Leaders: BNW Adaptation

[mystikx21]

It shouldn't be too hard to create a distinct building class (we did it for new wonders). Maybe give the Celts a "belief" that nobody else can get to lock it out. Not sure if that interacts with the existing religion systems or not.

I'm not entirely sure what it models, but it works well with generating some extra faith from kills and extra from forests to burn some of it on something other than just more faith.

 

[void_genesis]

Focussing on the celts:

A later UB could add a further yield improvement to unimproved forests. This would enhance the early faith on forests effect and make it scale later in the game. The ability for workers to create forests would be good for gameplay, maybe not so realistic though.

The faith on kills effect from only the UU seems a bit narrow- do people find it strong enough to be attractive? Would adding this to all units (like the Aztec culture on kills) be overpowered?

I would imagine the wider variety of GP to spend faith on means there is less dire need to have an extra faith cost UB. There are plenty of synergistic beliefs, like purchasing units with faith.

 

[mitsho]

It models the Hiberno-Scottish-mission and the place Gaelic Monasteries take in it. Monasteries in medieval Europe often were the center of a community and thus had something to do with nearly anything. Since monastery is already a normal belief, abbey seemed to be the next best term I could think of Gameplay-wise I like the idea of something that can't be built by production. It does lock them into a religious game, but then they have two faith-generating other uniques.

As for druidic lore + healing, never heard of:

That might be hard to code, but it's certainly interesting AND it related to Druids more than double yield from Natural Wonders

As for Germany, @Grimlin, Yeah, I might've been a bit too harsh there sorry. German Confederalism (btw. here the English and German terms switch: Federalism in English means centralised, in Germand, Föderalismus means decentralized ), is certainly something distinct (but then that's true for so many other things like "Dichter und Denker" or ....). It's hard to model that as your proposals show, neither of them are particularly interactive or change the way one plays. Btw., the elite units proposed wouldn't necessarily be for warmongering. They might also be a cheaper defense (free units, less needed).

@Ahriman The Iroquois were changed: "Caravans move along Forest and Jungle as if they were Roads". True though I forgot about feature and terrain...

I won't comment on historical discussion further, but for Germany, another UA needs to move the elite UA to another civ (its existence is non-negotionable ). I can see Sweden, which then would clear the way for another UA. Did you propose a "engineering"-themed distinct UA btw.?

 

[void_genesis]

The nature worship theme is flavorful for the celts (and there isn't much else to go on since they petered out early on in history)

Extra yields from natural wonders has been shown to be too hit and miss to make this balanced other than an optional faith/pantheon for any civs who happen to get a few of them in reach.

Would some extra reward for discovering natural wonders be more interesting though? Maybe x% extra strength for troops (or some other incremental bonus to anything) per natural wonder discovered (the % can be scaled to map size to keep it balanced). That way the AI will stumble on the bonus through normal exploration, and the player has an extra incentive to explore.

 

[void_genesis]

How about tying the ideas together? Units heal +x points per turn when healing for every natural wonder discovered.(scale x to the map size and number of natural wonders, or set a maximum cap)

 

[mitsho]

I don't feel a exploration theme works well for the Celts. It's more of a speciality of Polynesia and to some degree Portugal. Also, you run into the same problem as with Byzantium, a bonus for something you'd do anyways or probably, but no bonus how to get there.

I was going for a Religion + Warfare (the early uu) + Generic wide (flat bonus on ub) theme. I'd say that fits them quite well, settle a few cities more in appropriate foresty locations, go attack a civ/city states with your UU for maximum faith, then develop them with your ub. It's not rocket science or very special either, I give you that. But it's coherent.

 

[GenjiKhan]

Can some of the themes for certain civs be changed? Here what I proposed for certain civs:

America: Early expansionist and Late game tourism powerhouse;

Brazil: Mid game cultural powerhouse and late game tourism powerhouse;

Byzantinum: Greater bonus from religion;

Celts: Faster acquisition and faster improvement of religion;

England: Economic and maritime powerhouse at mid game;

Huns: Early game conquerors;

India: Greater bonus from having more than one religion;

Indonesia: Island settlements;

Sweden: Enhanced bonus from diplomacy;

 

[Ahriman]

As for druidic lore + healing, never heard of:

Like I said, Druidic magic isn't real. I'm against adding fantasy abilities. Hence, no growing forests, no somehow getting "real" yields from unimproved forests. The forest ability doesn't need to scale, it's for the early game.

The Abbey sounds possible, I do like the idea of something to burn that bonus faith on.
I'd forgotten about the mission, I think you posted that a year or so back, it's an interesting idea.

@Ahriman The Iroquois were changed: "Caravans move along Forest and Jungle as if they were Roads".

Huh, I hadn't noticed, thanks. We should probably change that back. That is a terrible ability.
I guess the issue is that "within your cultural borders" is gone?

but for Germany, another UA needs to move the elite UA to another civ (its existence is non-negotionable

I don't understand what you're saying here. If you're talking about the military maintenance reduction, Zulus have something similar, and it could move to Songhai, who has never had a good ability.

Did you propose a "engineering"-themed distinct UA btw.?

Free great engineer at metal working, +25% production of great engineers, +2 production on manufacturies.

There are many other ways such a themed UA could go, however.

[Some examples: greater benefit from railroads. Faster construction of all industry buildings. Higher yields from engineer specialists.]

Extra yields from natural wonders has been shown to be too hit and miss to make this balanced other than an optional faith/pantheon for any civs who happen to get a few of them in reach.

Agreed.

The faith on kills effect from only the UU seems a bit narrow- do people find it strong enough to be attractive? Would adding this to all units (like the Aztec culture on kills) be overpowered?

I'd be ok with trying it as a UA, or at least having it done by a promotion that stayed upon upgrade.

I don't feel a exploration theme works well for the Celts. It's more of a speciality of Polynesia and to some degree Portugal.

Agreed. Polynesia may also need some attention, I've never played them, but they look a bit weak on paper.

I was going for a Religion + Warfare (the early uu) + Generic wide (flat bonus on ub) theme. I'd say that fits them quite well, settle a few cities more in appropriate foresty locations, go attack a civ/city states with your UU for maximum faith, then develop them with your ub. It's not rocket science or very special either, I give you that. But it's coherent.

Agree with all this.

America: Early expansionist and Late game tourism powerhouse;

Brazil is the late-game tourism powerhouse, and to some extent France, I don't think we want that for the US, the space race bonus makes more sense as uniquely American.

Brazil: Mid game cultural powerhouse and late game tourism powerhouse;
Byzantinum: Greater bonus from religion;
Huns: Early game conquerors;[
Indonesia: Island settlements;

They kinda are this already.

India: Greater bonus from having more than one religion;

I don't really think the religion mechanic supports this.

 

[void_genesis]

Just a quick note on Assyria after playing a game with them. The UA of stealing a tech on conquest is far too situational. You have to be behind the enemy in tech, which is OK if you are neglecting your beakers but useless otherwise.

Would it be possible to get a free great person on city conquest instead? (select from a shrinking list like the Maya free GP per era) or at least a scaled number of instant beakers? The GP would be more interesting for gameplay since you have subsequent choices over how to use them. It is also historic since the Assyrians moved talented people captured in conquest all over their civilisation for their own purposes.

 

[Hawawaa]

Assyria early game steals tech, come renaissance steals random great people.

 

[Hawawaa]

England's theme "1st Great Empire" or "Great Empire"

Indonesia's theme "Master of Spices"

Sweden's theme "People's Welfare"

 

[mystikx21]

Agreed the tech stealing isn't that great... it does play well with early-ish attacks, when even a tech leader doesn't have the same techs as rivals. But it stops being all that impressive after this short advantage. A scaled amount of research (based on city size/era) would be more potent.

I would second at least making the Picts/Highlanders promotion sticky. If not making it more general.

Agreed US tourism bonus doesn't make much sense. There is some realism for the hegemonic period post ww2 or early enlightenment era influence on other nation states, but this isn't really the best way to have this mechanic operate in game. Space race is unique and flavorful instead.

Polynesia should have WC advantages by exploring faster and sooner now. I already found that useful for rapid colonies to strategic islands (coal in GEM) as you can stake those out as soon as you see them bit before astronomy. Those are both useful I should think.

I think Mitsho is talking about the prototype elites and not cheaper upkeep. I don't think elite prototypes makes sense for another civ actually to use. The cheap upkeep one is fine on Shaka I think.

 

[ExpiredReign]

1) About the posts on Conquest civs constantly going at the war front, I wonder if it is possible to make them go warmongering only during the age their UU is available, +1 or 2 eras.

eg. Rome gets the Legion in the Classical era. Make them go to war more in the Ancient, Classical & Medieval eras.
Japan gets the Samurai in the Medieval so the fight in Classical, Medieval & Renaissance eras.

After that they settle down somewhat.

Probably can't be done.

With regards the Celts. As it is the existing UA seems to reflect the Druidic magic thing which is just stupid.
Historically speaking they are more known for the ousting of Rome from their territory.

Their UA should more reflect that aspect of their life.

This reference from http://www.livescience.com/37061-boudicca.html seems interesting.

The Iceni, at the time of the Roman invasion, were a wealthy people (as evidenced by hoards of precious metals that have been found) whose leaders had been minting coins for nearly a century. Some of the earliest Iceni coins show an image of what Miranda Aldhouse-Green, a Cardiff University professor, calls a “snapping wolf,” a choice that may offer an insight into the psyche of these people.

The “wolf is both a wild creature, a potential enemy to humans, and also lives and hunts in packs; it therefore may have acted as a symbol of independent solidarity,” she writes in her book, "Boudica Britannia: Rebel, War-Leader and Queen" (Pearson Education, 2006).

So picking up on the "wolf" theme, maybe they could gain a bonus when 2 or more are in adjacent tiles, or gain a forest bonus.

There are also references to the women and children being the last line of defense.
Perhaps units could spawn around attacked cities or (perhaps harder to code) there is a chance the unit will duplicate when attacked and mortally wounded.

 

[void_genesis]

If you want to focus on the celtic resistance against roman invasion, perhaps we could transfer Ethiopia's old combat bonus against civs with more cities idea to them, but maybe based on another metric for comparison. If fine tuned properly the celts could be an interesting civ for upsetting our neighbors (through over-expansion, or just plain small/peaceful for cultural) so they attack us and then using the faith from kills UA to feed our religion.

 

[xInVicTuSx]

Played as Rome last night and again was feeling underwhelmed by the Legion. I guess I just don't like ancient UUs unless they're resource free (excepting the Battering Ram of course). By the time I was ready to move out and then got to my nearest neighbor, longswordsmen were available. The time frame for invasion is just so small in a normal speed game. The Samurai has suffered from this as well as the Musketman is available right after Steel and Physics, which are both available from Metal Casting.

I also am not a fan of the road building thing. It just seems like a somewhat convenient little aside rather than something actually useful. I never have trouble building roads with workers and the only thing slowing me down is the maintenance cost, not any danger; plus, why am I wasting my legion's time building roads anyways? Now if they could build "Roman Roads" which workers could not build that were somehow better (more movement speed or less maintenance) THEN I would consider it good and take time to build roads with my legions.

And goodbye Ballista.. you are terrible and will not be missed. P.S. I hate you.

 

[ExpiredReign]

@xInVicTuSx

I feel your pain. I too hate having my UUs being obsolete before they can be properly used.

I believe Thal is toying with the idea of delayed obsolescence. It came up when I mentioned to him the Shoshone UU currently upgrades to Spearman at Bronze Working!

 

[mitsho]

With regards the Celts. As it is the existing UA seems to reflect the Druidic magic thing which is just stupid.
Historically speaking they are more known for the ousting of Rome from their territory.

Their UA should more reflect that aspect of their life.

This reference from http://www.livescience.com/37061-boudicca.html seems interesting.

So picking up on the "wolf" theme, maybe they could gain a bonus when 2 or more are in adjacent tiles, or gain a forest bonus.

There are also references to the women and children being the last line of defense.
Perhaps units could spawn around attacked cities or (perhaps harder to code) there is a chance the unit will duplicate when attacked and mortally wounded.

Like Bibracte, Alessia, Gergovia? No Celtic Tribe managed to withhold against Rome, Everything from Spain to Britain, Gaul to the East was conquered. So nope, they were not good at withstanding them. The Iceni are a small tribe you Anglo-Saxons constantly overestimate. There's a life outside of the Island, you know

Like I said, Druidic magic isn't real. I'm against adding fantasy abilities. Hence, no growing forests, no somehow getting "real" yields from unimproved forests. The forest ability doesn't need to scale, it's for the early game.

Agreed that it doesn't need to scale, and not sure it's about magic at all. That was just kind of a stab from me. The idea behind is that forests are sacred for the Druids, so they gain faith for having them. It could just as easily be a belief imho. Druids were the healers/wise person of their villages, so they do have some healing knowledge, probably less than the civilized Roman or Greek Doctors of the time, but hey, it's a game...

We can move the things around of course. Give the Forest bonus to a Monument UB (and let their first city start with it?) and model a UA around lower faith threshholds or somesuch.

Huh, I hadn't noticed, thanks. We should probably change that back. That is a terrible ability.
I guess the issue is that "within your cultural borders" is gone?

It's additional to their current abilites, doesn't replace anything... Need to play them first to see how exactly it works though...

Free great engineer at metal working, +25% production of great engineers, +2 production on manufacturies.

There are many other ways such a themed UA could go, however.

[Some examples: greater benefit from railroads. Faster construction of all industry buildings. Higher yields from engineer specialists.]

That's ... just a straight boost. Doesn't make you play differently at all... Also true for your other suggestions...

They could be the anti-Venice: Benefit from production, but are bad at using gold for buildings/units? (thus freeing it up for City States, and you got a CS-oriented ability) + a weak capital supported by better wide cities? But I'm fine with the current UA.

I'd be ok with trying it as a UA, or at least having it done by a promotion that stayed upon upgrade.

I guess it wasn't done to reduce the faith available to the Celts. It's fine with a faith-burner for me.

Agreed. Polynesia may also need some attention, I've never played them, but they look a bit weak on paper.

They are strong enough imho and now have good chances for hosting the World Congress, if they beeline for Printing Press. It's just that their AI is weak/neglects defense.

Agreed the tech stealing isn't that great... it does play well with early-ish attacks, when even a tech leader doesn't have the same techs as rivals. But it stops being all that impressive after this short advantage. A scaled amount of research (based on city size/era) would be more potent.

It's hit-or-miss. If you can't conquer, you can't utilize it. But they got a good UB aside from it. Does/Will it work on City States btw.? Need more time on them...

I think Mitsho is talking about the prototype elites and not cheaper upkeep. I don't think elite prototypes makes sense for another civ actually to use. The cheap upkeep one is fine on Shaka I think.

Yep, sorry if that wasn't clear. The Prototype UA for the Germans is something that Thal proposed and obviously wants to keep somewhere. So to change Germany's UA, you'd need another civ to take it on. (My proposal was Sweden and return to two UU's there, making it all about war and adding the UU's to the list of free units).

I believe Thal is toying with the idea of delayed obsolescence. It came up when I mentioned to him the Shoshone UU currently upgrades to Spearman at Bronze Working!

Yeah, but I feel that's a problem for the whole early game + melee ressource units especially.

 

[GenjiKhan]

Agreed US tourism bonus doesn't make much sense. There is some realism for the hegemonic period post ww2 or early enlightenment era influence on other nation states, but this isn't really the best way to have this mechanic operate in game. Space race is unique and flavorful instead.

The idea behind suggesting a theme based on tourism for US is because there are only 2 civilizations in the game whose theme is related to tourism(Brazil and France) . It wouldn't hurt that much to add a 3rd civ with that bonus and US is a viable choice for that . Another option is China,but I'm afraid it might not be feasible to give them extra resistance bonus against tourism of other civs .

 

[mystikx21]

The way I think of tourism is the Francophile effect of colonialism and great power acts. I don't think we need to mess with China at all. I don't think it makes sense on US. If it were to apply there it might work on a unique building (rather than a UA) but the space race seems much better as a fit.

Frankly the existing effect on France is a little underwhelming as it is.

 

[Ahriman]

. But it stops being all that impressive after this short advantage. A scaled amount of research (based on city size/era) would be more potent.

Agreed. It relies on having neighbors who haven't picked the same techs as you and are doing well.

I don't think elite prototypes makes sense for another civ actually to use.

Agreed. It doesn't really have good historic flavor.

If you want to focus on the celtic resistance against roman invasion, perhaps we could transfer Ethiopia's old combat bonus against civs with more cities idea to them, but maybe based on another metric for comparison.

But they should probably be a fairly military civ, so they should be the ones doing the conquering.

The idea behind is that forests are sacred for the Druids, so they gain faith for having them.

Faith from forests on the UA is fine; faith basically *is* belief in the supernatural, it's a social effect (the ability to influence your population) not a "hard" effect. It's healing from forests that I have a problem with.

It's additional to their current abilites, doesn't replace anything.

So forests within culture borders count as roads; forests outside culture borders count as roads for caravan distance only?

That's ... just a straight boost. Doesn't make you play differently at all.

Sure it does. It makes you focus on using your engineer specialist slots, and makes you more likely to settle them rather than just wonder-boosting.

Benefit from production, but are bad at using gold for buildings/units?

Bad at using gold seems like it might mess up the AI.