Let's talk about opening moves

[Frostburn]

Never. I wait for one to pop from a hut, and if it doesn't, I just let the army scout. I'm underwhelmed by Scouts in Civ6.

yea Im disappointed by how weak scouts are in VI

I want to see a Native American civ with a badass unique scout unit in the ancient era.

 

[PendragonWRB]

Scouts serve important purposes for my games. Once they get the upgrades, they cover land very fast. Having a few stationed around the perimeter keeps the barb camps from spawning, and that is huge as they spawn like crazy and fighting a many front war is just to painful with the movement rules. I think of them as cheap mobile sentry towers (which I wish they would bring back).

 

[diamond geezer]

I see Barbarians as promotion factories; at least once I have my 3 Archers.

 

[Noblebenj]

Killer double scout opener!

 

[gimper42]

Painful trying to watch that. How many times do you need to open the civics tree before you've researched Code of Laws?

 

[Esperr]

I always open 1 scout, 2 depending on map size. Eureka on Poly phi is to important, plus finding closest neighbor ASAP is probably the most important thing in the game. You also need them to swipe workers and sometimes settlers, plus an occasional free pantheon is nice. Play on Deity-Immortal for the record.

In MP I just want them to worker snipe.

 

[Noblebenj]

Painful trying to watch that. How many times do you need to open the civics tree before you've researched Code of Laws?

Jeez tough crowd lol, the dude looks at the civic tree ONCE in 20mins!

I thought it was a good example of the benefits of the double opener, that we've been discussing. There's also a good opener video by 'filthyrobot' that I'm trying to find...

 

[c4c6]

Good example of the benefits of the double Scout opener. Though maybe I would have preferred to settle 1 tile northeast on the floodplain across the river. (Production in capital is initially weak, but pop growth to the first limits is very fast and settler as 3. unit towards city near spices for production of military units + even more settlers from the capital probable ...)

Scouts also should be moved EFFICIENTLY.

 

[Victoria]

Well said @c4c6 ... Scouts you need to use well watching the terrain, if clearly going down toward jungle then a tree promotion is wanted. Finding desert or grassland means fast often, plains means mountains amd hill more prevalent, it all need scouting but I try and stay fast grabbing hut, cs, wonder XP where I can ( even sometimes using scout xp card!) and I always now go for a double level 1 promotion to keep them fast. It seems rare they survive till rangers unless I treat them like anti barb spawning pets.

Unless going toward snow I will always take tree promo first, seems more useful.

I tend to use 1 and a barb and often get another in a hut, two often leaves me with 3-4 which is too much and that starting time is important. Yes one video can show a lot of benefit but you can have bad scouting occur as well.

 

[greygamer]

Well said @c4c6 ... Scouts you need to use well watching the terrain, if clearly going down toward jungle then a tree promotion is wanted. Finding desert or grassland means fast often, plains means mountains amd hill more prevalent, it all need scouting but I try and stay fast grabbing hut, cs, wonder XP where I can ( even sometimes using scout xp card!) and I always now go for a double level 1 promotion to keep them fast. It seems rare they survive till rangers unless I treat them like anti barb spawning pets.

Unless going toward snow I will always take tree promo first, seems more useful.

I tend to use 1 and a barb and often get another in a hut, two often leaves me with 3-4 which is too much and that starting time is important. Yes one video can show a lot of benefit but you can have bad scouting occur as well.

I have also adopted the same approach to promotions. although I prefer the alpine promotion first because hills allow you to see further.

 

[Victoria]

Nice thought!

 

[stinkubus]

Scouts w/ Alpine also get double movement on forest/jungle hills, so taking Alpine first gets you double movement on more tiles.

 

[Noblebenj]

Good example of the benefits of the double Scout opener. Though maybe I would have preferred to settle 1 tile northeast on the floodplain across the river. (Production in capital is initially weak, but pop growth to the first limits is very fast and settler as 3. unit towards city near spices for production of military units + even more settlers from the capital probable ...)

Scouts also should be moved EFFICIENTLY.

Found Fithy's game.. #8!

 

[Ornen]

Killer double scout opener!

Looks like the exception, not the rule to me -- not sure if I've ever seen a start with that much free space, at least in my experience.

The problem with specific case examples of 2x scout working is that it's an inherently dicey strategy, and sometimes it's going to work very well. Much of the time, it isn't, unlike slinger-builder-slinger-settler or something similar.

 

[Forbiddentwo]

For what it's worth, I've switched to scout, slinger, worker , slinger x6 (deity difficulty) and haven't had problems yet.

There's still some risk from stuff like an early double rush (damn it Gilgamesh) or getting unluckkwith barbs plus an early war dec, but it's not that bad.

 

[diamond geezer]

That was a very peculiar start. Ignoring the recorder's gameplay, there was no nearby AI Civ and the Barbarians appeared disinterested as well as zero spawns - my experience is that if you leave a Scout a couple of tiles away even the Phalanx will come out of the fort and attack them. Was there a mod in action?

Also imagine that you had produced early slingers - you could have taken out the Barbarian camp and then moved on to a City State once you had Archery. Would that have been worse?

 

[Darkhart]

The problem with specific case examples of 2x scout working is that it's an inherently dicey strategy, and sometimes it's going to work very well. Much of the time, it isn't, unlike slinger-builder-slinger-settler or something similar.

Exactly!

So far in this thread the greatest threat, to your early civilisation, has been presented as the barb horseman outpost, and don't misunderstand me, that can be a serious threat to your units, but there is a far greater one, particularly at higher levels of difficulty, and on longer speed games, that I've not seen mentioned yet.....

The AI rush.

Specifically, the early intrusion of your land, using 3-5 warrior units, with the express intention of capturing your capitol and thus, removing you from the game. This tactic carries a far more existential threat to you, even though it utilises units that are far weaker than horseman, for the following reasons:-

1) It can happen very quickly. The AI places it's second settler around turn 6 and turn 15 (marathon), at this point, the AI has a large excess of units, with few reasons now to remain in it's territory, and very many reasons to defeat a weak neighbour.... you!
2) It can happen without warning. The AI is "omniscient"... it doesn't need to "discover" your start position, nor does it need to assess relative army strengths.... therefore, very often, your first contact with your neighbour is also your first indication that your are about to be dog-piled.
3) Your ability to react, at this stage of the game, is very limited. At marathon speed, with a pop 2 city, it can take 10-12 turns to build a slinger, and with not enough gold to buy one outright, you don't have the luxury of time, or gold, to build a defence against it. You'll be fighting with what you have.
​

Having said all this, the greatest danger to your existence is NOT the sudden influx of units, hit-points or relative strengths. The greatest danger to you is siege and your ability to fight sustained, for the maybe 10-20 turns, it can take for you to defeat them. If your units, and most importantly, your city cannot heal, you will die. Therefore, in higher level games, with longer speeds, larger numbers of civs and maps that promote early contact, it is incumbent upon you to begin with a build that, combined with your initial warrior, can break successive sieges upon your capitol. The only build that I know that can consistently do this is slinger/*/*/*, by using the poor AI against itself, with the following method.

With the slinger fortified in the city, for extra city def, and the warrior, fortified, on an adjacent hex (with def value) that ideally overlooks two, ring 1, zero def value hexes. With this formation the AI HAS to place ONE of the besieging units in strike range of both of yours. Use the slinger, with no risk of damage to himself, to take the shine of the enemy's armour, overcoming the difficulty penalty, and your warrior to score a "minor" or "major" victory against him. Do NOT go for "decisive" victory as this may result in relinquishing your defensive position and can also expose you to counter attack. The AI tries to save it's own unit by running to your borders for faster healing, thus breaking it's own siege. It may well replace this unit with another, similarly, this first unit may well heal and return, but by utilising this tactic, you expose yourself to minimum damage for the greatest effect, i.e. breaking the siege.

One last thing, about and against the scout/scout/*/*/* build. If your objective is to map and acquire opportunity, whether acting as individual scouts or hunting as pairs, this tends to lead to a "divergent" position, one that dilutes the limited resources available to you, where after 15-20 turns of scouting, your scouts are now 10-15 turns from your capitol, and effectively useless when considering it's defence. You may very well have created opportunistic advantage, but that will be of no value (excepting maybe discovery of a warrior, or +2 cog from an IND CS) when it comes to defending your city, or building an early rush army. Also, the last 10 turns of movement by those scouts, and the information gained, is of less relevancy to your IMMEDIATE decision making, and very often provides info that will not be acted upon for another 50 turns, and thus being out-dated.

Earlier, I posted my opening moves, detailing the scouting pattern of my initial warrior, I finished the post quite quickly.... It had been a long day. I didn't make it clear in that post, so I will do so now. That 15-20 turn circular pattern, allows you to map your immediate area, providing all the information you require to formulate your moves and goals for the next 20-30 turns. It leaves the warrior back where he started, alongside and able to support, your new slinger in the possible defence of your capitol, and/or forming the nucleus of a rush army, with all the relevant map to plan your first expansion, or identify and plan the approach route to your first target....a convergent position, concentrating your resources, optimising your information and providing flexibility in your response.

 

[Noblebenj]

Exactly!

So far in this thread the greatest threat, to your early civilisation, has been presented as the barb horseman outpost, and don't misunderstand me, that can be a serious threat to your units, but there is a far greater one, particularly at higher levels of difficulty, and on longer speed games, that I've not seen mentioned yet.....

The AI rush.

Specifically, the early intrusion of your land, using 3-5 warrior units, with the express intention of capturing your capitol and thus, removing you from the game. This tactic carries a far more existential threat to you, even though it utilises units that are far weaker than horseman, for the following reasons:-

1) It can happen very quickly. The AI places it's second settler around turn 6 and turn 15 (marathon), at this point, the AI has a large excess of units, with few reasons now to remain in it's territory, and very many reasons to defeat a weak neighbour.... you!
2) It can happen without warning. The AI is "omniscient"... it doesn't need to "discover" your start position, nor does it need to assess relative army strengths.... therefore, very often, your first contact with your neighbour is also your first indication that your are about to be dog-piled.
3) Your ability to react, at this stage of the game, is very limited. At marathon speed, with a pop 2 city, it can take 10-12 turns to build a slinger, and with not enough gold to buy one outright, you don't have the luxury of time, or gold, to build a defence against it. You'll be fighting with what you have.
​

Having said all this, the greatest danger to your existence is NOT the sudden influx of units, hit-points or relative strengths. The greatest danger to you is siege and your ability to fight sustained, for the maybe 10-20 turns, it can take for you to defeat them. If your units, and most importantly, your city cannot heal, you will die. Therefore, in higher level games, with longer speeds, larger numbers of civs and maps that promote early contact, it is incumbent upon you to begin with a build that, combined with your initial warrior, can break successive sieges upon your capitol. The only build that I know that can consistently do this is slinger/*/*/*, by using the poor AI against itself, with the following method.

With the slinger fortified in the city, for extra city def, and the warrior, fortified, on an adjacent hex (with def value) that ideally overlooks two, ring 1, zero def value hexes. With this formation the AI HAS to place ONE of the besieging units in strike range of both of yours. Use the slinger, with no risk of damage to himself, to take the shine of the enemy's armour, overcoming the difficulty penalty, and your warrior to score a "minor" or "major" victory against him. Do NOT go for "decisive" victory as this may result in relinquishing your defensive position and can also expose you to counter attack. The AI tries to save it's own unit by running to your borders for faster healing, thus breaking it's own siege. It may well replace this unit with another, similarly, this first unit may well heal and return, but by utilising this tactic, you expose yourself to minimum damage for the greatest effect, i.e. breaking the siege.

One last thing, about and against the scout/scout/*/*/* build. If your objective is to map and acquire opportunity, whether acting as individual scouts or hunting as pairs, this tends to lead to a "divergent" position, one that dilutes the limited resources available to you, where after 15-20 turns of scouting, your scouts are now 10-15 turns from your capitol, and effectively useless when considering it's defence. You may very well have created opportunistic advantage, but that will be of no value (excepting maybe discovery of a warrior, or +2 cog from an IND CS) when it comes to defending your city, or building an early rush army. Also, the last 10 turns of movement by those scouts, and the information gained, is of less relevancy to your IMMEDIATE decision making, and very often provides info that will not be acted upon for another 50 turns, and thus being out-dated.

Earlier, I posted my opening moves, detailing the scouting pattern of my initial warrior, I finished the post quite quickly.... It had been a long day. I didn't make it clear in that post, so I will do so now. That 15-20 turn circular pattern, allows you to map your immediate area, providing all the information you require to formulate your moves and goals for the next 20-30 turns. It leaves the warrior back where he started, alongside and able to support, your new slinger in the possible defence of your capitol, and/or forming the nucleus of a rush army, with all the relevant map to plan your first expansion, or identify and plan the approach route to your first target....a convergent position, concentrating your resources, optimising your information and providing flexibility in your response.

Excellent summary! Got me thinking...

 

[c4c6]

When I wrote "Scouts also should be moved EFFICIENTLY." I meant not only the tactical details which were well discussed in the following posts, but also the moving pattern of the initial scout (scout/scout??/*/*/*) as a whole ... I often watched quick built scouts then to move a bit careless, even "random" sometimes.

So your well thought out warrior circular moving pattern should be accompanied by a complementing scout "circular" moving pattern (starting in opposite direction, circling in appropriate distance and then like onion levels move away, but always certain, that there is no Civ city in between in the 'cleared' area radius).

Depending on what is known then the 2nd unit may be a scout too. Again starting in another direction, splitting the 360° approach of the initial scout into two 180° sectors.
Of course, this depends heavily on the coastlines met (or not!).

In any case scouts on their mapping tour should always consider the risk of The AI rush in every move they make.

(Does the risk of an "well timed" AI rush disable a own early rush strategy?)

 

[gimper42]

(Does the risk of an "well timed" AI rush disable a own early rush strategy?)

Depends on what you mean precisely by "well timed". Most times when I am rushed early by the AI on deity it is a bit of setback on the timing of my own early rush. But I look at the silver lining of gaining XP for my units and probably a settler or two for my trouble. Plus you can pretty much rest assured that once you have dealt with the enemy units, his or her cities are going to be empty and ripe for the picking afterwards. In my games I already know going in that I am going to fight that army, it's just a matter of when and often earlier is better.

So, no, it does not disable a own early rush strategy. Just delays it a bit, usually.