Leaders

[Thalassicus]

I've got a rather significant new development testing version online at the bottom of the first post of the main thread here... I'm experimenting with redesigning the rather underwhelming unique ships and aircraft into UUs/UBs more useful (and historically significant) for the civs involved (US, UK, Japan). Give it a try if you have a chance, it'd be great to have feedback.

 

[Seek]

I've got a rather significant new development testing version online at the bottom of the first post of the main thread here... I'm experimenting with redesigning the rather underwhelming unique ships and aircraft into UUs/UBs more useful (and historically significant) for the civs involved (US, UK, Japan). Give it a try if you have a chance, it'd be great to have feedback.

I'm in the middle of a game right now, can you give us a hint?

 

[Thalassicus]

Sure! I wrote out the details at the link.

I'm testing out a new mod, Balance - Leader Uniques. It's designed to go with the Balance - Leaders mod, but I'm including it separately for now.

I strongly feel unique air and naval units in the Civ series are underwhelming. These units have always felt like support, not the primary force of an army. They cannot capture cities, don't benefit from things like terrain bonuses or great generals, have limited promotion capability, no buildings to increase their base experience (in V), and so on. In particular, unique aircraft are so late they aren't nearly as significant as an early ground unit like the Legion.

For these reasons, I've replaced the Zero, B17, and Ship of the Line with UUs/UBs that also have important historical significance:

• The UK's role as epicenter of the Industrial Revolution was world-changing but not portrayed at all in Civ. Therefore, I gave the UK the Manufacturing Plant, a unique Factory available earlier (Scientific Method) at half the cost.
• A significant aspect of US history was rapid westward European expansion and settling of the continent. This massive internal migration is relatively unique among the nations of the world. As such, I gave the US the Pioneer, a unique Settler with a movement speed of 3.
• A Monestary replacement for Japan has been suggested by several forumgoers. Shinto shrines are often side-by-side with Bhuddist temples in Japan, and therefore seem to be a good choice for this replacement. The Shinto Shrine increases happiness +2 and provides culture from any luxury resource (unlike the Monestary), but at less culture per resource.

I feel these three civs are underpowered in vanilla, thus these changes are intended to be balance improvements for the civs. Further explanation and reasoning behind these specific choices can be found here and here.

 

[Seek]

Sure! I wrote out the details at the link.

Doh, coulda looked there before posting!

Looks great, cool to see the ideas from pages and pages ago coming to fruition! The Pioneer seems a little underwhelming at first glance, but I'll give it a shot soon.

 

[Ahriman]

Some interesting ideas.

I would say:
I like the idea of an industrial revolution English power. One thing that might be really cool though is to allow them to have even greater use of coal.
So one possibility would be to let them build the factory as normal, and then create an extra, early "Mill" building that provides extra production but also consumes a coal resource.
Extra production is a huge advantage, but this might be more balanced.
Manufacturing Plant also feels more 20th century than Industrial revolution.
Another possibility might be a Seaport UB that gave extra production.

On US, I think the expansion thing is already covered by their UA, I think there has to be *something* that focuses on their 20th century dominance rather than their 18th/19th century expansion.
Some possibilities: a superior stock exchange UB.
A Superhighway UB that gives gold but requires oil.
A cheaper/earlier/more effective research lab.

Again, I think for Japan their ability needs to somehow represent their 20th century rise to power.
I know that late-game bonuses tend to be weak, but I think its possible to do this in a way that is still well-balanced if the bonus is core enough.
Ideally we'd give something with Robotics, but that seems too late.
A seaport UB might also make sense for Japan, since they had to import resources so much.

 

[harry_flashman]

Ah good, it's about time we had a half decent blighty in this game. I like the idea of the early industrial boost. I'd call it "T' Mill". Or perhaps "T' Dark Satanic Mill"

 

[Ahriman]

I thought about this some more, and a Factory UB replacement probably really is simpler and cleaner for England than trying to create a new separate building as well.
Foundry would be another name alternative.

A Stock Exchange UB could give the base benefit AND +1 gold per 2 citizens, for example. That would be a nice US advantage representing 20th century American economic dominance, while still supporting their generally expansionist theme.

For Japan, I think they're designed to be a very militaristic faction, so I think anything else should support that, I really don't think a cultural bonus works in terms of their strategic theme.
I don't have any particular brilliant ideas though.
A battleship UU would be more useful than a fighter.
The Foreign Legion might also make more sense as a Japanese UU. FL feels just weird for France, I'd much rather see them with a high strength knight UU. Why should France be getting superior conquering military in the early 20th century?
* * *
On the original changes in this thread, most seem reasonable, however:

Longbowman: Can move after attacking.

seems broken, especially if you're allowing the longbow bombardment promotions to convert into melee promotions when upgraded to riflemen.
The 3 range Longbow is already very powerful, why did you feel it needed a boost?

Now befriends city-states instead of conquering them, better utilizing his unique ability.

Is this just an AI flavor change?
I already find in vanilla that Alex ususally buys city states.

I think the Iroquois longhouse is already valuable enough, I don't think it needs the base effect too.

I like the Janissary tweak. Not sure about the UA though. It doesn't really fit in any Ottoman theme, but neither did the old one.
The Ottoman "theme" as such seems to be a massive concentration of power in the Renaissance, followed by not much else. Is there some way that their UA could support this?
For example: "Ottoman Glory", triggers a 20 turn golden age when the civ enters the Renaissance era.

Would give a great chance to bump out a huge army of Janissiaries and Sipahis to go on a massive rampage, and hopefully build yourself enough of a power wedge to sustain yourself for the rest of the game.
I'd love to see a Europe that was really *afraid* of the Turk in the Renaissance, but if they managed to hold out, gradually the threat would decline over time.
This would also further encourage them to be building the Janissiary, rather than wasting time focusing on longswords like most other factions tend to do.

 

[Thalassicus]

Foundry was a name I considered too, though I settled on "Manufacturing Plant" since the former is centered around metal production. The Industrial Revolution started in the textile sector. Manufacturing Plant might seem wordy, but is a synonym and the source of the word 'factory' anyway.

I'm hesitant to replace one late-game bonus with another for the US and Japan. One purpose of removing those was how generally-useless late game bonuses are. Germany is the only other I can think of with a bonus that late, but it's a land unit, and has the extremely early-game UA to make up for it.

Matching civ prominence to eras doesn't really work out for ideal gameplay. France gets a bonus that basically affects it before it existed as a nation, for example. I think what's more important is to get the feel of the civ right. After all, George Washington did not command the armies of the American Empire from 4000bce - 2000ce.

The Longbowmen buff was removed when I added the Manufacturing Plant. A buff was placed there because it was the only non-naval thing England has in vanilla. The problem with the civ in vanilla is the lack of choice between civ/map selection as described in the rationale section, and in depth in the discussions on that topic in the combined thread here.

Alexander's AI thing is purely an AI thing. He used to prioritize killing CSs, which is silly considering his trait!

These are on a scale of 1 to 10:

<Where LeaderType="LEADER_ALEXANDER" MinorCivApproachType="MINOR_CIV_APPROACH_IGNORE"/>
<Set Bias="4"/> <!-- was 4 -->

<Where LeaderType="LEADER_ALEXANDER" MinorCivApproachType="MINOR_CIV_APPROACH_FRIENDLY"/>
<Set Bias="8"/> <!-- was 5 -->

<Where LeaderType="LEADER_ALEXANDER" MinorCivApproachType="MINOR_CIV_APPROACH_PROTECTIVE"/>
<Set Bias="7"/> <!-- was 3 -->

<Where LeaderType="LEADER_ALEXANDER" MinorCivApproachType="MINOR_CIV_APPROACH_CONQUEST"/>
<Set Bias="3"/> <!-- was 8 -->

Looking at the files... I just realized they included this in some patch, though undocumented. I'll remove it from the mod.

Iroquois are horrible in vanilla. The UA is buggy on road/forest boundaries, UU is situational and longhouse is a situational sidegrade instead of a buff. As mentioned in the rationale section, the whole civ is more dependent upon RNG map generation luck than other leaders, which isn't a fun way to play a civ.

In addition, the longhouse got nerfed in B-TI relative to other civs. The changes made here increase the cost and maintenance of the longhouse, while compensating these further nerfs with a production buff to bring it up to the same building capability as workshops. Even so, it takes a long time to really get that rolling since it relies on high city populations. It doesn't place the Iroquois in the "overpowered" status of vanilla China, but does at least make the civ decent. I think I might buff the Mohawk Warrior further, since from playtesting I've found the leader's still underpowered and the UA isn't alterable.

UAs have severely limited options in the file, as described earlier in the thread.

With the possibilities we have available, the Lawmaker trait seemed to represent Suleiman the Lawmaker's biography the best, as discussed in the rationale section. It fits both his administrative reforms and even his status as a conqueror, since the trait helps warmongers.

 

[Ahriman]

The Industrial Revolution started in the textile sector

Hence, "Mill" or "Steam Mill" or something? Mftg plant sounds 20th century.

I'm hesitant to replace one late-game bonus with another for the US and Japan

I understand the hesitation, but I think its ok to do this for a couple of factions. We don't want every faction to feel the same, and having an edge in the end-game is an interesting strategic variant, as long as that edge is large enough.

I agree that a late-game bonus needs to be a very common thing that you want to use a lot, and the panzer is a good way of doing this.
But a stock exchange UB doesn't come that late (its the same tier as artillery), and more money is something thats generically useful in every game. You could even make their stock exchange come early as well, at Economics tech. The trick is just to make the bonus large enough. The later in the game the bonus comes, the larger it needs to be to be balanced. But, a stock exchange building that gave +1 gold per 2 citizens and +25% gold, say for example? Big deal in competing for any late-game victory.

I agree a Battleship isn't the best idea, but a cultural bonus really, really doesn't make strategic/thematic sense for Japan, whose strategic-design in-game is all about military. No Japanese player is going to be leveraging their civ strengths for a cultural win.

I think what's more important is to get the feel of the civ right.

I agree that its important to get Civ theme/flavor/feel right, but I think that each faction is also designed . Some favor historic flavor more (Arabs, England, Egypt) with something of a grab-bag of abilities, some favor particular strategy more (Siam for a cultural win, Japan for military, etc.).

I think Chivalric Knights fits very much with the French flavor, which is about the old aristocratic regime, whereas Foreign Legion (bonus in enemy territories?) doesn't fit them at all. They make sense going for a cultural win, and their culture means that they'll have a lot of territory, so giving bonuses only outside that territory is not synergistic at all.

I think that the defining flavor of the USA's history *is* its 20th century economic and industrial domination. That's its impact on the world. Its 19th century manifest destiny expansionism is important primarily because it caused superpower status. So I think it makes massive sense to have at least one civ as a late-game bully-boy, and the US makes the most sense here.

The Longbowmen buff was removed when I added the Manufacturing Plant

Ok, fair enough.

Iroquois are horrible in vanilla

I disagree with this. The longhouse is already *huge* bonus. Compare it to the hydro plant.
But obviously how good it should be depends on how good you make the vanilla workshop.
And I find every mapscript has lots of forest, and Iroquois are flavor-biased to start in it.
I find Iroquois lots of fun to play, I think a forest civ is great, much like a hill-civ for Inca.
If I were to tweak them, I'd keep this flavor, like I'd keep the free roads benefit only within culture, but I'd allow them to get double moves on forest anywhere, even outside culture, like the Incas and hills.

he Lawmaker trait seemed to represent Suleiman the Lawmaker's biography the best, as discussed in the rationale section. It fits both his administrative reforms and even his status as a conqueror, since the trait helps warmongers.

I think it is a huge mistake to try to build a civ around a particular historic person.
None of the civs are designed that way.
All of them are designed around abilities and units that fit the flavor of the civ, not the flavor of the particular leader. Napoleon's ability is Anciens Regime! Bismark has Panzers, barbarian ability and Landsknechts.

I don't think there is any good synergy at all between a GPP boost, which favors a peaceful, large city builder strategy, and the Ottoman Renaissance-era military superpower from Janissiaries and Sipahis. I'd prefer a UA that supported that strategically. GPP boost is not a warmonger trait.

 

[Seek]

I understand the hesitation, but I think its ok to do this for a couple of factions. We don't want every faction to feel the same, and having an edge in the end-game is an interesting strategic variant, as long as that edge is large enough.

I agree that a late-game bonus needs to be a very common thing that you want to use a lot, and the panzer is a good way of doing this.
But a stock exchange UB doesn't come that late (its the same tier as artillery), and more money is something thats generically useful in every game. You could even make their stock exchange come early as well, at Economics tech. The trick is just to make the bonus large enough. The later in the game the bonus comes, the larger it needs to be to be balanced. But, a stock exchange building that gave +1 gold per 2 citizens and +25% gold, say for example? Big deal in competing for any late-game victory.

Really like this idea, the settler UU is kind of underwhelming. Maybe in addition it could get a GS GPP?

I agree a Battleship isn't the best idea, but a cultural bonus really, really doesn't make strategic/thematic sense for Japan, whose strategic-design in-game is all about military. No Japanese player is going to be leveraging their civ strengths for a cultural win.


I agree that its important to get Civ theme/flavor/feel right, but I think that each faction is also designed . Some favor historic flavor more (Arabs, England, Egypt) with something of a grab-bag of abilities, some favor particular strategy more (Siam for a cultural win, Japan for military, etc.).

The reason some of these traits/uniques were changed was to move some civs away from their totally deterministic abilities (mostly the combat-focused civs). If you'd like to read more, there was some discussion in the Balance - Combined thread starting on page 17. Japan's abilities being so war focused and expansionistic seemed really odd to me and others - except for the brief period around WWII, Japan has historically been an extremely protectionist and inward-looking state. In gameplay terms, I could easily see Japan staying small and using their UU and UA to puppet a large empire, utilizing the Shinto Temple to move for a cultural win and reduce the unhappiness burden from expansion. The unique seaport is an interesting idea that was not considered, but the idea of buffing sea resources was discussed, as was limiting visibility within their borders, a unique castle and a unique courthouse.

 

[Ahriman]

Japan's abilities being so war focused and expansionistic seemed really odd to me and others - except for the brief period around WWII, Japan has historically been an extremely protectionist and inward-looking state

Fair point, but I was seeing Japan's abilities as a strategy-oriented civ, rather than a flavor-oriented civ.

I don't think a Shinto Temple is really going to help a conquest-culture-puppet strategy much, because puppets seem very reluctant to build culture buildings.
And a puppet empire isn't very historic Japanese either, excepting 20th century.

And Japan has certainly had a very militaristic history, its just that most of that history was oriented internally.
It would be cool to get something which could represent the Meji restoration/industrialization period.
That really is probably the most astonishing industrial re-invention ever, with the possible exception of the last 3 decades in China.

Alternatively, a Seaport UB that boosted the yield of every coastal tile might be worth considering.

Limited visibility sounds low value, particularly for the human player. Not very tangible. Besides, I think their UA is fine, they need another UB or UU.
Unique courthouse would support conquest and annexation, which also feels out of flavor.
Japanese castles already respresented with the Wonder.

 

[Seek]

Fair point, but I was seeing Japan's abilities as a strategy-oriented civ, rather than a flavor-oriented civ.

I don't think a Shinto Temple is really going to help a conquest-culture-puppet strategy much, because puppets seem very reluctant to build culture buildings.
And a puppet empire isn't very historic Japanese either, excepting 20th century.

True, but I was just pointing out a possible strategy synergistic with the new UB - it's obviously not the building's only purpose. I find puppets will, however, frequently build happiness buildings, which the Shinto temple also is. But I admit I haven't yet playtested with it, so we'll see.

And Japan has certainly had a very militaristic history, its just that most of that history was oriented internally.
It would be cool to get something which could represent the Meji restoration/industrialization period.
That really is probably the most astonishing industrial re-invention ever, with the possible exception of the last 3 decades in China.

I forgot - a factory UB was also suggested but was favored for England instead. Which makes the seaport UB an interesting idea. It's a pretty mediocre building atm because it's so situational. One could get pretty creative with it's effects. Ideas: Give it a % bonus to production, culture in addition to hammers for water resources, a city defense value, some happiness, (as you said) give all water tiles hammers. A combination of any two of these would make a good and justifiable UB, I think. Name: Minato (Japanese for Harbor).

Limited visibility sounds low value, particularly for the human player. Not very tangible. Besides, I think their UA is fine, they need another UB or UU.
Unique courthouse would support conquest and annexation, which also feels out of flavor.
Japanese castles already respresented with the Wonder.

By and large, these arguments were what made the decision not to use them. The castle (ignoring the Wonder argument - it can easily be changed) and limited visibility ideas were to represent being protectionist and defensive. The castle idea was partially rejected because of similarity to India's UB, and the limited visibility (in addition to your argument) because the AI has enough problems with forgetting where units are in the fog with regular visibility (and the fact that it's not possible).

 

[Sneaks]

What I like and dislike from the ideas:

Pioneer: Interesting idea, but I would only really like it thematically if it was what amounts to a musketman that can settle. Given the existence of the minuteman already, I would say just use the pioneer as an override to that, sans any combat bonuses. Replacing the initial settler is far too imbalancing that early.

American UB ideas to replace B25:
National Park - replaces Opera House. Gives additional 3 Happiness.
Immigration Station - Replaces Harbor. Gives additional 1 production and 15% growth. (think Ellis Island. This idea is my personal fave, and synergizes well.)

Japan:
The Shinto shrine idea is frankly totally out of sorts with the rest of the bonuses. Japan has been designed as a civ to mimic the very turbulent and war filled history of the nation. How do we create a UB that reflects this but also adds the culture aspect so many crave?

Dojo - replaces the Armory. Requires source of Iron in borders. Additional +3 Culture. Does not require a Barracks.

England:
I like the idea of something akin to the Industrial Revolution, but giving an early factory is too gamebreaking. Instead, I propose this:

Textile Mill - Replaces Windmill. Can be built anywhere. 20% production. Addition 1 production for any nearby Sheep, Cotton, Furs, Silk.


Additional balances I believe still needed:
Germany:
Blitzkrieg - Replaces UA. All units receive the move after attacking bonus. Units gain combat experience 20% faster.

 

[black213]

I suggest buffing Rome to 50% production of buildings already built in Capital.

 

[Sneaks]

Rome hardly needs a UA buff. 50% would basically be a free factory worth of production starting in Ancient.

 

[Ahriman]

National Park - replaces Opera House. Gives additional 3 Happiness.

Not so keen, its not like these really make a big difference IRL, and they're not particularly unique to the US, or particularly thematic.

Immigration Station - Replaces Harbor. Gives additional 1 production and 15% growth. (think Ellis Island. This idea is my personal fave, and synergizes well.)

Interesting idea, but I think this would come too early. Big waves of migration in the classical era doesn't feel right.
Would make more sense as a Seaport UB, symbolizing 19th century immigration waves.

Dojo - replaces the Armory. Requires source of Iron in borders. Additional +3 Culture. Does not require a Barracks.

This is weak. Armories are a rarely built structure, and why should it consume an iron resource? If iron is genuinely scarce, which I think is the goal, then an extra Samurai should be more valuable than a small culture boost.

Textile Mill - Replaces Windmill. Can be built anywhere. 20% production. Addition 1 production for any nearby Sheep, Cotton, Furs, Silk.

Very interesting idea. I like the idea of a textile mill. I worry that Economics is a little early for a a factory booster, but this seems plausible. However, we'd need to balance it around the modded windmill; give it the same production boost as the rebalanced windmill.

Blitzkrieg - Replaces UA. All units receive the move after attacking bonus. Units gain combat experience 20% faster

I don't think this makes sense. WW2 Germany is already represented with the Panzer
Its not really representative of the vast majority of historic German warfare.
And Blitzkrieg is overrated as a truly separate kind of warfare anyway, its really just armored spearhead doctrine coordinated effectively with airstrikes.

I suggest buffing Rome to 50% production of buildings already built in Capital.

Why? Rome is already pretty balanced, 50% would be insanely OP.

 

[Sneaks]

I would be cool with it replacing Seaport if it removed the requirement for workable sea resources nearby. That was my concern there.

As for Dojo, I did not mean for it to consume the Iron, just work similarly to the Stable. Obviously not entirely needed. I really love the idea of replacing the Armory because even though the base building is meh, the replacement would be great. Also, there are not nearly enough UB replacements on the lower end of the tree, and I am a fan of having UBs on the tech track that the civ would want to naturally progress down anyway.

About the WW2 already being represented, I don't really see why that matters. Half the civs have multiple Uniques of the same period, and Furor Teutonicus is easily one of the worst UAs in the game at the moment. Blitzkrieg would synergize extremely well with the warmongering UUs of Germany, especially the landsknecht.

 

[Seek]

I'm not crazy about the idea of the Dojo for the UB replacement (I'm liking the Shinto Shrine in my current game) but if we follow this route, I would favor it replacing the Barracks or Forge instead. The former because of the National Wonder, which would make it a stronger UB, and the latter because it's an equally weak building, but we could add +XP it'd be pretty badass. (The iron requirement should definitely go no matter what - if Japan has no iron, they'd have a useless UU *and* UB!)

But I'll reiterate that the motivation for the new uniques is to make the civs less deterministic and one dimensional, so I'd prefer something non-militaristic if we decide to ditch the Shrine.

 

[Sneaks]

I guess I just go into this with a different viewpoint. One thing that I loved about Civ IV is that many of the civs WERE vary deterministic thanks to their traits. When you make everyone good at everything, you lose the individuality of them, the reason to play each. The Shinto shrine does theoretically make Japan a better all-rounder, but does so through a mechanic which makes zero historical sense. Japan getting extra culture for nearby sugar might work well technically, but terribly thematically. Adding culture to the Armory as a UB makes it an EXCELLENT building. I basically have a temple that helps my military. Japan had an early military with strong cultural tradition, and this allows the civ just that.

 

[Ahriman]

I would be cool with it replacing Seaport if it removed the requirement for workable sea resources nearby

Agreed.

As for Dojo, I did not mean for it to consume the Iron, just work similarly to the Stable. Obviously not entirely needed.

I think that would be too specialized and too rare to take up a UB slot. You might only be able to build 1-2 per game.

Also, there are not nearly enough UB replacements on the lower end of the tree,

There are UB replacements for watermill, workshop, library, temple. UB's where you get the benefits for most of the game (because they are available early) and that you want to build in nearly every city are very hard to balance.

How about a Forge UB? That seems very thematic for Japan, given their early mastery of steel-working and sword forging.
Maybe larger military production boost, and some culture.

Alternatively, I really like the idea of making the Foreign Legion (with a name and graphics change) a Japanese UU, and making the French get a Knight UU instead. Much more thematic for both parties; Japan's WW2 infantry, and their ability to operate in enemy territory and make massive conquests, was pretty outstanding.

But I'll reiterate that the motivation for the new uniques is to make the civs less deterministic and one dimensional

I dunno, I think strategically 1-dimensional civs are ok, as long as they're thematically flavorful.

The Shinto shrine does theoretically make Japan a better all-rounder, but does so through a mechanic which makes zero historical sense. Japan getting extra culture for nearby sugar might work well technically, but terribly thematically

Agreed.