Let's talk about opening moves

Encampments > IZ.
Encampment buildings give production, housing, and free defense. I'm holding that over IZ adjacency bonuses, which is really all they have going for them until factories.

So, screw rushing apprenticeship. It's not very important.
 
Apprenticeship for me is important for a whole other reason: it gives mines +1 production. That's when mines begin to shine.

Industrialization add +1 production on top of that, so I figure both are quite important for other reasons than IZs or Factories (though the Factory bonus is still really good to have)
 
Apprenticeship for me is important for a whole other reason: it gives mines +1 production. That's when mines begin to shine.

Industrialization add +1 production on top of that, so I figure both are quite important for other reasons than IZs or Factories (though the Factory bonus is still really good to have)
Ah, overlooked that. Yes, that's pretty important.
 
I play diety vs ai and mess around lower for MP testing. I have a lot of hours for what its worth and generally win.

I 99% of the time start scout, and 75% of the time go a 2nd scout. Say what you will about their drawbacks...
I'd like to know what happens when the Barbarian Horsemen come calling, or you find one of the aggressive Civs nearby. The earliest I've been attacked is before my third slinger was built. As the little barbarian said to the big barbarian, "Dad, that Emperor's got no clothes!"

Still, at least your Scouts might be reincarnated as Builders for Monty, I suppose. So it's not all bad.
 
Theocracy is viable too if I have strong faith and want to go Domination/Religion. Later civics often depends on the victory in mind, though I want a tier 3 government fast too.
I don't go much on religion myself, but my conquered cities usually do, so I take at least a few turns of Theocracy to buy some free units. Very handy.
 
You're on the right track, but not 100% on it imo. For one, I don't think you strictly need to beeline Currency or Apprenticeship against all other priorities. Currency is great, but you don't really need it until you start building districts, which for me doesn't come until after building up my army and conquering a bit. Still an early priority, but there are plenty of techs besides mining you might grab along the way.

As for Apprenticeship, IZs are a lot less vital since the patch. Like Currency, you still want it, but not at the expense of every other tech, and in this case it's not even my top pick of the era. That would be Machinery, which unlocks crossbows and lumber mills. Those are great for many reasons, but here's two: for one, river lumber mills are some of the best tiles in the game, for another, they help boost production in cities that don't have hills.

As for districts, for me it's usually commercial + whatever my victory district is, eg theater for culture. Industrial and Entertainment as necessary to cover your empire, with a couple good campuses for any VC.

Another consideration whether or not to beeline Currency/Apprenticeship is access to Great Person points. I have found Great Merchants and Great Engineers to be the strongest Great People in the game.

For Classical Great Merchants:

Zhang Qian provides an extra trade route capacity
Colaeus grants you a luxury. Or if you save him, he gives you an interface to easily view all the luxuries on the map.
Marcus Licinius Crassus gives you a small amount of gold but can indirectly save you a lot of gold by obtaining expensive city tiles for you. Alternatively, he is currently the only way in the game to actively obtain tiles that are greater than 3 tiles away from your city center.

For Medieval Great Engineers:

Isidore of Miletus provides production. He can either rush wonders (always useful), or the production can be converted into hammers for other things (like districts or projects) by using overflow. Build a wonder to within 1 turn of completion, then use Isidore (or Brunelleschi or Eiffel) to finish it and get overflow production.

Bi Sheng allows you to build an extra district. This ability is only okay. Sometimes it can be particularly good to ensure you get both a Commercial and Industrial district in your capital early. It is best used with a city that has the Oracle since you maximize your Great Person points. The Eureka to Printing isn't that great, but sometimes it can net you some envoys due to CS quests.

James of St George isn't so great. In many games, it's not worth it to build walls. Walls don't seem to have long-term value, especially once you get Civil Engineering. Not to mention you will be paying for maintenance all that time. The one advantage to James of St George is that since Great People can instantly teleport between cities, it means you don't have to build *any* walls. And then if a city does get attacked and you think you need walls, teleport James there and have him magically create walls. But he is definitely my least favorite of the Medieval Engineers.

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If you want multiple Classical Merchants or Medieval Engineers, you probably need to rush Currency or Apprenticeship to start building those districts early.

The problem isn't so much the competition. The AI tends to be slow in building Commercial and Industrial districts, though Kongo can give you a run when it comes to Great Merchants. The problem is if too many AI's reach the Classical or Medieval era, the new Great People will be from the following era.
 
You guys who start off building not one, but two, non-military (Scouts and/or Builders) units; what level are you playing? At harder difficulties I've found that there's a good chance you'll be swamped by Barbarians or even the AI (if there close) if you don't have an early army.
On Deity - You can usually get away with building a scout as long as you build your army next. It's handy to find another civ, a second continent, and 3 city states. The scout is useful for finding goodie huts and fog busting so you can see barb camps.

I end up buying a builder when there are boosts waiting for tile improvements. Have to be careful about not having money to up grade slingers to archers when you need them.
 
I end up buying a builder when there are boosts waiting for tile improvements. Have to be careful about not having money to up grade slingers to archers when you need them.

An important point actually, and maybe all that I can add to a great thread. Use your gold! It's not something that happens the same every game because there are so many factors in your start location, but my tip is, decide early what your first gold purchase is going to be, and then make sure you're watching your balance every turn so you can make that purchase the moment it's available.

Nothing worse than thinking "ooh I'll buy a builder, oh wait, I could've done that two turns ago".
 
I always start with builder unless there is nothing to improve at start. Then 3x slinger. Playing deity only. After singers it depends on lay of land.

It's actually not that terrible if you get alerted by a barb camp early on. You will get some easy kills and get guaranteed bronze working boost. That might time things nicely so you know where to place a city for iron and get early swordsmen.

Barb camps become way more dangerous once you have like 4 to 5 cities and are waging war with neighbors but don't yet have walls up.
 
I always start with builder unless there is nothing to improve at start. Then 3x slinger. Playing deity only. After singers it depends on lay of land.

It's actually not that terrible if you get alerted by a barb camp early on. You will get some easy kills and get guaranteed bronze working boost. That might time things nicely so you know where to place a city for iron and get early swordsmen.

Barb camps become way more dangerous once you have like 4 to 5 cities and are waging war with neighbors but don't yet have walls up.

I feel that there are two main dangers from barbarians.

Biggest threat by far is to trade routes. It is hard to monitor your trade routes constantly and barbarians actually prioritize attacking them.

Second is to district, mainly because a pillaged district is such a pain to repair. However, it is easier to defend your own cities as opposed to traders who wander all over the place.
 
I feel that there are two main dangers from barbarians.

Biggest threat by far is to trade routes. It is hard to monitor your trade routes constantly and barbarians actually prioritize attacking them.

Second is to district, mainly because a pillaged district is such a pain to repair. However, it is easier to defend your own cities as opposed to traders who wander all over the place.

This is true... especially as scouts plunder trade routes. I find it's normally on the first trader's second route - the first one between cap and first expo is well-guarded, but when I switch it to help out a new city further away and the army is off conquering elsewhere a scout will appear from the fog just as the trader is halfway between cities.

The other pain from barbs is when they manage to kill a unit or 2.

They're great when they tie up an opponent's reinforcements though, or do some suicide charges at the walls you're attacking.

Funnily enough I've never had barbs capture an unescorted settler, and I take that risk all the time. It feels like scouts don't attack settlers or builders?
 
I always start with builder unless there is nothing to improve at start. Then 3x slinger. Playing deity only. After singers it depends on lay of land.

I prefer a scout start and time the worker to coincide with reaching 50% of craftsmanship (- turns required to improve 3 tiles). A slinger to add to your starting warrior is usually enough to survive even a barb horseman rush provide you are canny with fighting them. Barbs are more of a threat once you have tiles to pillage.
 
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It's different if you start as Rome or with culture yields I think. You need 40 culture to finish Code of Laws and half of Craftmanship - with Rome's free monument you can get there around turn 12 or 13. So it makes sense to start with an early builder if there are 3 improvable tiles - you can then build your slingers almost entirely with the 50% card. There's a bit of risk to this and it would be safer to go slinger - builder - slinger - slinger, with the bonus production kicking in during the second slinger. You get maybe 1-2 units 33% cheaper and yields from improvements for a dozen turns or so, maybe 2 units worth for a bit of risk / exploration cost.

With everyone else (?) it takes much longer to get Craftmanship so there's less cost to delaying the builder - you miss the improvement yields but not the 50% production bonus on those early few units.

Does that line up with other people's game style? I played as Rome almost exclusively when I started and went builder (or scout builder) and Craftmanship first, even trying settlers and traders before slingers... but now with other civs it seems to take forever to get to Craftmanship and the army can't wait that long.
 
Another thing: Is it me or do the Congo and Roman UUs not get a chance to shine in Emperor and above? You pretty much don't need swordsmen at all, all you need is a kajillion archers and 1 or 2 warriors... by the time you can make another push (possibly with crossbowmen) the time for swordsmen to shine has passed.
 
Another thing: Is it me or do the Congo and Roman UUs not get a chance to shine in Emperor and above? You pretty much don't need swordsmen at all, all you need is a kajillion archers and 1 or 2 warriors... by the time you can make another push (possibly with crossbowmen) the time for swordsmen to shine has passed.
It's true that Swordsmen are underwhelming and I haven't tried either Civ yet, but can you not beeline them to make them relevant?
 
I think the Legion shines on Deity. Rome can get Oligarchy and Iron working fast, and I only have taken 1-2 cities by then realistically. I usually build 2-3 warriors along with archers so I prioritize the upgraded warriors for promotion. So the 2-3 Legions lead the next wave of city taking with their stout melee defense and offensive prowess. They hold up against crossbow men and can defend against Knights fortified in a Roman fort. I find them to be a top 3 UU when factoring timing, strength, and utility.

Kongo's Swordsmen aren't as good, but the mobility and ranged defense are still really good. Plus the lack of Iron requirement makes their swords men rush more viable, as it's still quicker on average. Maybe not something to go all in on every game, but a decent option nevertheless.
 
It's true that Swordsmen are underwhelming and I haven't tried either Civ yet, but can you not beeline them to make them relevant?

You can make use of them but it doesn't seem to provide much utility over pure archer spam plus some warriors since archers do all the heavy lifting anyway.
 
One of the big things I like about Civ6 is that the units feel a lot more balanced than in Civ 5. Cavalry units are very useful, and swordsmen can be pretty great too. Depending on how far you want to go with them, they're either going to be frontline troops for your archers, or actively taking cities with the help of support units.

They're especially great units for Rome & Kongo, due to the UUs. The lack of a resource requirement is a big bonus there, as it's going to be tricky for other civs to get iron units out early on in most games.
 
Interesting stuff, typically on deity I'll go with two scouts, for those goody huts, 1st envoy & compulsory settler stealing. Then builder to finish craftsmanship for the 50% off army sale usually in time for either barbs or ai rush.
 
The swordsmen of Kongo and Rome are exceptional. Exceptional enough to be worth using. Though not exceptional enough to be stronger then any mounted UU at that era.

In general though I disagree about the unit balance pretty strongly. Melee units are inferior to ranged and horses by a pretty large margin. The time it takes just to get these units into position is enough to squash their balance, but they additionally have no real advantage over horses either. In previous iterations it used to be that horse units lacked defensive strength, but in civ 6 mounted units behave just like melee units, with a massive movement bonus as a bonus.

Of the units, the weakest, by far, are the anti-cav units. By their design they appear to be cheap anti-cav units, which is great and all, except that they aren't actually cheap. It's more expensive to make a pikeman then a knight, and the knight is straight up better. That's pretty sad.
 
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