Lets talk about: Monarchy

[The Person]

As long as the monarch doesn't think he is something, I don't care.

 

[WickedSmurf]

Our line of kings and queens stretches back some 1000 years, we never bothered to revolt against them.

All the kings

 

[AVN]

BTW I believe monarchies are outdated, because these persons aren't chosen democratically.

I would be happy if we abolish the Dutch monarchy today.

 

[King Alexander]

BTW I believe monarchies are outdated, because these persons aren't chosen democratically.

I would be happy if we abolish the Dutch monarchy today.

That's the first time I hear that from a person coming from a Monarchy.

AVN, what is the role of your Monarchy today? I mean, it plays any role on your policy(esoteric or foreing)? Do you pay taxes to "live" the royal family?
Do your politicians take into consideration the opinion of the royal family, that is?

 

[MaisseArsouye]

That's the first time I hear that from a person coming from a Monarchy.

Belgium is a monarchy but there's a strong republican minority. The CRK is a republican assocation with some very famous members. Actually, most of the intellectuals are republican, but a lot of them don't make their "coming out" because they could have problems. And politicans I talked with ( including walloon ministers, deputies and even the President of the Walloon Parliament ) are quite all republican !!! But they can't declare it because the people loves the royal familly.

Quite every separatists are republican.

I am a republican, proud to be and I never hide it. I can't afford to live in a country where I can't be the head of state just because my father wasn't

 

[AVN]

That's the first time I hear that from a person coming from a Monarchy.

I belong to a minority, 80-90 % of the Dutch people do support our monarchy at the moment. So I can understand you are surprised.

AVN, what is the role of your Monarchy today? I mean, it plays any role on your policy(esoteric or foreing)?

The function of monarch is mainly representative, but he has some influence in the following :

- He has great influence on who becomes the next prime minister after elections.
- He is the president of the "Raad van State", an important advising counsel of the government, although in general he will not attend the meetings of the "Raad van State". So you can consider this a honorary title.
- He has a weekly meeting with the prime minister in which state matters are discussed. The contents/results of these meetings are confidential. This is something I really don't like.
- He represents our country during official foreign visits. Officially he can't give an opinion on all sorts of political issues, but I'm sure that during closed meetings all sorts of issues will be discussed.

Do you pay taxes to "live" the royal family?

I'm not paying a special tax, but the royal government get money from the government. IMO not extreme amounts, but they get paid for their jobs.

Do your politicians take into consideration the opinion of the royal family, that is?

In certain issues the opinion of the monarch has influenced decisions of the government (due to the weekly meeting with the prime minister). In most cases the real extent of this influence became available to the public after many years.

 

[Cimbri]

Our monarchy goes back a long way and Gorm the Old (died in the winter of 958-959) is recognized as the first King of Denmark. Though we had many kings before him, information on these chaps is scarce and unreliable at best.

We never really bothered our many rulers, hence from Gorm the Old, Denmark has an unbroken line of kings.

We did, however, have an emperor for a while.

Awesome!

 

[privatehudson]

We rebelled against our monarch a few hundred years ago and never bothered with a King again.

We did, however, have an emperor for a while.

No, you just elect people who are more related to kings than their opponents

 

[Stapel]

That's the first time I hear that from a person coming from a Monarchy.

AVN, what is the role of your Monarchy today? I mean, it plays any role on your policy(esoteric or foreing)? Do you pay taxes to "live" the royal family?
Do your politicians take into consideration the opinion of the royal family, that is?

We had a great discussion on this, 2 months ago. About 90% of the people in NL are in favour of the monarchy. Roughly divided in 3 equally sized parts: those who want more power for the monarch, those who think things are ok now, and those who think the monarchy is ok, but should have less power.

I am very strongly in favour of a situation where the monarch has more power, and I do have seriously overthought reasons for this, as I have explained before.
Basically, I do believe one non democratically chosen member in the government can and should be a great incentive for a government that acts independent from parliament. Of course, the final power will always be in the hands of the 100% democratically chosen parliament.

If it were up to me, our monarch would set-up the complete government, in order to avoid 'government agreements' that seriously disturb the democratic process. I know this is a great paradox: a non-chosen person as the keeper of democracy.
But today, our coalition system does make it possible that laws with only a 6% support from the people are pushed through.
In itself this idea has support from many Dutch republicans, but they would say an independent government could also be formed by a 'council of wisemen'. I can't think of a situation where such a council is truely independent from the political parties, thus I think a monarch is the one and only option it achieve this.

 

[King Alexander]

I belong to a minority, 80-90 % of the Dutch people do support our monarchy at the moment. So I can understand you are surprised.

You're not alone: I also belong tp a minority not only in my country, but in the world you could say!

- He has great influence on who becomes the next prime minister after elections.

I don't understand this: "after elections"??? But, after the elections, the results are already there and no one can do anything to manipulate them(oh well, I've seen that many times, worldwide! - I'm not reffering to the Netherlands, as I'm still waiting for an answer).

IMO not extreme amounts, but they get paid for their jobs.

What is their job? Horseback Riding(to be Civ-specific) and Yachting? - other than discussing "things" in *closed-for-public* rooms, that is.

 

[Sweeney Todd]

Ireland was ruled by an English monarch for about 800 years thanks to this man

http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=30506&tocid=0&query=richard%20fitzgilbert%2C%202nd%20earl%20of%20pembroke

Edit: I shagged that up! Can anyone explain how I can display a link in the form of a single clickable word?

 

[AVN]

You're not alone: I also belong tp a minority not only in my country, but in the world you could say!

Just out of curiousity, to which minority do you belong ?

I don't understand this: "after elections"??? But, after the elections, the results are already there and no one can do anything to manipulate them(oh well, I've seen that many times, worldwide! - I'm not reffering to the Netherlands, as I'm still waiting for an answer).

After elections it's often possible to create a government which has a majority in parliament in several ways. It can be christan-democrats with liberals, christan-democrats with social-democrats or social-democrats with liberals. The monarch will decide which option will be investigated first and therefore has a great influence who will become the prime minister.

Of course the choices for the monarch are limited if certain combinations don't have a majority, but in general he has some choices available.

What is their job? Horseback Riding(to be Civ-specific) and Yachting? - other than discussing "things" in *closed-for-public* rooms, that is.

He is representing the country. I guess that the functions of the Dutch monarch can be compared with the functions of the German president. The only difference is that he is elected democratically.

 

[King Alexander]

Just out of curiousity, to which minority do you belong ?

I'm a rare spiecie: an intergalactic-exploring canarin, with a philosophical approach to known and unknown mysteries

back to topic:

The monarch will decide which option will be investigated first and therefore has a great influence who will become the prime minister.

So, the monarch does indeed play a major role in deciding the prime minister each time, and, therefore, the politicians should keep a good relationship with the monarch - if they ever hope to be prime ministers!

 

[AVN]

Ireland was ruled by an English monarch for about 800 years thanks to this man

http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=30506&tocid=0&query=richard%20fitzgilbert%2C%202nd%20earl%20of%20pembroke

Edit: I shagged that up! Can anyone explain how I can display a link in the form of a single clickable word?

I have sent you a private message (because it's off-topic) how you can do that.

 

[Stapel]

So, the monarch does indeed play a major role in deciding the prime minister each time, and, therefore, the politicians should keep a good relationship with the monarch - if they ever hope to be prime ministers!

I'd like to mention our 1994 coalition.
For the first time ever, NL got a coalition without the Christian Democrats. This meant that the traditional foes, the fiscally rightwing Liberals and the fiscally leftwing Social Democrates had to cooperate. The third party in this coalition, D66 (centre party), was the great driving force behind this idea.
D66 is anti-monarchist and so was its 1994 leader (and founder).

At first, they did not succeed in a worked-out cooperation. The negotiations had failed. Queen Beatrix more or less forced the traditional foes to re-open negotiations. Though Wim Kok, Hans van Mierlo and Frits Bolkesteijn all had crucial influences in the process, it should not be unmentioned that this 'purple' coalition probably never would have come there, without Beatrix' influence.

I think that keeping the party with the most hardcore royalists (CDA) out of the government, and forcing in a republican party, pretty much shows that a monarchy actually does work!

A small note: Though the monarch influences the coalition process, the prime ministers, almost by definition (or tradition?) is delivered by the biggest coalition partner.

 

[stormbind]

monarchy is fun, not only because i get 3 military police in every city, but bcause the Queen appoints a Govenor General who has powers to call a double dissolution and disolve the senate if the pollies are being naughty. Thats why monachy is good (side node welive in a constitutional monarchy, there hasnt been true monachy in England, or colonies scince magna carta was written, or at least thats what im told)

It depends how you define true monarch.

England has not had an Absolute Monarch since 1215, but it had an Executive Monarch, before adopting the concept of a Constitutional Monarch.

Some people compare the Magna Carta (or Great Charter) to the US Constitution, and Bill of Rights. It is the beginnings of the Unwritten Constitution.

However, had the Magna Carta have been like the US Constitution, it could never have continued to evolve so freely; the only part that has not been repealed or superseded are the introductory sentences!

I think, but as I'm no historian I cannot be sure, the first version of the Magna Carta was written in 1215 under King John, and did make him the last Absolute Monarch. It was imposed on him because he had abused his position. Much of the Magna Carta was rewritten by Henry I.

Parliament continued to wrestle with their Executive Monarch's influence until the 17th Century when Oliver Cromwell (a minister of Parliament) kicked everyone out of power in the English Civil War: He had the King's head removed, and dissolved Parliament!

An early version of the Magna Carta, on display in Washington DC..

 

[MaisseArsouye]

In Belgium, the system is pretty much like in the Netherlands.

No political party has a majority. It is due to several reasons :
- parties are not national but regional. There's no "belgian socialist party" but the PS ( walloon ) and SPa ( flemish )
- we have a proportionnal system so that there are 4 main parties in Wallonia and 5 in Flanders.
The most powerfull flemish party can get 25% in Flanders ( 60% of belgians ) ->15%
the most powerfull walloon party ( PS ) has about 35% of Wallonia ( 40% belgians ) -> 14%
Most of the time, we need 4 parties ( two flemishs, two walloons ) to make a government. Sometimes we need 6 !!!

I made as Brussels doesn't exist because it's a bilingual city-region and it would make my explanations much too complicated

And we also have to make our regional governments with different results at the elections. So the situation is very complicated

And the king ? After the elections, he chooses a "formateur" ( don't know any good translation ) in a winning party. And that man has to lead negociations to make a government. Very often, if he succeeds, he becomes Prime Minister The power of the king is that he can decide who may be prime Minister and who may not...

 

[Verbose]

Our line of kings and queens stretches back some 1000 years, we never bothered to revolt against them.

All the kings

What do you mean? There have been rebellions aplenty! Usually they were put down with extreme prejudice. (Hang, draw, quarter and nail the putrifying remains to the church doors of the parish to make the rest of the populace take heed that a Prince does not wield his sword in wain - kind of thing.)
The last popular, peasant uprising was in 1743, when the people in Dalecarlia (Dalarna) walked to Stockholm to dictate policy to the king. Ended in a massacre in central Stockholm.
On the other hand in 1753 the parliament crushed the court faction and made the king obsolete by replacing his signature with a stamp.
The royals made a come back through the coup d'état of Gustaf III who reintroduced royal absolutism, which was chucked out through a new coup d'état in 1809 against his son Gustav VI Adolf after the loss of Finland to Russia.
Since 1809 Sweden has had a liberal constitution. The king has gradually been reduced to a mere figure head though constitutional reform. The last vestiges of any real power disappeard in 1974. The real difference came in 1918 with universal suffrage (for men, 1921 for women). The present king of Sweden is an idiot (stupid royals are good for democracy) and the royals are popular, but politically clueless.

 

[WickedSmurf]

@Verbose

No rebellion to the point where monarchy all-in-all was totally abolished was what I meant, obviously. Okay, obviously not that obvious.

 

[Verbose]

@Verbose

No rebellion to the point where monarchy all-in-all was totally abolished was what I meant, obviously. Okay, obviously not that obvious.

Right! Personally I think it would have been interesting if the murder of Gustaf III in 1792 had started a republican revolution. (Vive la République!)