Continuing my tradition, lets see what I think of the latest suite of votes:
(3-04) Proposal: Revert barbarian snow tile spawn change
You lost me here.No. The Ger change is debatable, it could certainly be changed for consistency, or maybe leave it as a little mongul benefit. But the herbalist is a niche building, I don't think niche buildings automatically need to have maintenance just because everything else does and I consider the maintenance at this point part of the balance (later game a lot less so, but for those early buildings it does matter).
For me the herbalist is there now, the prod is expensive enough I don’t build it if I don’t need it. The exception is later on to milk a progress/industry per building bonus…but frankly at that point I build all buildings to get that bonus, maintenance or no.If a building is only situationally useful but has no downside other than the production needed to build it then it’s not properly functioning as something you might only want some of the time.
That's equating Herbalist and Lodge to something like a Monument/Shrine/Council, and that's precisely my point.We have examples of both
I can count so many scenarios where an extra 65 hammers could have meant a critical difference. Having 1 one more warrior can be game saving. Having a settler just a few turns quicker can mean the difference between settling a perfect spot, versus losing it to the AI.They're justfor more
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I absolutely think it’s too cheap Without the maintenance. It absolutely should present a greater cost than a shrine, etc.Now again if you think the herbalist is "too cheap" without a maintenance, that's a preference at this point.
Agree to disagree at this point, i think we have laid out the argument well enoughI think you got a little distracted there.
I absolutely think it’s too cheap Without the maintenance. It absolutely should present a greater cost than a shrine, etc.
Maintenance free buildings that aren’t gold-centric are the exception, not the rule. saying a building is/ought to be situational and then removing a major cost component to it, making it one of those exceptions is antithetical. It’s saying 1 thing and then doing another. At minimum, a “situational” building should cost what buildings normally cost, and not have exceptions for cost reduction carved out for it.
So the building is not good enough to be a core building and you want to nerf it even more by having a maintance?It’s precisely because it is a niche building that it should have maintenance.
Shrine is considered as a better building than herbalist almost all the time. Why then should herbalist cost more if it's overall worse? It should be the other way around. To nerf OP buildings and buff underpowered buildings.I absolutely think it’s too cheap Without the maintenance. It absolutely should present a greater cost than a shrine, etc.
I think it does mean worse on average. Otherwise it would be core instead, like monument.situational does not mean worse.
Yes, they do. You have to decide which to build 1st. If you almost always build a shrine before a herbalist, even when you have the herbalist unlocked, then that means that a shrine is simply better and it's not a meaningful choice.Buildings don't compete against other buildings like that.
You do have to consider the greater context though. Part of the reason that shrines are so good early on, is because of the faith race. Its hard to compare that to something that just provides yields for that portion of the game. Even if you buffed several other buildings double time over, its questionable whether they would beat the shrine that early in the game, because of the oppurtunity cost of both founding a religion and denying that founding to someone else.Yes, they do. You have to decide which to build 1st. If you almost always build a shrine before a herbalist, even when you have the herbalist unlocked, then that means that a shrine is simply better and it's not a meaningful choice.
That's the case for me. Even after religion race I build shrines before herbalists (except when I have pantheon that boost herbalists).You do have to consider the greater context though. Part of the reason that shrines are so good early on, is because of the faith race. Its hard to compare that to something that just provides yields for that portion of the game. Even if you buffed several other buildings double time over, its questionable whether they would beat the shrine that early in the game, because of the oppurtunity cost of both founding a religion and denying that founding to someone else.
So the real comparison happens AFTER the founding sprint is over. Now if you still build shrines before X building in every circumstance, than I think you could argue that shrines are just plain better than better than building X.