Leaders

[QuixotesGhost]

I feel that the perceived weakness of Washington's UA (in vanilla) is a casualty of larger game balance problems and has less to do with the UA itself. +1 sight isn't nearly as useful as it could be since AI's don't know how to wage war properly. If the war AI was improved and war became more balanced and nuanced then +1 sight would be a powerful war-time ability. When the AI is going to throw up thier ranged units up front and generally behave like idiots - it loses its usefulness.

The other aspect of Manifest Destiny, reduced land-buy, faces problems because land-buy is most useful for peaceful rexxing and quick expansion. You can quickly buy productive tiles in new expansions to get them running as fast as possible. The problem is that peaceful rexxing is an underpowered strat for a couple reasons, the primary one being that it makes the AI much more likely to declare war on you at a point when you've echewed military prowress in favor of settlers and workers. If peaceful expansion is going to land you in war anyways - if you are going to need a capable military - then why not just take cities instead of settling them? Additionally land-buy suffers from the current balance problem of annexed vs. puppet states, since you cannot land-buy in puppets. If the costs and rewards of annexing were better balanced against one another a bonus to land-buy would become more useful.

Additionally, I'm curious as to why you feel increasing Washington's bonus to land-buy would be overpowered? I feel that - in the current state of the game - it should be a -33% discount. Yes - it combos with Monarchy for 83% land-buy, true, but my question is: how can 83% land-buy be abused?

Monarchy is 4 policies in, One for the Tradition pick, and then the two prerequisites. Additionally as I mentioned, land-buy is best for rexxing and Tradition is meant for small empires - (though Liberty is a bit weak for its intended purpose). If you are rexxing then 4 policies is a LOT, and probably won't see you getting it until the initial expansion is over. IF you aren't rexxing then land-buy becomes less useful.

So, my question is, how do you feel -83% land-buy could be abused (but only after a policy pick at the bottom of Tradition)?

 

[Thalassicus]

Odd, I thought I'd replied here a while back. Sorry!

@teejing
I was concerned doing this might change things too much for civs which rely on the promotions of their unique units. For example, Minutemen and Janissaries cannot be upgraded to, are useful for only a very brief timeperiod, and are obsoleted quickly by Riflemen. If their promotions didn't carry over, even with a significant buff it'd still be an overall nerf to the civ.


@QuixotesGhost
I agree about game issues and Washington's UA, which is why I focused on the UU's. I'm actually not sure how 15-20% for land-buy could be overpowered. However, from experience modding games in the past I've found that situations where X and Y and Z can be combined to approaching-0-cost situations, someone out there usually can find an exploit, so my instinct was to avoid the situation and focus on the weak UU's. You or I might not be able to think of an exploit, but there's thousands of creative gamers out there.

 

[Thalassicus]

Based on the results of this poll and others, plus discussions and playtesting, I think I'm going to change Wu Zetian's GGs to 35% (from 45%) in the next version, and reduce the gold of paper makers to 3 (from 4). I think every conversation I've seen says the leader is overpowered, and she does feel more powerful than most other civs in the games I played.

I'm going to leave Greece as-is due to the changes I made in the Units mod: 14 to 12 of Companion Cavalry, and adjustment of open/rough defense ratio to 160% (from 190%).

Any opinions on this subject before I add these changes?


Some other low-ranked civs in the poll are...

Elizabeth - England
Buffed indirectly in Units mod (longbowmen and ships better). What if I buffed Longbowmen's defense strength slightly though, just to reduce their situational nature of archipelago-only maps? Or I could give it an even larger buff and reduce the UA slightly. My reasoning is that a civ only effective on archipelago maps, and more effective than any other civ on those maps, creates a choice that is no choice at all.

Ramkamhaeng - Siam
UB got an indirect buff in the Policies mod (Humanism, their Wat is a Univeristy-replacement).

Askia - Songhai
I think Askia is alright where he is; from the games I played the UA and UU's are remarkably powerful.

Germany, India, Japan, Ottomans
I could give these civs small buffs to the Panzer, Mughal Fort, Zero Fighter, Ottoman UA.

One problem is most traits of the Ottomans were basically given to the "Arabia" civilization, bonuses to trade and merchants. So I've been thinking...

Suleiman was well-known for being a poet and patron of the arts, and promoted changes to law and administrative practices. The Ottomans in general were known to have good administrative policy, even including tolerance and inclusion of ethnic groups like Christians and Jews into the bureaucracy of what was predominantly a Muslim nation. In metropolitan areas artisans and merchants were also strongly supported. So perhaps a bonus to Great Person generation might fit? Somewhat like the old Philosophical trait. This is a trait I could implement with the currently available tools.

Lawmaker
+50% Great Person production.

I could slightly reduce the potency of Janissaries to compensate, possibly changing it so they heal 2hp on victory instead of 10hp.

Suleiman was also a famous conqueror, I could make it +25% and +25% experience gain, or just experience gain alone, like the old Charismatic trait.

 

[Perkus]

Just a thought on Ottoman - "Lawmaker" and "tolerance and inclusion of ethnic groups" sounds like somebody who should be better at annexing foreign cities. Some sort of reduced penalty for happiness of occupied cities? Cheaper, faster Courthouse, maybe?

 

[Thalassicus]

That would be great to do eventually, but we can't do that as a UA with the tools we have now. The options for traits are rather limited. There's the existing traits, and a few unused ones like xp, , and global modifiers.

 

[Perkus]

Ok, I didn't know it was so limited.

 

[juances19]

bug- cheking the xml i found this line at the end: TXT_KETXT_KEY_UNIT_HELP_PANZERY_UNIT_HELP_ZERO

I also did a spanish translation for this

Spoiler :

  <Language_ES_ES>
 		<Update>
			<Where Tag="TXT_KEY_TRAIT_INGENIOUS" />
			<Set Text="Recibe un Gran científico gratis al descubrir Escritura..  Consigue Grandes científicos un 66% más rápido." />
		</Update>
		<Update>
			<Where Tag="TXT_KEY_BUILDING_BAZAAR_HELP" />
			<Set Text="Proporciona uno más de cada recurso de lujo mejorado que haya cerca de esta ciudad, y 1 slot extra de [ICON_CITIZEN] Especialista Mercader." />
		</Update>
		<Update>
			<Where Tag="TXT_KEY_TRAIT_LAND_TRADE_GOLD" />
			<Set Text="+2 de Oro [ICON_GOLD] por cada ruta comercial [ICON_CONNECTED], y se produce el doble de Petróleo." />
		</Update>
		<Update>
			<Where Tag="TXT_KEY_BUILDING_LONGHOUSE_HELP" />
			<Set Text="+20% [ICON_PRODUCTION] a la producción al construir Edificios.[NEWLINE][NEWLINE]+1 de Producción [ICON_PRODUCTION] por cada casilla de Bosque o Jungla explotada." />
		</Update>
		<Row Tag="TXT_KEY_TRAIT_LAWMAKER_SHORT">
			<Text>Legislador</Text>
		</Row>
		<Row Tag="TXT_KEY_TRAIT_LAWMAKER">
			<Text>Los [ICON_GREAT_PEOPLE] Grandes Personajes se crean un +50% más rápido.</Text>
		</Row>
		<Update>
			<Where Tag="TXT_KEY_UNIT_OTTOMAN_JANISSARY_STRATEGY" />
			<Set Text="El Jenízaro es una unidad exclusiva otomana que sustituye al Mosquete. Recibe una importante bonificación al combate cuando ataca. Además, se cura automáticamente +2 de daño cuando destruye a una unidad. Esto puede conceder al ejército que lo lleve una ventaja aplastante contra una fuerza enemiga que esté a la defensiva." />
		</Update>
		<Update>
			<Where Tag="TXT_KEY_UNIT_HELP_B17" />
			<Set Text="Una unidad aérea que siembra la muerte sobre unidades terrestres y marítimas. Solo los estadounidenses pueden construirla. Esta unidad tiene posibilidades de burlar la intercepción, más rango y hace más daño a las ciudades que el Bombardero, al que sustituye." />
		</Update>
		<Update>
			<Where Tag="TXT_KEY_UNIT_HELP_ZERO" />
			<Set Text="Una unidad aérea pensada para controlar los cielos e interceptar a los aviones enemigos que se acerquen. Solo los japoneses pueden construirla. Esta unidad tiene más rango y una bonificación al luchar contra otros Cazas, a diferencia del Caza, al que sustituye." />
		</Update>
		<Update>
			<Where Tag="TXT_KEY_UNIT_HELP_PANZER" />
			<Set Text="Una unidad rápida y poderosa de la Era Industrial. Recibe una penalización al atacar ciudades y cuando defiende, pero es increíblemente eficaz en terreno abierto.[NEWLINE][NEWLINE]Solo los alemanes pueden construirlo. Esta unidad tiene más movimiento y rango de visión que el Tanque, al que sustituye." />
		</Update>

 </Language_ES_ES>

 

[Thalassicus]

Thank you for the translation juances19! I'll include an Español file in the next version.

 

[SureYouCan]

Hey great mod concept, about to install it and play it for the first time. Have a couple of questions though.

1. What is the woodsman promotion?
2. Isn't +50% GPP for Suleiman a little too much? Babylon had 100% on GS /only/ which you nerfed down to 66%. But now Suleiman gets +50% on everything?
3. Hiawatha is one of my favorite leaders in the game next to Washington. Does this change mean longhouses to no longer give +1 production on forest tiles? Or does he still get +1 production on forests AND 20% to buildings?

Also have to agree completely with keeping mohawk warriors needing a strategic resource. Right out of the box a mohawk fortified in forests is practically unbreakable. Throw a barracks in for drill 1 and you have a rifleman strength unit 3 techs into the game.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Thalassicus]

1. Woodsman allows normal movement speed in forests and jungle.

2. Neb also gets a free great scientist as soon as you research Writing, allowing powerful early slingshots. Suleiman's trait requires you to build buildings first to get any value out of it, and is strictly weaker than Neb's until you get non-Scientist specialist buildings (which come later).

3. Hiawatha's Longhouses now give the +1 on forests in addition to the normal effect of the Workshop they replace. So the Longhouse is a direct upgrade over workshops now, instead of a sidegrade. One reason for this is the Terrain Improvements balance adjustments increase lumbermills from 1 to 2. Longhouses used to increase forest production 50% (2→3), now it's only 33% (3→4), but it also gets the Workshop's +20% for buildings, making it less situational.

 

[frost_maze]

On the topic of Monetzuma's Jaguars, I'd like to point out that while you've nerfed the Janissaries, I believe you've accidentally nerfed the Jaguar as well, since they now only heal 2 damage instead of 10 whenever they defeat an enemy...

Actually, come to think of it, is it meant to be that? I'm not sure. Please do correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Louis XXIV]

Jags have always only healed 2

 

[frost_maze]

I am le wrong. I now stand corrected. Thank you.

I also never did mention how much your mods are making my games more enjoyable (all of them ). So I've mentioned it now.

 

[Tomice]

I was thinking about England and your quote:

"...a civ only effective on archipelago maps, and more effective than any other civ on those maps, creates a choice that is no choice at all."

In vanilla, the English navy is superior to any other in the world, and Liz seems to beeline naval techs and often had the great lighthouse in my games. Not sure if she cares about the SP that gives another naval movement.

So the effect is an extremely situational UA, but if the situation occurs, other civs are unable to compete with England (basically what you said).


My suggestion: Is it possible to reduce their movement bonus by 1 and replace it with more gold from coastal tiles? Sea trade with colonies was a huge part of British history AFAIK. This would buff Britain on all maps that have some bodies of water, while making them less OP on water-heavy maps (in my humble opinion).

 

[Perkus]

@Tomice
There is a specific list of special leader trait powers to choose from, and making extra gold from coastal tiles isn't one of them. I don't think new ones can be added at this time.

 

[Thalassicus]

There might be a workaround though. For example, by checking the civ of players and giving them a free "dummy" hidden social policy, you can essentially access all the policy attributes for traits.

Also, I'm gradually putting together a list of things to explore once we have c++ access.

 

[JanissaryRush]

For America I was going to suggest less culture needed to acquire new tiles, but realized squares would be free with that wonder which reduces it by 75%. What about getting the first tile right when you found a city?

 

[Thalassicus]

Oooo that's an interesting idea! So basically you're saying cities would start with 7 workable tiles instead of 6, the first border expansion free? That might be rather cool.

Reducing culture requirements to expand wouldn't be as unique, because Russia already has that trait (Kreposts). The wonder isn't a big issue because it only works for 1 city. Negative modifiers in V cap out at 90% reduction.

 

[Stalker0]

Did you make it so that longbow get the attack after moving INSTEAD of the +1 range or in addition to?

I'll say right now I consider longbows one of the strongest UUs in the game without any help, I don't really think they need more.

 

[Thalassicus]

Range? I didn't add range. In general, I buffed longbows because it's the only non-naval aspect of the English right now, so it's the only way to solve the problem of their situational nature (weak civ on non-archipelago). In an upcoming version I'm considering replacing the Ship of the Line with a unique factory, and reverting longbows to vanilla values.