge to piracy to the UA: double gold when plundering a sea trade root.
Ahriman
Tyrant
How so? Hellenic culture dominated a huge area of Europe and the middle east for centuries, and is the foundation of western civilization in general. They built their colonies all over the Mediterranean and Black Sea, and spread their culture as they did so.
So I think the culture effect is very flavorful.
That sounds quite complex to implement, and probably difficult for the AI to understand.
Ahriman
Tyrant
More thoughts:
For Arabia, if we wanted a unique Caravanersai, it would have to give a significant benefit to be worth building in multiple places. +3 gold, still no maintenance cost?
Maybe instant gold when you built it, a bit like the Chinese paper maker?
Maybe make it purchasable with faith? That way, you can spread your religion through trade routes rather than missionaries, and use the faith to buy your UBs.
For Songhai:
I think they need a more interesting UA. They're an aggressive civ, so something that works well with warfare would be good. Maybe faith generation from combat victories?
That could be very powerful if it let you get a pantheon out from barb fighting. Maybe it would only apply to combat victories against other players, not against barbarians.
Or they could get the formerly German military unit maintenance cost reduction, which would help them with a large army. Askia was supposedly a good administrator.
But fast archers just makes no historic/flavor sense (they weren't renowned for archers) and I prefer to avoid vanguards altogether.
For Arabia, if we wanted a unique Caravanersai, it would have to give a significant benefit to be worth building in multiple places. +3 gold, still no maintenance cost?
Maybe instant gold when you built it, a bit like the Chinese paper maker?
Maybe make it purchasable with faith? That way, you can spread your religion through trade routes rather than missionaries, and use the faith to buy your UBs.
For Songhai:
I think they need a more interesting UA. They're an aggressive civ, so something that works well with warfare would be good. Maybe faith generation from combat victories?
That could be very powerful if it let you get a pantheon out from barb fighting. Maybe it would only apply to combat victories against other players, not against barbarians.
Or they could get the formerly German military unit maintenance cost reduction, which would help them with a large army. Askia was supposedly a good administrator.
But fast archers just makes no historic/flavor sense (they weren't renowned for archers) and I prefer to avoid vanguards altogether.
Thoughts.
1) Why the settler UU? Making it cheaper doesn't really help either. It's just an odd idea for a UU.
2) I can see good arguments for the Dutch getting the 2x luxuries, but some kind of naval benefit for them would be useful. They also don't have any trade route tie-ins.
3) +1 vote per city could be game-breaking. I do like an option for engineering style focus (perhaps from a building for GE rate rather than from a UA?), and I do like Germany somehow getting extra votes for Bismarck, just not potentially 10-15 of them.
4) I don't mind a naval UU for Rome, as their navy was important. But I'd like to see some kind of benefit for encouraging conquest/wide and we used +1
(national) on markets before to do this, which wasn't a bad idea (if overlapping the American UA). What about +1 local happiness in Rome per city controlled? The Glory of Rome effect isn't that bad for now that it needs immediate replacement. I don't find it that dull, if you have encouragement to be wide and aggressive it works quite well.
5) Songhai faster units doesn't work for me either. I'm also leaning toward vanguards not coming back (with maybe a melee land unit or two added in to fill in gaps instead), but faster archers already doesn't make any sense. Faith from kills is on the Picts for Celts, it could work as a UA instead for someone. Zulus get the unit upkeep cost.
1) Why the settler UU? Making it cheaper doesn't really help either. It's just an odd idea for a UU.
2) I can see good arguments for the Dutch getting the 2x luxuries, but some kind of naval benefit for them would be useful. They also don't have any trade route tie-ins.
3) +1 vote per city could be game-breaking. I do like an option for engineering style focus (perhaps from a building for GE rate rather than from a UA?), and I do like Germany somehow getting extra votes for Bismarck, just not potentially 10-15 of them.
4) I don't mind a naval UU for Rome, as their navy was important. But I'd like to see some kind of benefit for encouraging conquest/wide and we used +1
(national) on markets before to do this, which wasn't a bad idea (if overlapping the American UA). What about +1 local happiness in Rome per city controlled? The Glory of Rome effect isn't that bad for now that it needs immediate replacement. I don't find it that dull, if you have encouragement to be wide and aggressive it works quite well. 5) Songhai faster units doesn't work for me either. I'm also leaning toward vanguards not coming back (with maybe a melee land unit or two added in to fill in gaps instead), but faster archers already doesn't make any sense. Faith from kills is on the Picts for Celts, it could work as a UA instead for someone. Zulus get the unit upkeep cost.
Ahriman
Tyrant
My main concern is that it doesn't really work for a gameplay perspective - do we really expect Germany to be going for a diplomatic victory?
And it's also a bit weird from a historic perspective: in all the 19th century machinations, Prussia and then Germany did not do very well in terms of great power politics at all. It acquired few colonies (and those were generally the places no-one else wanted), it wasn't particularly successful in getting territorial claims recognized, etc.. The main victories came through military strength and intimidation. Britain, France and Russia were surely the winners of the great power politics era that the world congress is simulating.
My thoughts on Germany:
First off, I like how the Vanilla UA got scrapped. As a German I fail to understand what it's supposed to be to this day.
Next thing that shouldn't be there is the Panzer. It comes too late to have an effect on most games. It is also not very German or much fun to use. Keep the Landsknecht instead if a UU is needed or get Prussian Grenadiers.
As an UA I propose bonuses to a wide empire. There aren't too many Civs with such a focus and Germany has a very long history of decentralization. To this day there is no large dominating city in Germany. Our federalism traces back ~800 years to the Holy Roman Empire.
This trait is also partially a reason for Germany's rather unique economy and the base for various scientific and cultural archievements.
Such bonuses could be: reduced
from the number of cities (maybe higher from population), higher income from city connections, a higher production bonus from railroads, beakers or culture from city connections.
A cool UB would be the Hanse Kontor as a replacement for the seaport. It increases the value of a traderoute if classic Hansa tradegoods are present. Such goods would be Furs, Salt, Wine and Whales. Possibly sugar, cotton and dyes. Could also increase gold from the tiles which produce these goods.
@Ahriman, your historical perspective is off. Prussia gained Silesia through aggression and that's it. Coming from a backwater in Poland and becoming one of Europes great powers like this kinda looks like good diplomacy to me.
And I didn't even start about Bismarck and how he united a country divided for over 1000 years without conquest. He also did very well as chancellor until he got axed by this dumbass Wilhelm II.
First off, I like how the Vanilla UA got scrapped. As a German I fail to understand what it's supposed to be to this day.
Next thing that shouldn't be there is the Panzer. It comes too late to have an effect on most games. It is also not very German or much fun to use. Keep the Landsknecht instead if a UU is needed or get Prussian Grenadiers.
As an UA I propose bonuses to a wide empire. There aren't too many Civs with such a focus and Germany has a very long history of decentralization. To this day there is no large dominating city in Germany. Our federalism traces back ~800 years to the Holy Roman Empire.
This trait is also partially a reason for Germany's rather unique economy and the base for various scientific and cultural archievements.
Such bonuses could be: reduced
from the number of cities (maybe higher from population), higher income from city connections, a higher production bonus from railroads, beakers or culture from city connections.A cool UB would be the Hanse Kontor as a replacement for the seaport. It increases the value of a traderoute if classic Hansa tradegoods are present. Such goods would be Furs, Salt, Wine and Whales. Possibly sugar, cotton and dyes. Could also increase gold from the tiles which produce these goods.
@Ahriman, your historical perspective is off. Prussia gained Silesia through aggression and that's it. Coming from a backwater in Poland and becoming one of Europes great powers like this kinda looks like good diplomacy to me.
And I didn't even start about Bismarck and how he united a country divided for over 1000 years without conquest. He also did very well as chancellor until he got axed by this dumbass Wilhelm II.
I think the American UA could be improved, and I agree that the Pioneer experiment did not work out very well.
+1 sight (does this apply to ALL units?) and +1 civilian movement (does this apply to Great People/Prophets and Archaeologists?) is good and should stay IMHO. I think the civilian movement bonus is secretly better than a lot of people give it credit for, especially once Great Musicians, Prophets, and Archaeologists come into the mix.
The +1, however, seems bland to me. I think that there's a better way to encourage Washington to expand and be good at it, while still keeping in flavor with America's history and theme.
If we look at the history of America, what stands out to me compared to other countries is that America grew very, very quickly when it wanted to - observe the whole period of westward expansionism and gold rushes. This is also something that's very strongly felt in cultural memory with games like Oregon Trail, endless amounts of media about the Wild West and pioneer settlements (Little House in the Big Woods), a general sense of "ruggedness" and "self-reliance" and Protestant work ethic. It's iconic. People know and revere the idea of the American Pioneer. It even shows up during modern eras - the 60s Space Race, anyone? Final Frontier, colonizing space, and all that rhetoric constantly invoked the idea of American pioneerism. But having a specific Pioneer UU didn't work out all that well.
However, this same pioneer spirit is also seen in the many boom towns (observe the quantity of American examples) where people would flock and set up an entire city very quickly, including some very major cities like Chicago, Atlanta, and San Francisco.
So I propose, instead of +1, America instead gets Tile Improvements are built X% more quickly. This would fit both with America's expansionist theme and with their ability to create thriving towns in the blink of an eye if there's a particularly juicy spot for a city - say, a place with three gold resources on hills? 
As for the Pioneer UU, I feel it's best replaced with a military UU rather than an UB, unless you wanted to give America a lategame UB along the lines of Skyscrapers replacing Broadcast Towers. I don't think UBs are necessary to provide uniqueness to a civilization, and I don't mind playing double-UU civs at all.
+1 sight (does this apply to ALL units?) and +1 civilian movement (does this apply to Great People/Prophets and Archaeologists?) is good and should stay IMHO. I think the civilian movement bonus is secretly better than a lot of people give it credit for, especially once Great Musicians, Prophets, and Archaeologists come into the mix.
The +1
, however, seems bland to me. I think that there's a better way to encourage Washington to expand and be good at it, while still keeping in flavor with America's history and theme.If we look at the history of America, what stands out to me compared to other countries is that America grew very, very quickly when it wanted to - observe the whole period of westward expansionism and gold rushes. This is also something that's very strongly felt in cultural memory with games like Oregon Trail, endless amounts of media about the Wild West and pioneer settlements (Little House in the Big Woods), a general sense of "ruggedness" and "self-reliance" and Protestant work ethic. It's iconic. People know and revere the idea of the American Pioneer. It even shows up during modern eras - the 60s Space Race, anyone? Final Frontier, colonizing space, and all that rhetoric constantly invoked the idea of American pioneerism. But having a specific Pioneer UU didn't work out all that well.
However, this same pioneer spirit is also seen in the many boom towns (observe the quantity of American examples) where people would flock and set up an entire city very quickly, including some very major cities like Chicago, Atlanta, and San Francisco.
So I propose, instead of +1
, America instead gets Tile Improvements are built X% more quickly. This would fit both with America's expansionist theme and with their ability to create thriving towns in the blink of an eye if there's a particularly juicy spot for a city - say, a place with three gold resources on hills? As for the Pioneer UU, I feel it's best replaced with a military UU rather than an UB, unless you wanted to give America a lategame UB along the lines of Skyscrapers replacing Broadcast Towers. I don't think UBs are necessary to provide uniqueness to a civilization, and I don't mind playing double-UU civs at all.
Ahriman
Tyrant
I'm talking about the Franco-Prussian war and the subsequent unification of Germany. Would Prussia really have been able to lead German unification without the victory over Austria in 1866 and then over France in 1870? Prussia's rise to power over the 18th and 19th centuries was very much due to it's military success. Holding those gains together certainly took diplomatic skill, but that isn't the same as having international influence.
In my view the World Congress is trying to represent 19th century (and then 20th century) great power diplomacy, in which Prussia was a fairly minor player - except through the threat of it's military power. For sure they had a huge impact in Central Europe, but not much on the rest of the world - on the territorial claims of colonies, on the influence of minor powers, on the ordering of the international arena. Think about the Race for Africa, the Great Game in central Asia, the dividing up of the middle east, the colonial influence in Asia.
And of course Germany had no significant influence on the League of Nations or United Nations.
Bismark was certainly amazingly successful, but Prussia and then Germany had much less international influence than Britain, France, or Russia. So I'm not sure that extra World Congress votes really make sense.
Decentralization, yes, but not really expansionism, for most of it's history. And we already have a fair number of wide powers - Ottomans, Russia, Shoshone, Rome, America, etc.
And Germany is pretty densely populated.
A naval bonus really doesn't make sense to me either. German power was land based, at least until the turn of the 19th/20th century. The Hanseatic League isn't just a German thing, and even then that was just regional trade power. I don't think it makes sense for us to be trying to have Germany play out as a coastal power (and if you don't play coastal then a seaport UB isn't much use).
I'm glad to move away from the gothic barbarian flavor from vanilla, but I think we want something which hangs together in a gameplay sense and with better flavor. Germany had a reputation for industry, engineering, and science, and for a disciplined and high quality military. I think those are the best things to focus on. The panzer isn't amazingly useful, but it's very iconic and is ok as a secondary ability, where most of the faction power comes from UA and the other unique slot.
* * *
I find sight and civilian movement increases to be fairly dull and not that useful.
I don't really think faster worker production is all that good, and there are already effects that give this in Liberty and from the Pyramids. I think something different in terms of rapid expansion works better. And happiness is the main barrier to expansion, not worker production, so the extra happiness certainly helps.
Naeven
Warlord
+1.
Engineering bonus seems the way to go since Babylon & Korea already exist for Science.
Since Austria is in the game, I don't think the HRE days is the best inspiration for Germany. Germany should focus on a Prussian post-unification theme.
The Franco-Prussian war in itself is an example of great diplomacy. Still, I agree with you that congress votes shouldn't be Bismarcks special ability.
Btw, the Berlin Congress and the Berlin Conference sure had a rather large influence on minor powers (and major like the Ottomans) and the ordering of the international arena. "Minor player" is a pretty harsh understatement. I'd say on par with France which was increasingly isolated in the late 19th century.
Ofc the Haneatic League is a German thing. It was run by German merchants from Lübeck. And yes, it was a regional trade power but that's what Venice was as well and they got their own Civ.
I just tried to find something fresh. Not like the Panzer, beating dead horses over and over and over and over and over again.
Panzers would be a better fit for the Autocracy ideology. Bonus units like the Foreign Legion in the Freedom tree.
On the disciplined and high quality military note: the only thing Germany had was good commanders and guys who knew how to make good propaganda. (Granted, they also had very well drilled soldiers in Prussia for some time)
mitsho
Deity
Next step, I'll tackle 4 more (and again) for myself:
Germany: @Grimlin, Willkommen, du hast gute Ideen, aber falsch begonnen (Good Ideas, but you started the wrong way). Rather than proposing single UU's, first set a theme for the civ. For the Germany of the OP this is warmongerer from the start who can "ignore" the World Congress and has a late boost. Conquest often means not having many CS friends which equals few votes in the Congress which means Resolutions contrary to your interests get passed. Germany should turn the tide here. (And @Ahriman, the Diplomatic Genius of the Germans does refer to the unification through Prussia which required lots of it, even though it did bring Prussia to the brink of defeat in the 18th century (read up on Old Fritz f.e.). But it can also refer to the current situation where the Germans became the "Kings of Europe" even though they didn't really want it (this time
). And then there's the Berlin Conference of 188something on Africa. Metternich was Austrian, but we know that distinction is a bit fuzzy as well ) Shall I go on?
I like that theme and I don't want to go back to a Engineering theme. That one can become quite bland (I haven't played Babylon once because of that). I could see the "Elite Unit"-UA get passed on to Sweden (I don't like the farm UA), but it does fit Germany. I feel we just need to find a good way to translate that "can ignore the World Congress" to a Unique (Building)
Arabia: See, we forgot the theme in the discussion above. I agree that a Tourism bonus isn't the best, why don't we have a religion+money civ after all? The Desert bonus may be situational, but it can be quite strong. I don't think focusing it on Land Trade is a good idea (a) it's not historical, b) it's more flexible the other way and c) it isn't a particular enticing way of playing the game, such as Polynesian Exploration is...
UA: Trade Routes (only them) treat desert as roads (= increased range through desert) + Desert Movement for Units (to protect them in the desert) + religion spreads through all trade routes
UB: Madrassa or Bazaar: Faith (or Science for the Madrasa?) per trade route to this city
UU: Camel Archer stays
Fixed the "no religion bonus", but didn't make it particularly about gold
One problem though, we changed Arabia from a wide civ in GEM to a Tall one (contained to the deserts?). Or is that a problem?
The thing with the "desert acts as roads for trade routes" is that is that it increases the range, but not in a radius, but selectively... I think the extra range primarily gives more cities = better choice for a good route. In the early game, that's mostly too unsafe though. The extra gold should be minuscule for Arabia here though, no?
America: What people seem to miss with the Pioneer is that it is needed with the UA. If your settler moves faster than the warrior or archer accompanying it, the extra speed is for naught. But then again, I do not protect them directly as much as in civ4 since add sight and 1 Upt often means they're safe already.
On the other hand, does America really need another boost. Fast Workers does mean they can move onto rough terrain and start working right now, right? So that's good, extra sight is undervalued, we already know that. 1 happiness per city is strong as well. And the Space Factory can be a real killer, we know for experience. I'm okay if America gets a "dud" UU...
The civ seems solidly designed to me, even though the extra worker working speed proposed above might be a good replacement for the passive happiness (=faster linked up luxuries). But it isn't as flexible as the happiness (settle where YOU want).
Celts: See the Opening Post. Thal asks us for ideas here especially!
I felt the forest-faith bonus was a bit forced from the start here + the Double Yields from NW fits more with a widely early expanding civ. The Celts should do warmongering with the Pict Warrior... I could see the double Natural Wonder being moved to the Shoshone (and the free tiles toned down there...). But we do need a theme.
Religion is fine, but it is lacking a bit on its own. The Celts should definitely be wide (no really big cities). Looking over the list, we could use a Religion + City States civ, can't we? That's not necessarily wide though. I'd rather see them as a bit of religious warmongerer: My try:
UA: Druidic Lore (Faith from Vegetation, Forests give a healing bonus to all Celtic Units)
UU: Pictish Warrior (Spear with faith-per-kill and foreign land bonus = rush)
UB: Abbey (1. Buyable with Faith - from the start -, adds 1 of every yield (except tourism) = something to burn through all that faith, the bonus can be adapted of coures), or else: Earlier Opera House? UI buildable next to bonus ressources adding 1 food, 1 production and 2 gold?)
@Thal Can you add to the Opening Post the start biases and the avoids as well, might be worth for the discussion of the civs. I have seen it argued for example that a Tundra start is a bonus (no civs to the North/South) as well, but that might not necessarily be true for a warmongering Sweden (=less targets...)
Germany: @Grimlin, Willkommen, du hast gute Ideen, aber falsch begonnen (Good Ideas, but you started the wrong way). Rather than proposing single UU's, first set a theme for the civ. For the Germany of the OP this is warmongerer from the start who can "ignore" the World Congress and has a late boost. Conquest often means not having many CS friends which equals few votes in the Congress which means Resolutions contrary to your interests get passed. Germany should turn the tide here. (And @Ahriman, the Diplomatic Genius of the Germans does refer to the unification through Prussia which required lots of it, even though it did bring Prussia to the brink of defeat in the 18th century (read up on Old Fritz f.e.). But it can also refer to the current situation where the Germans became the "Kings of Europe" even though they didn't really want it (this time
). And then there's the Berlin Conference of 188something on Africa. Metternich was Austrian, but we know that distinction is a bit fuzzy as well ) Shall I go on?I like that theme and I don't want to go back to a Engineering theme. That one can become quite bland (I haven't played Babylon once because of that). I could see the "Elite Unit"-UA get passed on to Sweden (I don't like the farm UA), but it does fit Germany. I feel we just need to find a good way to translate that "can ignore the World Congress" to a Unique (Building)
Arabia: See, we forgot the theme in the discussion above. I agree that a Tourism bonus isn't the best, why don't we have a religion+money civ after all? The Desert bonus may be situational, but it can be quite strong. I don't think focusing it on Land Trade is a good idea (a) it's not historical, b) it's more flexible the other way and c) it isn't a particular enticing way of playing the game, such as Polynesian Exploration is...
UA: Trade Routes (only them) treat desert as roads (= increased range through desert) + Desert Movement for Units (to protect them in the desert) + religion spreads through all trade routes
UB: Madrassa or Bazaar: Faith (or Science for the Madrasa?) per trade route to this city
UU: Camel Archer stays
Fixed the "no religion bonus", but didn't make it particularly about gold
One problem though, we changed Arabia from a wide civ in GEM to a Tall one (contained to the deserts?). Or is that a problem?
The thing with the "desert acts as roads for trade routes" is that is that it increases the range, but not in a radius, but selectively... I think the extra range primarily gives more cities = better choice for a good route. In the early game, that's mostly too unsafe though. The extra gold should be minuscule for Arabia here though, no?
America: What people seem to miss with the Pioneer is that it is needed with the UA. If your settler moves faster than the warrior or archer accompanying it, the extra speed is for naught. But then again, I do not protect them directly as much as in civ4 since add sight and 1 Upt often means they're safe already.
On the other hand, does America really need another boost. Fast Workers does mean they can move onto rough terrain and start working right now, right? So that's good, extra sight is undervalued, we already know that. 1 happiness per city is strong as well. And the Space Factory can be a real killer, we know for experience. I'm okay if America gets a "dud" UU...
The civ seems solidly designed to me, even though the extra worker working speed proposed above might be a good replacement for the passive happiness (=faster linked up luxuries). But it isn't as flexible as the happiness (settle where YOU want).
Celts: See the Opening Post. Thal asks us for ideas here especially!
I felt the forest-faith bonus was a bit forced from the start here + the Double Yields from NW fits more with a widely early expanding civ. The Celts should do warmongering with the Pict Warrior... I could see the double Natural Wonder being moved to the Shoshone (and the free tiles toned down there...). But we do need a theme.
Religion is fine, but it is lacking a bit on its own. The Celts should definitely be wide (no really big cities). Looking over the list, we could use a Religion + City States civ, can't we? That's not necessarily wide though. I'd rather see them as a bit of religious warmongerer: My try:
UA: Druidic Lore (Faith from Vegetation, Forests give a healing bonus to all Celtic Units)
UU: Pictish Warrior (Spear with faith-per-kill and foreign land bonus = rush)
UB: Abbey (1. Buyable with Faith - from the start -, adds 1 of every yield (except tourism) = something to burn through all that faith, the bonus can be adapted of coures), or else: Earlier Opera House? UI buildable next to bonus ressources adding 1 food, 1 production and 2 gold?)
@Thal Can you add to the Opening Post the start biases and the avoids as well, might be worth for the discussion of the civs. I have seen it argued for example that a Tundra start is a bonus (no civs to the North/South) as well, but that might not necessarily be true for a warmongering Sweden (=less targets...
)I'd rather the US just not have a UU. Other than aircraft carriers and special operations troops/spy planes, Americans are mostly known for building a huge mobile army when needed with a powerful economy transferred to building munitions, rather than being particularly great at any one kind of warfare (maybe air power, although there again, sheer numbers helped). None of those translates to a UU effect that would be noticed in the combat universe of Civ5.
Pioneers to me are already put into place by giving a passive +1 move and sight to civilian units. It isn't necessary to have the special unit on top of that. I don't see what ITC or retreat adds there as you have extra sight to avoid barbarians already and ITC doesn't matter if you can move 3 to avoid wandering blindly into something over the next hill. I already find that it is rarely necessary to guard settlers, or that it is easy enough to deploy a pre-archer garrison there to clear the way if it is.
We could move the national happiness bonus per city from the UA to an early building (say on the old pioneer fort instead of extra growth?) and make their workers both faster and more efficient as part of the UA as needed to be a super civ for civilian units generally, and effectively reserve some of the upkeep cost of armies for armies as a result. This doesn't add any new bonuses (worker rate speed only), and re-arranges the ones we have out there without tossing in a dud UU that adds nothing.
Gold per city with specialists (like the liberty production bonus) was also an interesting bonus for them from before but I don't see a particular need to bring it back.
Arabia: Agreed the tourism bonus doesn't make much sense. Leave that as a potential belief effect maybe or as applied to holy cities more generally to generate some tourism/culture benefits. Bonus faith/science per route could work although such a bonus would mostly only apply to a couple of cities while if the building is a market or library replacement, it's probably worth building in most cities so the effect would be wasted.
Celts: Forest healing is a nice touch.
A faith burner makes the most sense, to convert faith to other things. Does this mean food, happiness, production, science, culture, and faith as a yield?
Double yields from NW should probably be an ideological tenet rather than a UA (the one that adds tourism to them should also increase them generally). It's pretty niche at best. It can change the way you expand, which cities you would found, but I never found it that likely that I would ignore a city site with Krakatoa or whatever around as it was. They're pretty useful already early on.
The "Ignore WC" for Germany effect would probably work better if it is tied to military power somehow rather than by the building of buildings in many cities.
Pioneers to me are already put into place by giving a passive +1 move and sight to civilian units. It isn't necessary to have the special unit on top of that. I don't see what ITC or retreat adds there as you have extra sight to avoid barbarians already and ITC doesn't matter if you can move 3 to avoid wandering blindly into something over the next hill. I already find that it is rarely necessary to guard settlers, or that it is easy enough to deploy a pre-archer garrison there to clear the way if it is.
We could move the national happiness bonus per city from the UA to an early building (say on the old pioneer fort instead of extra growth?) and make their workers both faster and more efficient as part of the UA as needed to be a super civ for civilian units generally, and effectively reserve some of the upkeep cost of armies for armies as a result. This doesn't add any new bonuses (worker rate speed only), and re-arranges the ones we have out there without tossing in a dud UU that adds nothing.
Gold per city with specialists (like the liberty production bonus) was also an interesting bonus for them from before but I don't see a particular need to bring it back.
Arabia: Agreed the tourism bonus doesn't make much sense. Leave that as a potential belief effect maybe or as applied to holy cities more generally to generate some tourism/culture benefits. Bonus faith/science per route could work although such a bonus would mostly only apply to a couple of cities while if the building is a market or library replacement, it's probably worth building in most cities so the effect would be wasted.
Celts: Forest healing is a nice touch.
A faith burner makes the most sense, to convert faith to other things. Does this mean food, happiness, production, science, culture, and faith as a yield?
Double yields from NW should probably be an ideological tenet rather than a UA (the one that adds tourism to them should also increase them generally). It's pretty niche at best. It can change the way you expand, which cities you would found, but I never found it that likely that I would ignore a city site with Krakatoa or whatever around as it was. They're pretty useful already early on.
The "Ignore WC" for Germany effect would probably work better if it is tied to military power somehow rather than by the building of buildings in many cities.
Ahriman
Tyrant
....but also of a powerful military, and big guns.
Are you really arguing that Germany has throughout history had equivalent international influence to France? To France in the 1890s, sure; France is waning and Germany is rising. But for the 18th and early 19th centuries there isn't really much contest.
But that's really all that Venice was, so it's fine for Venice to focus on that. Whereas Germany was much, much more than the Hanseatic League.
Well drilled soldiers are rather a thing, as is leadership quality. The ww2 German war machine is more than propaganda, and the Prussians developed superior artillery by the franco-prussian war. So this sounds a bit like "Except for the aqueducts, sanitation, medicine, the roads, baths and public order ... what have the Romans ever done for us?"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExWfh6sGyso
* * *
But the problem is: that isn't how a player would use such an ability. If I get a big World Congress advantage, I'm not going to use it to compensate for not having CS friends, I'm going to add CS friends to the bonus and have a much easier job of snagging the diplomatic victory.
Which is thoroughly out of flavor for Germany.
None of which is really the sort of thing modeled by the World Congress mechanic.
Not really, when we have Austria as a separate faction. Austria is already modeled as a diplomatic faction, brokering unifying alliances in Europe; that's what their UA does. We already have that in the game. Germany should be different.
But an engineering theme has much stronger flavor than a diplomatic theme. If anyone would be getting diplomatic benefits it would surely be England.
If one were ask, out of the blue, what is the defining feature of German history and civilization, I don't think anyone would say "good diplomats".
That's weaker than +50% range. I'd rather have the range bonus.
Plus it's not clear that "treats deserts as roads for trade routes only" is a thing we can do in the engine.
I don't think this works, because as the human player you can't really control the trade routes *to* a city, except your own, which means using your caravans just for domestic trade, which isnt' really very flavorful.
But extra speed on a settler is very weak anyway. At best it buys you a handful of turns earlier founding. I don't understand what was wrong with the GEM design, which had the spaceship bonus, the pioneer fort, and the extra happiness.
Do we? It's easy enough to just get a sight promotion on a single unit. Sight promotion on every unit doesn't stack.
I still haven't thought of anything good for Celts. The problem is that they're wiped out so soon, historically speaking, that they don't really have much historic flavor to build on.
A Highlander UU might be more flavorful than Pictish warrior - maybe a longsword that doesn't require iron and gets a hill bonus?
Dolmen as a monument UB, that gives 3 culture rather than 2?
mitsho
Deity
@mystikx21
America: Sure, my argument was that the Pioneer was allowed to be weak since the rest is strong. Focusing on workers + civilian movement and putting the happiness on a building seems fine.
Celts: Now that you list them, the yields might be too many for the abbey, though I forgot that happiness is a yield. That one not of course. The unique thing of the abbeay is that it can be bought it with faith, the effect is secondary
Sure, but it's an approximation. Nothing is ever a modeled perfectly.
flavour is something very subjective. "Engineering" = Great Engineers in game terms mostly means more wonders... Also, if you go back to page 1 and Thal's points, Engineering feels to me like a straightforward boost, not something interactive (the old Scientist/Engineer swap would be it to a degree), but I personally feel a World Congress unique more flavourful since there are less (=none) of them.
And please can you tell me why you feel England should get a diplomatic bonus? The only thing I can think of is this English sketch about how Britain only ever agrees to work together with Europe to slow it down from the inside... I really can't see it, sorry?
Apart from that, I feel that we should keep historical discussion to a minimum or bring it over to the World History forum.
That's not intended of course, but there may be another way to achieve that. What about a Victory Column National Wonder that grants 1 delegate per conquered City State/Capital? Just suggesting stuff here...
On the other hand, it might be good to offer variety of gameplay and allow Germany to go for Diplo Victory...
Don't the Iroquois have it for forests? And about the range, so make the UB stronger, but I just don't like restricting them to Land Routes.
America: Sure, my argument was that the Pioneer was allowed to be weak since the rest is strong. Focusing on workers + civilian movement and putting the happiness on a building seems fine.
Celts: Now that you list them, the yields might be too many for the abbey, though I forgot that happiness is a yield. That one not of course. The unique thing of the abbeay is that it can be bought it with faith, the effect is secondary
Sure, but it's an approximation. Nothing is ever a modeled perfectly.
flavour is something very subjective. "Engineering" = Great Engineers in game terms mostly means more wonders... Also, if you go back to page 1 and Thal's points, Engineering feels to me like a straightforward boost, not something interactive (the old Scientist/Engineer swap would be it to a degree), but I personally feel a World Congress unique more flavourful since there are less (=none) of them.
And please can you tell me why you feel England should get a diplomatic bonus? The only thing I can think of is this English sketch about how Britain only ever agrees to work together with Europe to slow it down from the inside... I really can't see it, sorry?
Apart from that, I feel that we should keep historical discussion to a minimum or bring it over to the World History forum.
That's not intended of course, but there may be another way to achieve that. What about a Victory Column National Wonder that grants 1 delegate per conquered City State/Capital? Just suggesting stuff here...
On the other hand, it might be good to offer variety of gameplay and allow Germany to go for Diplo Victory...
Don't the Iroquois have it for forests? And about the range, so make the UB stronger, but I just don't like restricting them to Land Routes.
I don't think this works, because as the human player you can't really control the trade routes *to* a city, except your own, which means using your caravans just for domestic trade, which isnt' really very flavorful.[/quote
Sorry I didn't put from as well
Thal just wants it the other way around. To be frank, I think both are fine...
No comment on the healing + "faith buyable building" idea? I'd rather have the Dolmen as a UI of some sort. We don't have a faith UI as of now, do we? And yes on the Highlander instead of Pictish, but this is for me more of a question on "when" the civ should shine gameplay-wise, ancient or medieval era.
This point doesn't get you very far since it entirely depends on who you ask. I wouldn't say the defining feature of Austrian history is "good diplomats" either.
The point of my post was to make Germany not a warmonger. Since Germany is a warmonger in every single game on the planet basically. I consider it boring, bland, shallow and on top inaccurate.
So I took a look at history and came up with another idea. The basic motif would be be something of a middle ground between tall and wide. More cities than your Ethiopia or India but less then say America.
Pioneers: If we have something unique in the game, it should either do something we already would want to do for that civ better (for flavor reasons), or it should allow us to do something unique (again for flavor reasons). Any UU settler is going to accomplish neither of those things. Faster workers would, as would faster missionaries, faster work on improvements, etc. I accept that sight and movement bonuses are useful, and don't object to them, but I don't see how they lead to the need for a different kind of settler so much as they already create one. That's more where I am coming from. It doesn't strike me as a compelling change but rather a dud change. Almost a nerf really since it doesn't get any other bonus (the NASA tech bonus is quite powerful of course, but comes late game. One clarification question I have is whether it interacts with aluminum limits when building research labs with the free spaceship factory or if it is spaceship factories doing the instant tech and maybe you can get them sooner?). Shifting around the bonuses to consolidate them just makes more sense to me. I haven't seen a convincing argument in favor of the change.
Celts: I was curious if listing them would help. Happiness I agree isn't a good idea as a yield. That sounds okay for now, at least more interesting than the Opera House UB. We could tweak the yields around to make it balanced or more focused as desired. The key thing was the faith-burn. A faith UI is also interesting, but they kind of already have that with forests.
Arabs: Forests are a "feature", so it's probably easier to code than desert, which is a "terrain". But it doesn't seem insurmountable a change really (units already can get them easily enough). I'd agree it is weaker than just extra range on land routes though. I also agree there's little reason to make a strong caravans push for them either other than that if somebody should have better land routes of any kind, they're a better fit than most.
Celts: I was curious if listing them would help
. Happiness I agree isn't a good idea as a yield. That sounds okay for now, at least more interesting than the Opera House UB. We could tweak the yields around to make it balanced or more focused as desired. The key thing was the faith-burn. A faith UI is also interesting, but they kind of already have that with forests. Arabs: Forests are a "feature", so it's probably easier to code than desert, which is a "terrain". But it doesn't seem insurmountable a change really (units already can get them easily enough). I'd agree it is weaker than just extra range on land routes though. I also agree there's little reason to make a strong caravans push for them either other than that if somebody should have better land routes of any kind, they're a better fit than most.
Ahriman
Tyrant
I'm totally fine for an engineering boost to be about something other than great engineers or engineering specialists. I'm just saying it makes more sense as something to build around.
a) I don't, I think England is fine with naval and industrial bonuses (though I might go back to the movement bonus rather than the experience bonus, so their embarked units move faster). I'm saying it would make more sense for England than it would for any other faction, because:
b) Britain was the 19th century superpower of international affairs. It had more influence on World Congress type things like settling territorial disputes, ending the slave trade, setting up colonial spheres of influence than any other great power.
I would be much more open to something like this. Though I don't think a National Wonder works, it would need to be a UA, or just stick the ability on the Palace somehow.
Diplo-victory through conquest is much more flavorful and interestingly different than just making it cheaper to buy the victory.
No. For the Iroquois, they count as roads for unit movement too and for domestic trade routes. Which is vastly more powerful than just for international trade route distance.
I don't mind if Arab trade bonuses work for sea trade routes too, there were plenty of Arab sea traders.
Healing doesn't really work for me in flavor terms, druids don't actually have magical powers, and it doesn't sound like something the AI would understand.
For a faith buyable building, do you mean some totally new building? Can we even do that?
Or a UB? I guess I still don't see what it is we're trying to model.
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