Let's talk about opening moves

[Victoria]

Yup but not for the reason you have said. I have beelined theatre districts a few times when I had a strong prod start and got Oracle.

Campusus get a lot more science per pop than culture does. The trouble is theatre district adjacency is not the greatest but If you can get a great writer or 2 early, or more importantly, be able to house great works from another player you have a fast culture path. This is more important to England as early archaeology is a huge boost. For most other culture victory players (apart from reliquary ones) the computers burst is the main multiplier.

To me political philosophy is delayed a few turns amd in return you get a better boost toward feudalism which to me is the main beeline. However some may have times they want to beeline mercenaries for the cheap upgrades of crossbowman and knights

 

[The Highwayman]

Is it ever worth it to go for drama before political philosophy (say, with Japan if you are planning to (ab)use the Meiji restoration bonuses)?

Is it ever worth it to not go straight from political philosophy to feudalism?

I would say no and no. This is still the expansion/takeover phase of the game for all Civs and getting the tier 1 governments is huge. I still don't have the pop to build the Theater District at this point anywhere anyways. Feudalism is big for empire building, +2 builder charges, +food for farms, prerequisite for Professional Army policy card civic, etc. Political Philosophy and Feudalism are milestones on the civics tree and I don't see an advantage to delaying them.

 

[Quillan]

Is it ever worth it to go for drama before political philosophy (say, with Japan if you are planning to (ab)use the Meiji restoration bonuses)?

Is it ever worth it to not go straight from political philosophy to feudalism?

it depends to be honest, pol phi is probably only worth delaying it if you're messing with eurekas and will quickly recover ---- the first 3 govs so much better than chief.

as for feudalism, for sure. it really depends on your situation and that eurekas are half a tech/civic so sometimes it can take a few turns longer to hit them overall but you'll research a lot more in that time than just one tech/civic.

 

[Forbiddentwo]

@ People who make two scouts right off the bat on Emperor and above (I'm starting to poke my head into Immortal difficulty now): I tried it and it seems to work out alright since I can send my warrior to rush over and stomp on any camps that are in a position to be a threat to me, making scouts early seems to throw off my timing. When and where do you build your actual army?

Am I correct in assuming that you still try for the archery eureka and transition into spamming archers? Do you bother with slingers? When/if you begin settler spam, what do you build at your expansions? Do you go worker -> archer -> archer?

 

[greygamer]

I am beginning to come around to a 2 scout opening, when I am not under early threats from barbs or an AI. You get to search in opposite directions which can lead to nice CS bonuses that make up for the early cost.

Also they can very quickly put a city under siege, should you get 3 promotions then you can have a pretty tough unit, I usually use a scout for the capture when practical

 

[diamond geezer]

I am beginning to come around to a 2 scout opening, when I am not under early threats from barbs or an AI.

The only way you can know that, as far as I can see, is if you run the game a few turns and then start again. In such circumstances then Scouts may be a very good start. Otherwise you start building a scout, discover Monty on your doorstep - and then what?

 

[greygamer]

The only way you can know that, as far as I can see, is if you run the game a few turns and then start again. In such circumstances then Scouts may be a very good start. Otherwise you start building a scout, discover Monty on your doorstep - and then what?

I open with a scout, if Monty is on my doorstep I will know by then and can switch to military builds. I don't do reloads, to me that's an exploit,
So I'll switch to military if I face a barb or AI rush as the situation develops.

 

[Quillan]

@ People who make two scouts right off the bat on Emperor and above (I'm starting to poke my head into Immortal difficulty now): I tried it and it seems to work out alright since I can send my warrior to rush over and stomp on any camps that are in a position to be a threat to me, making scouts early seems to throw off my timing. When and where do you build your actual army?

Am I correct in assuming that you still try for the archery eureka and transition into spamming archers? Do you bother with slingers? When/if you begin settler spam, what do you build at your expansions? Do you go worker -> archer -> archer?

Really it is all relative to what you find. One game you're in between aggressive civs and you have to war, the next you're isolated and its already gg. I have games that I win on diety that I dont build archers --- I remember recently wondering why I couldn't upgrade a slinger to xbow and it was because I didn't have the tech for archery (I didn't realize it was needed till then, I thought you could leap the techs).

I build my actual army when I have to. I will put off going for a slinger until I have to and wont build it unless I need it. I think this 'settler spam' idea is passe - I almost always build a settler or two before I am done early empire (unless under threat of course) and so dont hit the moment when my one city just spams settlers for awhile. That said, what I build will depend on what the terrain is. Again, assuming no war threat I will often build a monument or in 2/3 of my last games my second city went straight campus. I also find myself buying a builder in my first expansion sometimes as well --- i hate building builders in low prod cities, takes forever.

I think its important to mention again that this is only on diety. If you're playing lower then you have as much time as you need to get organized. On diety the ai is so far ahead that getting a second city out asap is a hugely important goal. I've started messing around with recording games and will try to get some up but a recent game where I went random and ended up with france, locked in by germany and kongo I had no choice but to war early. Here is a good example of life sucking... no cs, close neighbours, close barb camp spawning horses... I had to build swordsmen!!! I hate them, almost never build them but what are you gonna do? One more point on the scouts first is that this france game was a perfect example of epic scout fail. Only one cs that I didn't meet first on our continent. I'll see about getting it posted so you can hear some cursing and thought process but i've added some screen captures:

I still rushed a settler asap, then went military, conquered a city, stole a settler, and then put kongo to the sword. Germany held tight and I haven't broken him. Yet.

This was a tough slog and I haven't played it out to the end yet (currently just turn 151, a tiny bit behind in science per turn solid 2nd in culture, just getting to the boring slog that is winning the game from here). From here I'll just sim and field a naval force to take down cities of competitors overseas.

Anyways, sorry if the pics are uncool, but I thought it would illustrate what I was saying.

 

[ProphetMaster]

Opening moves depend on what leader you are playing. I play Gilgamesh. At any level from Immortal or less, you just build an army of warcarts and take over the continent. That does not work so well at Deity. You can take one or two cities but then have to remobilize. At least, that has been my experience. Also, at Deity, you have to make your move in the Ancient era very quickly, or you have no chance of ever catching up to them. I have learned that -- even at Deity-- the AI does NOT escort settlers. I have several times been able to steal settlers. Of course, this starts a war, but you will never be in a better position than right after to steal their settler. It is a net "plus 2" in settlements (they lose one, and you gain one). I did this with Rome in my current game. We slugged it out for awhile, but he offered peace and I was able to keep the settlement.

 

[diamond geezer]

At Deity you pretty much have to go to war early, given the start the AI has on you. I can see that going a Scout for your first unit might work a lot of the time, but I look at the game above and wonder what might have happened if the Barbarian camp wasn't so handily near and it had been Monty/Gil/Tom to the SW, rather than Mvemba handily in the direction the scout started...

 

[greygamer]

At Deity you pretty much have to go to war early, given the start the AI has on you. I can see that going a Scout for your first unit might work a lot of the time, but I look at the game above and wonder what might have happened if the Barbarian camp wasn't so handily near and it had been Monty/Gil/Tom to the SW, rather than Mvemba handily in the direction the scout started...

I'll set-up some deity starts with a 2 scout build order to see how often it brings disaster but I suspect you are picking worst case scenarios as opposed to likely scenarios.
What would make a better test pangea or continents? For my tests I like to use France as they have no advantages in the early game.

@ ProphetMaster I thought they had fixed this? I did snag an American settler with a scout on my first deity test, for some reason he had a warrior on the other side of the river

 

[Forbiddentwo]

I'll set-up some deity starts with a 2 scout build order to see how often it brings disaster but I suspect you are picking worst case scenarios as opposed to likely scenarios.
What would make a better test pangea or continents? For my tests I like to use France as they have no advantages in the early game.

@ ProphetMaster I thought they had fixed this? I did snag an American settler with a scout on my first deity test, for some reason he had a warrior on the other side of the river

It's sort of fixed. Sometimes they'll still leave settlers unescorted.

 

[joncnunn]

It's sort of fixed. Sometimes they'll still leave settlers unescorted.

It appears that if there is a unit present with the settler, the AI will link them.
However, this doesn't do anything about the edge case that AI extra settlers on higher difficulty levels don't start on the same tile as any of the AI extra military units and so those aren't escorted.

 

[diamond geezer]

I'll set-up some deity starts with a 2 scout build order to see how often it brings disaster but I suspect you are picking worst case scenarios as opposed to likely scenarios.
What would make a better test pangea or continents? For my tests I like to use France as they have no advantages in the early game.

Probably Pangea as Continents seems to get only 2 civs on one of them a lot of the time. I always play (at the moment) on the default size.

I may be picking worse case scenarios, I seem to have got quite a lot of them on my starts!

IMO 2 Scouts would work either if you had nothing nasty near, or you catch what's nasty early enough to abort the second and build troops instead. I would agree that if your scouts survive and you don't get attacked too early you most likely will get a better start. Maybe that will happen 50% of the time. Maybe only 10% of the time you get hit badly by ignoring troops. Does that make it a better start? I guess it depends on your viewpoint...

 

[Quillan]

I like the idea of doing samples but its got to be a fair # to have meaning. Part of the disagreement is that people are focused on their own personal stories of sorrow and success rather than the average or expected payoffs of different strategies. If you NEVER scout scout how can you say anything about it other than 'i dont know'? Ditto for never opening multi slinger etc.

Regarding my france game discussed above I dont think it mattered as much who spawned there as they were already at war with germany and a more aggressive civ probably would have been as well but I can't reload the game with diff civs to check so we'll never know

 

[MyOtherName]

I'll set-up some deity starts with a 2 scout build order to see how often it brings disaster but I suspect you are picking worst case scenarios as opposed to likely scenarios.

Making unsound opening moves that secure an advantage if you don't get the bad result is a form of start scumming -- it's in the same category of things as regenerating a map if you don't like the terrain or quitting and starting over if you don't like your neighbors and such.

There are a number of people that don't like to scum.

 

[Forbiddentwo]

Making unsound opening moves that secure an advantage if you don't get the bad result is a form of start scumming -- it's in the same category of things as regenerating a map if you don't like the terrain or quitting and starting over if you don't like your neighbors and such.

There are a number of people that don't like to scum.

But... but... Tundra sucks so bad .

 

[KmDubya]

But... but... Tundra sucks so bad .

Tundra is just a challenge. Plus you know what direction to expand towards and where the enemy will come from.

I find coming back from a poor starting location with a random civ to be quite enjoyable. If the land is truly terrible you need to either go horde and walk to a better place or go conquer someone with better land quickly.

Only playing on beautiful starting positions would seem pretty dull to me but YMMV.

 

[greygamer]

Making unsound opening moves that secure an advantage if you don't get the bad result is a form of start scumming -- it's in the same category of things as regenerating a map if you don't like the terrain or quitting and starting over if you don't like your neighbors and such.

There are a number of people that don't like to scum.

Erm... no it's not as I use it to test out strategies, save scumming is reloading a game whenever you get an unfavourable result. In this case to test how viable a 2 scout start is, it's unlikely I will complete any of these starts.

As regards save scumming it's a personal choice people can play a single player game anyway they want.

Probably Pangea as Continents seems to get only 2 civs on one of them a lot of the time. I always play (at the moment) on the default size.

I may be picking worse case scenarios, I seem to have got quite a lot of them on my starts!

IMO 2 Scouts would work either if you had nothing nasty near, or you catch what's nasty early enough to abort the second and build troops instead. I would agree that if your scouts survive and you don't get attacked too early you most likely will get a better start. Maybe that will happen 50% of the time. Maybe only 10% of the time you get hit badly by ignoring troops. Does that make it a better start? I guess it depends on your viewpoint...

I sympathise with those starts, I often seem to lack horses/iron nearby on mine, except China which has no start bias and I got stone and horses on 3 out of 4 starts when I was testing wonder building on them.
The 10% fail rate is an interesting point, should a player expect to be able to win every game? If you are playing a game where you can just re-start without the loss of lengthy play times then a high loss percentage might be okay, provided the game experience is enjoyable. Currently I feel that if you really focus on winning you can probably win 100% but it is not fun after you get into the lead.

My tests so far let me complete 2 scouts in 12 turns (I focus on early growth to get to 3-4 pop early on) then get a slinger then a worker. By that point I have usually unlocked Agoge which means a slinger every 2-3 turns so the military can be built quickly. Of course if there are horses then you get the horse barbs and I have had games where I was under siege from waves of barbs from 3 camps in the first 50 turns. So it comes down to holding out for 25 turns I suppose.

 

[MyOtherName]

Erm... no it's not as I use it to test out strategies, save scumming is reloading a game whenever you get an unfavourable result. In this case to test how viable a 2 scout start is, it's unlikely I will complete any of these starts.

As regards save scumming it's a personal choice people can play a single player game anyway they want.

And start scumming is starting a new game whenever you get an unfavorable start.

I wasn't commenting testing out strategies, I was commenting on criticizing people for worrying about the bad outcomes of an opening strategy.