Learning the ropes - puppet or burn and then puppet question

[peddroelm]

Still chasing my chimeric dream of a deity pangea domination win ...

My latest strategy involves using a modified [add a fast worker in building queue] a la Tabarnak 4 city iron rush opening fallowed by steel pop with GS from liberty using Montezuma's Jaguar based vampiric troops ...

In my current attempt :

settled 3 fast cities as according to the strategy... [one had 2 iron]
settled a 4-th relatively soon after on top of a new lux
settled 5-th to get a 6 iron tile and a natural wonder[+3 ] with purchased settler ~ turn 90-ish {fail scouting from my part - Elizabeth was assembling at my borders}
settled 6-th city near the 6 iton one to grab triple lux double for trade...

Alex DOW-ed me as I was about to DOW Elizabeth.. Hopefully I had a LS in position that ate half his army and convinced him a white peace would be best for the moment ...

I moved against England and soon conquered Canterbury. Killed most of their army in about 10 turns and at T 108 with my troops in the position presented in the attached image Elizabeth sued for peace offering [leving her with London[? ] and York[9 ]]

Spoiler :

100 meh
Coventry - 3 on my coast - BURN
Nottingham - 6 decent production spot - extra lux to sell back to Elizabeth - puppet
and
Hastings - 16!! pop.
-Bad puppet stuff aqueduct, granary and floating gardens ...
-good stuff - has Colosseum, market and library

My first instinct was to puppet - +24 . turn would mean a LOT for my empire even 16 turns latter after the revolt ...Only at +43 atm ...

I will get +8 happy from Organized religion [monuments and a temple]
+5 from meritocracy [more roads]
+9 when Coventry is gone
=but I fear it will not be enough to bring me back from -30 happy...

Razing Hastings would take 16 turns and push me even deeper into unhappiness [~ -40] for all those turns ...

Cannot sell Hastings as it is between London and me ...

============

What are my options here ?

1) Wait it out for 16 turns while Hasting gets razed and then attempt to take London with a bunch of near obsolete LS ? No extra iron for some WarMachines
2) Straight puppet and attempt to swallow the 18 happy deficit in the 10 turns allowed for peace and them move in on London? My cities have Coliseums available to build but they lack population [kept most cities farming gold on calendar and mining luxuries so low growth] - low production. And with -50% production on top of that it would take for ever. + I'll go bankrupt if I stop gold farming [switch production] and abandon market production ...
2.5) Annex after 16 turns and build a university for massive increase in & (tradepost spam) output ?

ATM I'm leaning towards option number 2..

This warmongering business is complicated stuff ...

 

[flairin]

how do you go about settling so many cities like that... 7 before turn 100??

 

[Thyrwyn]

I would annex. The courthouse will give you another 3 happy, and having control of the 16 citizens will allow you to get the city off of gold focus and on to something more productive. a size 16 city will also add a lot of trade route income if you can connect it to your capitol.

 

[peddroelm]

how do you go about settling so many cities like that... 7 before turn 100??

Basically this is the true power of the Liberty policy tree. If you've got the room for it liberty allows for some very fast expanding...

Here Liberty-Piety combo its illustrated in a MadDjinn video on youtube [Rome LP - pangea] ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuYp-u9cbSI

You could also liberty see fast expand illustrated on another one of his videos [England LP - continents ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luPZb4MpWPc

Also a good read this thread [tabarnak's 4 city iron rush start] "http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=448510" - illustrates how you can get 4 cities up and 4 workers before turn 50 ...

 

[peddroelm]

This is the situation at turn T121 when I'm about to DOW Elizabeth and try and grab London (Mausoleum and Colossus) ...Will be tough without war machines (no extra iron)

Spoiler :

Up to -1 .. Decided to puppet both Nottingham[razing this was also an option] and Hastings [managed to starve them down a bit by breaking down farms and having rebels squat food tiles] ... Bought luxuries, built roads, temples and coliseums London has 21 pop (auch) ...

Culture wise its a decent position - will get Reformation in about 12 turns [maybe less] for a much needed economics wise GA..

Science wise - pretty terrible [8 turns from education - only one signed RA] - A fast university in Hastings might mitigate the science handicap for a bit ...Long term wise its not looking so hot [more universities and Rifleman/Artillery mass GS pop ?]...

Military wise - I hope my LS will be enough for 27 str London ..

=========

As a side note - again I fail at scouting - 2 unmet players - would have got more gold prices from some extra luxuries and maybe even an extra RA or two ....
- now its kinda of late with both Ramses and Alex hatting me and alternating DOW ing and asking for peace ...

As a side note there is a mongol settler heading for a gap between my cities [Genghis was my only friend left ]

 

[avdale]

Something kind of abusive you can do to help out on the puppet happiness front is take a city then deliberately let the A.I recap it and seesaw it a few times. Things like 16 pop puppets will absolutely annihilate your happiness as you've found and its more effective for that happiness to go into supporting your core cities pop. A cities pop halves every time its taken so if you had let the A.I recap Hastings once and then subsequently capped it yourself you would have it at 4pop and not 16.

 

[Syailendra]

Isn't it better to have 4 good cities than 7 but not that good? I swear i've never built more than 5 cities in my entire game, and the 5th must have at least 2 lux that i haven't got yet! Having 7 even with liberty is not healthy for your empire, imagine how many turns your cities at stagnant when building settlers... Imagine what is the delay of GA and policies... I guess you should recalculate your decision to expand too quickly.

 

[peddroelm]

Isn't it better to have 4 good cities than 7 but not that good? I swear i've never built more than 5 cities in my entire game, and the 5th must have at least 2 lux that i haven't got yet! Having 7 even with liberty is not healthy for your empire, imagine how many turns your cities at stagnant when building settlers... Imagine what is the delay of GA and policies... I guess you should recalculate your decision to expand too quickly.

I'll try to explain why I've built 7 cities [~reloaded from turn 75 - focused more on happy and meet another civ earlier] and gave it another go in this particular example as I feel a general tall vs wide empire debate is a theme for another thread ...


Jaguars based troops are what separate Aztecs from the rest of the civs -> Jaguars upgrade into swords and then long swords... This make Aztecs an "iron based" civ if domination is the goal ...When Iron working tech and the 4-th settler were done I had 2 iron in one of my earlier cities and 0 more in sight so I've settled on a good location on top of a silver mine - sometimes you don't have iron - but this time is was just my fail scouting - there was a 6 tile Iron only it was very far away from my capital. When I've finally discovered it [~T85 LS time] I splashed 500 and brought a settler in the closest city and grabbed the iron [DEAD WITHOUT IT...] City 6 & 7 were only for back-filing - securing my territory from random settlers that could interrupt trade-routes and ALWAYS GENERATE unnecessary hate {common borders} ...

Yes there will be happiness issues {mainly were caused by me trying to swallow that 16 pop puppet - which I annexed and starved down to 12 - it had a university up on reload and a GS for rifling out before I managed to research education} ..

All that territory sprinkled with some trade-posts, calendar and mining luxuries adds in a ton of gold ...Science will eventually skyrocket when you get universities up in 6+ cities ..

Yes there will be few/ no natural GA - but you do get one from liberty, one from piety and n from popping GG generated to combat ..And GAs generate tons of GOLD - gold that is essential for a decent military force. Gold that can be used on cultural CS to help offset happiness, cultural and strategic resources issues ...Maritime CS also add more food to a wide empire ...

Going wide greatly increases chance to get various luxuries and strategic resources ...

=====

Only real issue is cultural policy slowdown - you are kind of forced to go Liberty Piety - by they can both be finished {gold-ally CS} ~T150 and they do provide some policy costs reduction geared towards wide empires ...Then a mix of Honor and Autocracy should see you till the end ... {both professional army and militarism are ridiculously good for this strategy}

=====
again - I would reference you towards MadDjinn's Rome LP on youtube - he really goes crazy with settlers in that one ...

 

[NotSure]

That's the last place you want to see the Hanging Gardens - not much more than grassland and coast. No advise, just wanted to say that it was impressive you got back to only -1 happiness. I expand fast too, and I'd definitely settle 5 or 6 cities if I thought they were worth it and I could hold them. I think I would've burned Hastings down to 8 pop or so and then stuck the remainder on those mines and in any specialist slots I had available (after the revolt and annex, of course). My worry is, if it stays a puppet it's gonna slap those smiley faces away all game. Did your LS get thrashed in London? Hopefully, someone close built the PT.

 

[peddroelm]

That's the last place you want to see the Hanging Gardens - not much more than grassland and coast. No advise, just wanted to say that it was impressive you got back to only -1 happiness. I expand fast too, and I'd definitely settle 5 or 6 cities if I thought they were worth it and I could hold them. I think I would've burned Hastings down to 8 pop or so and then stuck the remainder on those mines and in any specialist slots I had available (after the revolt and annex, of course). My worry is, if it stays a puppet it's gonna slap those smiley faces away all game. Did your LS get thrashed in London? Hopefully, someone close built the PT.

Not Hanging Gardens the world wonder - Floating Gardens - the Water Mill replacement (Aztec Unique Building) ...

After I reloaded back from turn 75 - I invested more in happy and managed to revert back to positive happiness after I've burned down the small city and traded some extra lux for lux...

Problem with razing such huge pop city is that RAZING PERFORMS ANNEX -> so you are boned with huge - happy [-50% production] until you stop razing and purchase // build courthouse ...

My LS didn't get trashed{reload} by I couldn't conquer it either until much later [~T150] after I used the GS from Hastings university to pop rifling ... {was on a narrow path surrounded by water so I couldn't flank the ton of ranged {catapults, archers, longbows, caravels SOTL..} defenders hiding behind the city - lacked iron to build warmachines ...} The game might be lost in the long run - {got only one capital at turn 150} but I will continue it to hopefully learn more about the late game where I am even more clueless as I rarely manage to make it that far ... {London has Colossus, I will hit Economics relatively soon {have a few universities up - lots and lots of trade posts} so my GPT should really pick up even out of GA time}

AI Fighters are only 40-50 turns away and NUKES soon after ...

 

[NotSure]

Not Hanging Gardens the world wonder - Floating Gardens - the Water Mill replacement (Aztec Unique Building) ...

derp...

My LS didn't get trashed{reload} by I couldn't conquer it either until much later [~T150] after I used the GS from Hastings university to pop rifling ... {was on a narrow path surrounded by water so I couldn't flank the ton of ranged {catapults, archers, longbows, caravels SOTL..} defenders hiding behind the city - lacked iron to build warmachines ...} The game might be lost in the long run - {got only one capital at turn 150} but I will continue it to hopefully learn more about the late game where I am even more clueless as I rarely manage to make it that far ... {London has Colossus, I will hit Economics relatively soon {have a few universities up - lots and lots of trade posts} so my GPT should really pick up even out of GA time}

AI Fighters are only 40-50 turns away and NUKES soon after ...

I haven't won a deity conquest game because of this, mostly (and a nasty quitting habit). I can get a good first push, but then I have to recover and the PT is gone, so I have to take rationalism (which seems to really stunt expansion & conquest). I've turtled my way to a couple of science wins and a flukey UN win, but I think an ideal set-up (for me at least) to a deity conquest game includes the PT, piety, and a decent rush/expansion. I've found it difficult to get all three.

I've been meaning to open an old mid-game save and see if I couldn't turn one of those science victories into a domination victory by doing the Snarzberry Stealth Bomber rush. Might work in your game? Anyway, good luck!

 

[peddroelm]

Here is the demographics screen at T165 (turn of England's elimination)... nr 1 score - that's a first.. nr 1 land - this also.. Among the last in literacy but surprisingly not far from the average[6 staffed universities] ...

Spoiler :

Still have happy issues - had to sell some gold per turn to buy a lux and a theatre to bring it above -9 .. Circus Maximums and a few more theaters are in production ...Hopefully London and York will build monument/temple/Colosseum combo...

Just hit economics - and when London and York puppets come online I'll probably pop one of my two GG for a huge GPT reward ...

Harun managed to steal two of my CS allies using Genghis as an intermediary and for this I will attack him next...

Maybe this game is salvageable after all ....

 

[peddroelm]

T203 update

Spoiler :

Managed to get to Nr1 land,GNP and manufactured goods [not even in a GA]...
Harun ain't top dog anymore - but its been very slow going - only managed to conquer one of his allied city states {he has them all -3 that are mine and 2 I've conquered} and one of his cities... Same story - narrow terrain - lack of navy from my part ...

He has me out-teched - Infantry vs top promoted rifles {no artillery yet} ... If I can manage to get his second city it would open the field a bit with both his capital and Egypt's in sight.

Managed to meet Ghandi and he is friendly - managed to squeeze him of some gold ... Have 2 RA due ~ T230...

Have ~4 Public Schools up ~ 4 more on the way ...Had tons of coal. Have tons of oil in the water [refrigeration] and had to drop another city to get 13 oil on land ...

Had to give up on Autocracy and get Order's opener for a quick happiness injection ...

========

Maybe this time I will manage to luck out on a win ...

 

[peddroelm]

T252 update

Captured wonders in Thebes

Spoiler :

Demographics Screen

Spoiler :

Will have Mech Inf and Stealth bombers on turn 258 [have experienced bombers and infantry ready for upgrade...]..Will also have atom bombs a few turns after ...

Only Genghis got the Nuke so far (T248 Manhattan-project) {paid him 130 to go nuke Suleiman} and we're not neighbours yet ..

I fell this is in the bag ...

 

[Tabarnak]

Now you can't lose peddroelm. Congratulations for your deity pangea domination game!

 

[peddroelm]

Now you can't lose peddroelm. Congratulations for your deity pangea domination game!

10q victory was achieved on T281

Spoiler :

 

[Soronery]

If you are planning for a conquest victory, take cities that you can support with happiness to get you gold, culture, and science. Gold is king. When you establish a good base go for their capitols. Raze/sell worthless cities and once you have their capitol generally you can sue for peace. You can't take every city that they have without running into major happiness problems. Usually once you get to stealth bombers you can ignore happiness (not always) and just take their cities.

 

[peddroelm]

If you are planning for a conquest victory, take cities that you can support with happiness to get you gold, culture, and science. Gold is king. When you establish a good base go for their capitols. Raze/sell worthless cities and once you have their capitol generally you can sue for peace. You can't take every city that they have without running into major happiness problems. Usually once you get to stealth bombers you can ignore happiness (not always) and just take their cities.

As you can see on the mini-map on the victory turn - I've managed to keep all(most) their cities {only ever razed 2 [3 pop cities] } ...Piety{organized religion} + Honour{right side} + Order{opener} is a strong wide empire combo happiness wise ...There were some rough below -10 spots but I'm "happy" how it all turned out ...
The +35 happiness from that last screen shot is because the last capital had Forbidden Palace ...Maybe it was Aztec UA had helped provide the policies in time ?

I had signed very few RAs all game - everybody hated and kept DOWing on me so the massive population helped swing it back raw science wise...