Learnado's Workshop Is Better Than Sun Tzu

[MirandaCore]

I would put this thing into someone else's thread, but can't find an appropriate one.

Anyways, Sun Tzu's Academy isn't all that useful since it takes 600 shields to build it. W/ that, u can build 15 barracks in ur other cities, and thats about all u need (since its difficult to get more than 15-20 highly productive cities before the Forbidden Palace).

The only really useful thing about Sun Tzu's is healing damaged units in enemy cities and upgrading units far away from ur core cities before u have railroad. But then again, u can always rush build a barracks where ur units are.

Learnado's Workshop meanwhile allows u to build tons of horseman, and upgrade them to knights and cavlary at half the cost. Its also useful for upgrading spearman all the way up to mech inf. If u're a war monger, thats a heck lot of money saved by that wonder.

 

[Zouave]

I can't take it anymore!! That is the NINTH time in three posts you misspelled CAVALRY!!

BTW, you're right, of course about Leonardo's.

 

[Shabbaman]

LOL

By the way, who's Learnado
Yeah, the workshop rules. Add to that that the workshop works everywhere, and the academy only on the same continent.

 

[dojoboy]

Originally posted by Zouave
I can't take it anymore!! That is the NINTH time in three posts you misspelled CAVALRY!!

BTW, you're right, of course about Leonardo's.

Amen, Zouave! Don't you folks know what "calvary" is? Where have all the good Christians gone?

Leonardo's is a must --- definitely prefer it to Sun Tzu.

 

[Exsanguination]

I only build Sun Tzu's if I have nothing else to build (rare) or I'm conquering the world and don't feel like building barrackses (sp?). They're so cheap anyway.

Leo's absolutely rules, one of the best middle age wonders (behind Sistene).

 

[BCLG100]

i always try and build both that way not only can i upgrade in all cities but i can do for a cheap price as well

but also leonardos is not as grat as it once was

 

[Maple]

Leonardo was overpowered in civ2. You could simply build 100 horsemen, then upgrade them to whatever you wanted for free. No other civ could do that. In civ3, upgrading has become much more balanced, and Leonardo makes upgrading less expensive.

 

[Allemand]

I would favor Sun Tzu on a huge panagea map, where you are likely to have 100+ cities. You save money by not having to maintain the barracks, in addition to not having to build them. In wartime, you get instant barracks in captured cities.

Besides, Leonardo will probably not save you as much money as Sun Tzu in the long run.

 

[ShredZ]

I was gonna use this pic for a new "Wuts the most youve spent...?" thread but whatever, if I wouldve had Leonardos in this game it wouldve saved me some serious cash...

 

[Allemand]

I figure you can easily save 10,000+ gold with Leonardo's.

 

[Sullla]

Whoa, slow down here people! Depending on the map and type of game you're playing, either one of those wonders can be vastly superior to the other. On an archipelago map or in a situation where you have deliberately set up a mass upgrade project, Leonardo's Workshop is clearly better. On the other hand, the power of Sun Tzu's on any kind of Pangea map ESPECIALLY those of standard size and larger can be immense. Remember, it also saves you money every turn from not having to pay upkeep for barracks, and shields for not having to build them. Also of note to the militarous sort, with Sun Tzu you will have a barracks in each city conquered, allowing units to heal there before the city comes out of resistance (before a barracks could ordinarily be rushed). So they both have their uses, but I would never flat out state one is much better than the other.

 

[Dynamic Cow]

i remember my game as Chairman Moo-moo of the Chinese people. pangea map, large army, both above GW´s, the development of Military Tradition 50 turn before everyone else... do i have to say i ruled the world for a while? (those damn american pikemen...)

 

[Higher Game]

Forget about the workshop. Upgrading is inexpensive anyway. You will save a ton of money with Sun Tzu in the long run, and it really helps with conquering your neighbors. I play on continents and I rarely make any wonder at all. With a leader, I would probably make Sun Tzu over any other wonder, except maybe the Great Library.

Yes, Sun Tzu usually saves me more money than Adam Smith's Trading Company, which was grossly overpowered in Civ 2.

 

[JollyRoger]

Each has its merits depending on the game situation. With my playing style, I usually prefer Leonardo's. With strategically placed barracks, I can upgrade quickly. In a game with tech parity, the ability to quickly and cheaply upgrade can allow you a higher quantity of high quality units quickly which you would then of course use to take Sun Tzu from the civ stupid enough to build it for you.

 

[BCLG100]

doesnt the sun tzu wonder mean that the barracks are free?

 

[Evincar]

Hey, Sun Tzu also saves money. Let's say you get it by 750 D.C which sounds reasonable. you save 15-20 gpt during 300 turns, which makes around 5000 gold. Enough for a couple of Beers

 

[Bamspeedy]

For me Sun-Tzu's is far more valuable for the reasons Sulla and Evincar stated. Island maps (and if I start on a rather small island) is probably the only map I would prefer Leo's.

Sun Tzu's is great because, in addition to what has already been stated, every unit you build (or rush, if in emergency), will be veteran (if on the same continent as Sun Tzu's, of course). Veterans are alot stronger than regular units. Also, everytime you get attacked, if they don't kill your unit on that turn, your unit gets fully healed.

Count how many shields it takes to build barracks in all your cities and the upkeep of those every turn, then you will realize which is better for you. I do realize though that once you do get railroads it is really easy to move your troops to upgrade anywhere.

Sun Tzu's is also great to build just to simply deny it from the AI. You have a much better advantage if it is your veteran units vs their regular units than vice versa. The AI rarely keeps alot of money around for upgrading anyways, so they wouldn't use Leo's much. Ever wonder why you still see all those ancient units around in the industrial-modern age?

 

[Portuguese]

I don't know which one saves more money...

Personally, I think that you are substimating Sun Tzu!!!
5000 minimum: who has only 15-20 barracks?

Evincar: 750 DC is 750 AD in English. I personally make that mistake too

 

[zeeter]

I usually don't bother with the workshop. If its there and I have nothing else to do I will build it. Generally what I will do is, once I get a landmark advance I'll max out my taxes for two or three turns so that I can afford to do the upgrade. Two or three turns isn't going to kill your technology.

As far as Sun Tzu, I have never, in all three Civ's, built this wonder. There are more important wonders to build when this is available. Once I've built those other wonders, Sun Tzu is usually already built.

 

[WOPR]

I like them both.

My current civilization, the Babylonians, doesn't have the Militaristic trait. This means I pay full cost for barracks.

Barracks are required in a city in order to upgrade a unit in that city.

Currently, I also have a rather large, sprawling empire. Even with the Forbidden Palace, this means I have some "not-so-productive" cities.

Fortunately, I was able to get both Sun Tzu's War Academy and Leonardo's Workshop in the current game. (Great Leaders can be so convenient sometimes.) Rather than waiting some ridiculous number of turns (40?) to build a barracks in some far-flung town, I automatically get it thanks to the Wonder.

Since I have a barracks in every town, upgrading my Spearmen to Pikemen (and a few Babylonian Bowmen to Longbowmen) was a snap. Even more of a snap since I had Leo's...