Lets talk about Korea

[GKShaman]

The only reason China would at all help North Korea in a conflict is due to the possible refugee crisis if the state collapses. China wouldn't want thousands of refugees because logistics for that is a nightmare. "Ally" I feel is a strong term.

NK technology is 70s/80s military tech. I believe I read it in a journal but NK has totally missed out on MEMS technology. In addition, as everyone knows and the game does a decent job of it - trade routes research agreements and in general research cooperation is necessary for tech advancement.

 

[CaterpillarKing]

The only reason China would at all help North Korea in a conflict is due to the possible refugee crisis if the state collapses. China wouldn't want thousands of refugees because logistics for that is a nightmare. "Ally" I feel is a strong term.

NK technology is 70s/80s military tech. I believe I read it in a journal but NK has totally missed out on MEMS technology. In addition, as everyone knows and the game does a decent job of it - trade routes research agreements and in general research cooperation is necessary for tech advancement.

I suppose, or because they want a communist friend, or a buffer from American-ish, land. Also, while they are way behind, their shear military mass could just be thrown against South Korea as they don't have any preservation morals.

 

[forcedalt]

No it has the largest army my manpower. 4 million. America is at like 1.2. Although the US has more resources and machines for war.


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Oh, ok, so....we were .... both right

This got me thinking about the civ. why not fix it so NK always appears at the top of the ranking lists ,no matter its actual ranking ,but, you do get the actual info still.

Example:

Who has the pointiest sticks

1. North Korea 205 (adjusted to 2,500)
2. England 1005
3. Ottomans 982
etc.....

Well since all resolutions by the UN can never be broken as of Civ 4 why don't we just create a sanction against nukes? They are a big threat, but the bigger threat is China. I know I sound very American but hear me out. North Korea's only semblance of an ally (China has condemned North Korea's actions recently but still) is China, and if we get in a war with NK China could possibly help them. Now, tbh, I do not fear nuclear war that much. The leaders of the nuclear countries are sane enough to not use their arsenal to take out enemies because they wouldn't survive either. Whether from retaliation or radiation. Also, America has an advanced enough system they can shoot down a few missiles shot by NK. I'm more worried about a conventional war with them. They do have the largest army and thus they can overrun nearby settlements in SK. Also, they made dozens of tunnels underground into South Korea in the 50's and such, many are still believed to not have been found yet.

As scary as some of its future prospects are : the "folklore" of NK is quite interesting.
The NK "news" always reports that they are constantly engaging and winning massive scale military campaigns , even though its obvious to everyone that : the boarder hasn't moved a centimeter since the 1950's. The tense "exercises" that actually happen hardly live up to boastful reports of glorious victories, then they show a badly dubbed Magnum P.I rerun , and shut of the entire nations power grid at 8 P.M sharp every evening.
I heard speculations that : Dennis Rodman may be , a mole for CIA/MI6

 

[CaterpillarKing]

Oh, ok, so....we were .... both right

This got me thinking about the civ. why not fix it so NK always appears at the top of the ranking lists ,no matter its actual ranking ,but, you do get the actual info still.

Example:

Who has the pointiest sticks

1. North Korea 205 (adjusted to 2,500)
2. England 1005
3. Ottomans 982
etc.....



As scary as some of its future prospects are : the "folklore" of NK is quite interesting.
The NK "news" always reports that they are constantly engaging and winning massive scale military campaigns , even though its obvious to everyone that : the boarder hasn't moved a centimeter since the 1950's. The tense "exercises" that actually happen hardly live up to boastful reports of glorious victories, then they show a badly dubbed Magnum P.I rerun , and shut of the entire nations power grid at 8 P.M sharp every evening.
I heard speculations that : Dennis Rodman may be , a mole for CIA/MI6

Interesting idea. And just because they can't run a country for crap doesn't mean they're military is crap. We were scared of the USSR for example, but to live there was awful.

 

[LoneRebel]

Well since all resolutions by the UN can never be broken as of Civ 4 why don't we just create a sanction against nukes? They are a big threat, but the bigger threat is China. I know I sound very American but hear me out. North Korea's only semblance of an ally (China has condemned North Korea's actions recently but still) is China, and if we get in a war with NK China could possibly help them. Now, tbh, I do not fear nuclear war that much. The leaders of the nuclear countries are sane enough to not use their arsenal to take out enemies because they wouldn't survive either. Whether from retaliation or radiation. Also, America has an advanced enough system they can shoot down a few missiles shot by NK. I'm more worried about a conventional war with them. They do have the largest army and thus they can overrun nearby settlements in SK. Also, they made dozens of tunnels underground into South Korea in the 50's and such, many are still believed to not have been found yet.

No need to be worried about speaking the truth, however unpalatable it may be to some.

The simple fact of the matter is that the Kims' regime would have collapsed long ago if it weren't for Chinese aid. China is propping this brutal regime up, for reasons best known to themselves. Sad.

 

[CaterpillarKing]

No need to be worried about speaking the truth, however unpalatable it may be to some.

The simple fact of the matter is that the Kims' regime would have collapsed long ago if it weren't for Chinese aid. China is propping this brutal regime up, for reasons best known to themselves. Sad.

Well without Russia's support in their early days they wouldn't exist. I also think it's terrible how no one seems to grasp the devastation of a nuclear weapon. One modern nuke can level a whole city. I feel like I'm the only one who can grasp the pure power of a thermonuclear weapon.

 

[forcedalt]

Well without Russia's support in their early days they wouldn't exist. I also think it's terrible how no one seems to grasp the devastation of a nuclear weapon. One modern nuke can level a whole city. I feel like I'm the only one who can grasp the pure power of a thermonuclear weapon.

It might actually be that : Your talking to strategy gamers. Not just Civ , but , a lot of grand strat/RTS games include nukes of some type , but don't actually scale their power realistically compared to the other conventional weapons. In Civ 5 you just have a guy squeegee the radiation off the ground ,and , its like it never happened. In Sim City 1 you can build thriving communities inside of recent nuke meltdown areas without issue. In AOD the ICBM doesn't reduce base populations or destroy units, it just messes up the roads a lot. In a lot of RTS's , whatever types of "nukes" they have in game cannot fully destroy simple gun turrets ,but , rather only weaken them considerably.

Also : there haven't been any actual events of anyone actually getting nuked ( thankfully) (luckily?)
Since 1945. Weird thing about that : i heard that the radiation from a nuke weapon pretty much makes an area uninhabitable pretty much forever ,yet , Hiroshima has been a dense thriving metropolis to this day , and reconstruction began a very short time after the attack (less than 5 years) , what up with that? Japan accidentally nuked itself rather recently , and , they are already talking about rebuilding in that area. Are Japanese people protected from radioactivity by strong ancestor spirits? Are they dealing with severe health problems from living in highly radiated areas , and just "toughing it out" , or what?

 

[CaterpillarKing]

It might actually be that : Your talking to strategy gamers. Not just Civ , but , a lot of grand strat/RTS games include nukes of some type , but don't actually scale their power realistically compared to the other conventional weapons. In Civ 5 you just have a guy squeegee the radiation off the ground ,and , its like it never happened. In Sim City 1 you can build thriving communities inside of recent nuke meltdown areas without issue. In AOD the ICBM doesn't reduce base populations or destroy units, it just messes up the roads a lot. In a lot of RTS's , whatever types of "nukes" they have in game cannot fully destroy simple gun turrets ,but , rather only weaken them considerably.

Not just gamers think this, but everyone does. They don't realize how terrible these things are. Hearing stories about Hiroshima and Nagasaki, plus seeing the pictures, It's quite terrifying. Also seeing the devastation of Hydrogen bombs being tested is enough to put some real fear in you. I do like how in civ V though one can destroy a city with nukes, actually destroy it.

 

[direblade99]

Well since all resolutions by the UN can never be broken as of Civ 4 why don't we just create a sanction against nukes? They are a big threat, but the bigger threat is China. I know I sound very American but hear me out. North Korea's only semblance of an ally (China has condemned North Korea's actions recently but still) is China, and if we get in a war with NK China could possibly help them. Now, tbh, I do not fear nuclear war that much. The leaders of the nuclear countries are sane enough to not use their arsenal to take out enemies because they wouldn't survive either. Whether from retaliation or radiation. Also, America has an advanced enough system they can shoot down a few missiles shot by NK. I'm more worried about a conventional war with them. They do have the largest army and thus they can overrun nearby settlements in SK. Also, they made dozens of tunnels underground into South Korea in the 50's and such, many are still believed to not have been found yet.

They have the largest army but last I heard they couldn't even afford weapons for all their troops.

 

[forcedalt]

They have the largest army but last I heard they couldn't even afford weapons for all their troops.

Not to contest the "largest army" claim ,however , you have to consider in NK , the regular army does routine policing. In other words : all the cops are considered part of the army ,as perhaps are some other government employees. If NK has an equivalent to JROTC , or , Boy Scouts® ,they are no doubt counting that as well.

Now : it was said the US ,has a standing army of 1.2 million ,and is historically criticized for keeping too large an army , so they wouldn't count every county sheriff, park ranger,wildlife officer,federal agent, or detective as part of its standing army to pad its number , even though all of the above DO have weapons ,but , if they did : do think the US could then get the pointiest stick award?

 

[Jampine]

They have the largest army but last I heard they couldn't even afford weapons for all their troops.

Yeah, according to Guy Delisle, during his stay in north Korea whilst working for an animation studio, he witnessed the driver of a military truck stopping, and getting out to crank it up to get the engine going again.

Also, I'm curious if Korea's standing army figures includes all the off duty soldiers: Most men in Korea have served in the army at some point, and are expected to rejoin instantly at the drop of a hat if something major goes down (This also applies during their week long nationwide training program)

 

[CaterpillarKing]

Well for being how small it is 4 million is a metric crapload of people.


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[LoneRebel]

Let us depart this wretched hive of reactionary oppression and ignorance, and forge a perfect society in the Alpha Centauri system.

Nah, we'd just repeat the same mistakes on another Planet.

 

[shaglio]

North Korea is a nightmare state where the ruling elite live in luxury and freely travel and study abroad, while the masses live in poverty and are never allowed to leave the country. The hilarious thing is that a few outsiders (especially those with leftist and anti-American tendencies perhaps ) actually seem to admire NK for some reason.

I was just thinking about the end of Serenity

Spoiler :

when Mal broadcasts the events that took place on Miranda throughout the 'Verse

and it got me to thinking: too bad the US couldn't get together a bunch of computer hackers to break through NK's countrywide firewall and spread the truth about the outside world to all the citizens. A "truthbomb" so-to-speak that would open up the peoples' eyes and push them to try to overthrow the regime. Probably just a pipedream.

 

[troublmaker]

The only reason China would at all help North Korea in a conflict is due to the possible refugee crisis if the state collapses. China wouldn't want thousands of refugees because logistics for that is a nightmare. "Ally" I feel is a strong term.

NK technology is 70s/80s military tech. I believe I read it in a journal but NK has totally missed out on MEMS technology. In addition, as everyone knows and the game does a decent job of it - trade routes research agreements and in general research cooperation is necessary for tech advancement.

North Korea's tech is early 80s. This gives them access to radar guided rockets on the ground and in their planes. What it doesn't give them access to is SEAD which have become more and more important.

Anyway, the major reason why China helps North Korea isn't the refugee problem, but the America problem. America has a base of operations in South Korea, one of their largest foreign deployments. If America was to declare war on China they would have to sweep through North Korea first (which has a massive army). After licking their wounds it would take far more for America to overcome the Red Dragon.

 

[lokithepunishr]

the american force in sk will withdraw within tye next few years, sk has made it clear (not publicly) that they hate the us presence in sk. soon sk will be on its own (bar us intervention) and will come to regret they made the us forces leave.

nk will still not have enough force to take sk though, having 4mil land military doesnt count when your opponents have planes, but nk will smack sk back about 20 years with their missiles, sk is just plane stupid for not accepting us support

 

[Kwami]

North Korea's tech is early 80s. This gives them access to radar guided rockets on the ground and in their planes. What it doesn't give them access to is SEAD which have become more and more important.

Anyway, the major reason why China helps North Korea isn't the refugee problem, but the America problem. America has a base of operations in South Korea, one of their largest foreign deployments. If America was to declare war on China they would have to sweep through North Korea first (which has a massive army). After licking their wounds it would take far more for America to overcome the Red Dragon.

Why would the US go through North Korea? What good would a land war in northeast China be? The US has China surrounded with air bases and ships. I seriously doubt that we'd be stupid enough to start another Korean war just to get to China.

The refugee problem makes a lot more sense.

 

[Kwami]

the american force in sk will withdraw within tye next few years, sk has made it clear (not publicly) that they hate the us presence in sk. soon sk will be on its own (bar us intervention) and will come to regret they made the us forces leave.

nk will still not have enough force to take sk though, having 4mil land military doesnt count when your opponents have planes, but nk will smack sk back about 20 years with their missiles, sk is just plane stupid for not accepting us support

This is all nonsense, too. South Korea is an ally of the US and the two nations perform military drills together multiple times every year, much to China and DPRK's displeasure. Don't for one minute think that the US is leaving SK any time soon.

 

[CaterpillarKing]

Why would the US go through North Korea? What good would a land war in northeast China be? The US has China surrounded with air bases and ships. I seriously doubt that we'd be stupid enough to start another Korean war just to get to China.

The refugee problem makes a lot more sense.

I highly doubt America will fight China. We are both too dependent on each other. Also there would be no good in it. It's not like we could occupy China. They are far too proud a people to be occupied and the average American wouldn't support a pointless war (Vietnam).

This is all nonsense, too. South Korea is an ally of the US and the two nations perform military drills together multiple times every year, much to China and DPRK's displeasure. Don't for one minute think that the US is leaving SK any time soon.

Yeah, South Korea and America are tightly knit. Without America there would be no South Korea.

 

[Magma_Dragoon]

I highly doubt America will fight China. We are both too dependent on each other. Also there would be no good in it. It's not like we could occupy China. They are far too proud a people to be occupied and the average American wouldn't support a pointless war (Vietnam).

Overestimating the average American is a very dangerous mistake. Are you aware of the state of our government? Half the people elected a party that is incompetent and pretends to represent their economic interests, and other half elected a party that is evil and undermines their own economic interests.