Let's talk about opening moves

As an aside, this is an example of why I was advocating that gold-selling units be fixed rather than just eliminated entirely -- building scouts would be a more feasible option if you could sell them and buy slingers if it turns out you need military ASAP.
 
I go early scout, if there is at least one barbarian encampment I can't clear I'll go one slinger, otherwise its just builder or possibly monument. When you shuffle map type archer rushing is completely useless if you happen to be on islands. Also fast 3 archer makes getting an early religion extremely difficult.
 
I go early scout, if there is at least one barbarian encampment I can't clear I'll go one slinger, otherwise its just builder or possibly monument. When you shuffle map type archer rushing is completely useless if you happen to be on islands. Also fast 3 archer makes getting an early religion extremely difficult.
That's a specific situation, but I would have thought that scouts would be more useless as a first build on islands...
 
I always go slinger / builder , or, builder / slinger. Anything after that depends on the situation and civ I'm playing.
 
Hello everyone, this is my first post. Having recently purchased CIV6, I've been following civfanatics for strategy tips and ideas, as I'm adjusting to the new game mechanics and concepts.... I missed Civ5, so this is a big change from Civ4, where I generally "Fell from Heaven". :satan:

Firstly, thank you to the Mods, for keeping this site going over the years, and thank-you to the posters on this thread as you have inspired me to re-join.... just to get my 2c in. :old:

Here we go...

There seems to be an on-going debate about Scout/Scout build vs Slinger/other build. The two major protagonists, and their supporters, equally arguing good points whilst both agreeing that it is case specific... which quite clearly it is. There was also mention of test-bedding a series of starts to find a potential answer based on end performance over an average of games. Might I suggest a solution....

Both parties agree to a mutual format (player civ, game speed, world size and type, number of AI's etc). One person starts a game, and does a turn 0 save, (without moving any pieces). They then send the other party the save game, and then both parties play their preferred strategy on that same game to a mutually agreed point, with what ever unit of success you may choose, ie number of cities at 100 turns, total science and culture points accumulated etc.... depending on whatever you might define as your measure of success. If you did this, averaged over a series of games, you'd still have the "case specific" argument.... but it would be the SAME case, with the only variable now being individual player skill.

There was also mentioned earlier;-

I think Quick speed helps you recover if attacked easier as you can make a defender very quickly if needed. I know on Epic speed that getting caught without a defender is bad as it takes a long time to build a unit.

This is very true, and has been true of all previous versions of Civ, and IMO, hasn't been given enough consideration in this thread. As a very basic example;-

If my visibility from my CAP is 8 hexes, it takes 4 turns for an enemy warrior to get his first attack on my city (assuming 2 hexes movement per turn across open terrain). On a quick game I can build 2 defenders in those 4 turns, on marathon game I'd only be halfway through building the first one. Similarly if it takes 200 turns to traverse the globe, on a quick game the technology has so rapidly advanced, that the returning unit should be put in a museum as an ancient artifact. Whereas on a marathon game it's merely due for an upgrade. Therefore the scout/scout build will be more successful (or has less risk) on quicker games, whereas the slinger/other build is a safer bet against the slower reaction times, of longer games.

Just my 2c worth.... It's good to be back!

:newyear:
 
@ Darkhart Welcome to the forums, in general folks are quite friendly ...provided you stay away from the Civ IV/1 UPT debates

Yes quick speed is a factor, in general it takes away a lot from the conquest game for the reasons you have mentioned. Personally I have always enjoyed domination games and as a result used to play Civ V on a slower pace.

Rather than using save files we could use the same map/game seed instead.
 
I always open with one or double scout (deity); by my last 2 games were: Double dow and with 7 warriors in total in front of my capital, I was toast. Next game, plenty of land, one ai far away. Then suddenly literally out of nowhere 4 horse barbs and one horse archer near my capital. I doubt I would have time to build more than 2 slingers. So now I understand ppl with the security of building armies right off the bat.
This is the best case for non scout builds. There's about an equal chance in my experience that you'll get a significant bonus as the chance you'll get wiped out in the opening turns of the game. Not worth it.

Slinger - builder, on the other hand, is consistently going to get you off to a good start. Better tiles, multiple eurekas, and a boost to the best opening civic. I'll take the opener that works over the opener that sometimes works and sometimes blows games by t10.
 
The way I look at it is its sort of like low risk vs high risk investments.

The scout can nab you a couple extra envoys and probably a few goody huts. Those can often pay off the scout and if you manage to find a military CS you can even sometimes get that third slinger in the same time a slinger start would. Problem is it leaves you a little vulnerable to early rush and you may not get many envoys or goody huts. Face it those are a crapshoot.

Slingers are a little more dependable. A slinger start will probably be safer and skipping the scout may mean the one more city cap prior to walls and warmonger penalties. Downside is less exploration means fewer CS envoys which are a big boost to the capital and fewer goody huts.

The scout could get you into a better position but the slinger start's more dependable IMO.
 
Again, we're not just comparing scout to slinger, especially since you're going to build the slinger anyway. We're also comparing it to early settler, which is very strong. I would much rather have two slingers, a builder, and a second city than two scouts, a slinger, and a builder.

Uhh, and two envoys and a few goody huts sounds on the high side in my experience. After the opening turns, it's very unlikely you'll find a new CS until you start exploring the water. You will get some extra goody huts (would be interested in a count here), many of which won't even be useful.
 
The way I see it: The one situation that I can see where building a scout first would be most beneficial is if you end up being rather isolated, but not alone on your continental or pangea landmass. That also happens to be one of the starts that tends to give you one or more nearby barbarian huts that go unmolested unless you do something about them yourself. When one of those huts starts spewing out horsemen and horse archers and your capital is empty while it is building your second scout or a builder, that's game over for you. Not worth the risk. Building a slinger first works better on several levels. Not to mention it is the safe play.
 
That's a specific situation, but I would have thought that scouts would be more useless as a first build on islands...

I'm shuffling map type, so I don't really know I'm on islands. Sometimes you can kind of tell in that you're surrounded by water on 2 or 3 sides, in which case I'll go builder first but that's more a function of knowing that I won't be squeezed by early rushes as opposed to having my scout be useless for a while middle game.
 
When one of those huts starts spewing out horsemen and horse archers and your capital is empty while it is building your second scout or a builder, that's game over for you.

I mean horseman rushes should be taken very seriously but its far from "game over" when you go scout/builder to start. When you go scout first you can keep your warrior 3-4 tiles away since its your scout that is doing the scouting. If you go slinger first, if you send it to scout its very vulnerable to a horseman rush, but if you don't send the scout that means you're either sending your warrior too far away from your base or just not scouting far at all. The extra gold from scouting helps you rushbuy a slinger (if needed) the builder gives you 1-2 hammers in production and lets you chop wood for a faster slinger (if needed). The scout can also tell you where the early encampments are so you get eliminate them before horsemen.

All that said, its not like civ6 is particularly hard when you make it past early game. I can definitely see the argument for just being super conservative and going slinger, slinger, slinger or something. I've certainly been punished enough with builder/monument starts, but I haven't lost with scout first yet.
 
I forget that vanilla is pretty tame compared to running the AI+ mod. You're probably correct.
 
Sorry Ornen.... I posted yesterday and never answered your OP, nor did I mean to simply break your question down to a binary either/or decision. There are many potential starting moves, based on play style, civ characteristics and map parameters, here's mine.

My initial starting strategy is based on a very low bar... the metaphorical desert, where everything above that (resources, luxuries, goody huts, envoys) is a bonus but not required. The only requirement that might trigger a restart is lack of fresh water, though even that can be mitigated over time.

I tend to play, deity, huge world, continents, marathon, all civs. This means that it's going to get "down and dirty" very fast. Worse still, that first clash will be conducted with very few technical or social advances Without any science or culture bonuses it's 27 turns for first tech (Animal Husbandry) and 45 turns for first civic (Code of Laws).

If there is a wooded plains hill with water access within 2 turns, or a beaut position like river delta with hills on the coast, I'll move, otherwise I'm looking to put usable bonus food resources, especially pastures, within the first or second ring. As a secondary consideration is strategic positioning, such things as a mountain range or coastline can greatly reduce the arc on which threats can appear, though at the same time they limit your options for expansion. Tactical defensive positioning is generally of low priority, as my starting parameters calls for an aggressive play style, which means that very quickly (~200 turns), nothing gets near my capital. The only corollary to that is, I tend to move AWAY from rain-forest; it blocks visibility, slows movement, and provides good defensive terrain adjacent to my city. All of which can be used against me, and it's iron-working before it can be chopped.

Ok, so you've hit the build button, and got your first city. Tech is Animal husbandry > Archery. Build is slinger / builder / slinger / slinger with the final slinger micro-managed to arrive one turn before Archery. If you need to delay Archery to build that third slinger, then switch to Mining (my third tech). As regards workforce placement, I'm Old School and emphasize growth over production, as extra population at this stage reaps massive rewards, compared to additional units. Remember, marathon speed advantages unit moves over build or science turns, and there tends to be a window of about 20-30 initial turns where nothing very much happens apart from the occasional barb scout. 2 pop in your Cap is far more able to build rush a slinger in emergencies than the 1 pop you've got.... because you emphasized production.... because you worried about emergencies.... Fortune favours the bold!

However, having said that, a nearby luxury or resource that gives 2f 1c + additional culture, science, gold, or even faith, can very often provide far greater short/mid-term reward than a 3f cattle hex, this however is case specific, debatable and should not be considered as part of a base-line strategy. The real question, in those first 30 turns, is not what your building or what your teching, but what are you doing with that warrior?

It boils down to a philosophical position, do you use it to generate opportunity, or do you use to mitigate against disaster?.... IMO, if you choose the second option at this stage of the game, you're probably playing the wrong game. The truth is, you'll never know until you look. It is therefore a scout and, what's-more, a sub-optimal one, but it is what you've got.... Fortune favours the bold! It is however, ALL you've got... Adversity punishes recklessness! Therefore... use it wisely!

The gathering of information, in this sense, is called scouting, but there are two distinct and separate types;-

1) Mapping;- Turning black hexes to shaded hexes. This is the critical information that you will need to base your immediate plans upon.
2) Visibility;- Turning shaded hexes to bright hexes. This is the information that warns you of impending threats.​

At this stage, you need to maximise 1) whilst heeding 2). You need to form a picture of the surrounding terrain say 5 to 6 hexes outside of your current borders. Such things as rivers, mountains and coastlines define your natural borders and the immediate limits to your expansion. Jungles, hills, forests, deserts and tundras, all these give you a picture of where you are in the world, and combined with resources and luxuries, in what direction your first expansion will be most profitable. Co-incidental to this you may discover huts, CS, AI's, natural wonders, barb outposts and foreign continents, these are all potential opportunities, and give tech/civic boosts, but are not guaranteed nor should they be required to your over-all strategy.

The best way to fulfill this requirement, quickly and efficiently is to utilise specific map tools and use certain movement practices, that help to improve the warrior's scouting capabilities, whilst minimising it's exposure to risk. The map tools you need are;-

1) Grid;-This overlays the map with a fine hex pattern that shows you each individual space, and is useful for planning moves in large areas of similar terrain.
2) Yield;-This shows the individual return in food, cogs, science, gold, culture, faith from each hex and collectively forms a picture of benefits for a city site. The other benefit is that it will indicate the proximity of natural wonders, as most enhance the yield of surrounding hexes.
3) Settler filter;- This is the most useful filter as, not only does it show water access, but.... and here's the cookie, it red zones un-settleable terrain due to mountains, oasis and most importantly proximity to other cities... this is how to find AI's and CS and should be used at least every turn if not between individual moves of that turn.​

These last two are useful ways of predicting the next black map squares, before you move, and thus avoid making needless or less productive reconnaissance. Anything of note can then be highlighted using the map-pin toggle, to act as a reminder in future turns. This function is also useful to pinpoint the location where you meet other players units, as this will tell you the general direction in which they came from, and thus your potential threats.... or targets. :assimilate:

As regards movement practices, here are some helpful guidelines. Begin with a physical movement barrier, mountain range or coastline, move out 5 or 6 squares from your city centre, always remaining 2-3 turns away from your city. This depends on the intervening terrain and can be checked using the path-tracker (right button hold, I believe). Proceed around this circumference, utilising a "skipping" process wherever possible, two hexes of plain for speed, followed by one hex of hills for visibility, try to "peek" around hills, before stepping onto them next turn. Avoid combat, unless it's a half dead scout (which may indicate the presence of other units) and heal immediately in a defensive position with good visibility. Utilise terrain to it's maximum as follows;-

1) Hills;- provide increased visibility and unit defence, and should be utilised when ever possible to maximise mapped squares and fore-warning of immediate threats. Skirt the edges, but try to avoid entering too deep as it will limit your ability to react to threats on your city.
2) Forests, jungle;- provide defensive terrain, particularly when combined with hills, but limit sight, which makes it possible to bumble into things. Once again entering deep into a thick forest or jungle can be a death trap.
3) Rivers;- Important to scout as, due to fresh water access, these generally provide the best city positions. They also give defensive bonus (attacking penalties) from across the river, and movement penalties when crossing it. If you can assess which way is downstream it will lead you to the coast... eventually. Should you encounter a barb, place yourself on the opposite side, thus forcing him to attack you at penalty.
4) Plains/grassland;-Worth mapping but be cautious, as enemy movement exceeds visibility range.
5) Desert /Tundra;- Avoid if possible as enemy movement exceeds visibility range, use hills to map.​

Understand these are guidelines and techniques, and should not be treated as fixed rules. There is always the risk vs reward calculation, and experience and practice will help you determine the correct choice. Time your return to coincide with the appearance of your first slinger. These now pair up as a double act, generally staying within your borders for defence of the city and future builder, with brief forays out to kill barb outposts, prioritising the kill for the slinger and thus the Archery boost.
 
That was incredibly insightful, especially the Warrior-scouting part. Most of them should be obvious, but sometimes it takes a genius to see and point the obvious.
 
I play to have fun, If I am going to spend hours on a game I am not going to start from a crappy position. Call me scum IDC...

There are too many variables to always play one way. If I start on a coast with mountains running to the sea behind me and nothing visible 15 tiles in front of me for my barb to take why would I rush slingers while Agoge is much more efficient and sensible. After all slingers slow down development. A single barb can hold the fort while I go scout buidler monument campus if thats where I want to go.

Also they can very quickly put a city under siege, should you get 3 promotions then you can have a pretty tough unit,
Having always been a scout proponent.... (for emperor or below) I finally swapped about 2 weeks ago to using both low level scout promotions and ignoring the higher tier. It was very rare my scouts survived to ranger (where they are very cool and enjoyable with 4 levels of promotion) and so I now bite the bullet and have a scout that can move 3 tiles as long as they avoid swamp and rivers. It helps with second continent scouting.

@Darkhart You warriors primary role is to find that close barb camp before it finds you and waste it without waiting for slingers. that is called mitigating disaster IMO. That slinger is of far more use going the other way, intelligence is sooo important early unless you play a weird peaceful turtle game initially (tried, works, just not that much fun and misses out on CS a lot). The moment I bump into Kumasi early my whole strategy will change. I appreciate your points of view and switching all those lenses will leave me fitting on the floor so I tend to avoid... and I have seen the civs settling in the weirdest places. My first build can happily be mining - wheel if I have 3 plains wheat farms and have held off archers for turn 50 before quite happily.
I am not dissing your style, saying saying thats what it is ... your style. Mine changes with the east wind.
 
So, now that everyone (including me) have the Aztecs, I wonder how do you open with them. In addition to the Scout and Slinger, they also have the Eagle Warrior to capture Builders.

I'd guess using an early Slinger or two might help, but I can't help the feeling that I'm missing something if I don't start building Eagle Warriors soon. Pretty much like Sumeria and their War-Carts (though those are most certainly worth the opening build).

EDIT: OK, after trying a couple starts, definitely I shouldn't be opening with a second Eagle Warrior. Just need a more careful unit placement so the Eagle Warrior can get the last kill.
 
Last edited:
Eagle Warriors are way overpriced. I edited the .xml file and lowered their cost from 65 cogs to 45 cogs. Still more expensive than a regular warrior, but not so expensive that it would take 22 turns to build one.

I think the proper fix for this is to allow Aztecs to make regular warriors.

As far as for opening moves, assuming standard vanilla setup, I would make more slingers and fewer (Eagle) warriors than I would with most other civs. If I can score a free builder early enough, I might start my first district sooner than usual. Otherwise, pretty much the same.
 
Eagle Warriors are way overpriced. I edited the .xml file and lowered their cost from 65 cogs to 45 cogs. Still more expensive than a regular warrior, but not so expensive that it would take 22 turns to build one.

I think the proper fix for this is to allow Aztecs to make regular warriors.

As far as for opening moves, assuming standard vanilla setup, I would make more slingers and fewer (Eagle) warriors than I would with most other civs. If I can score a free builder early enough, I might start my first district sooner than usual. Otherwise, pretty much the same.

From my game, I found that it's possible to build a few more Eagle Warriors and skip Heavy Chariots or Horsemen for a while, because of the Aztecs' UA. Get a few luxuries and Eagle Warriors may face Swordsmen, while still netting you Builders. They may be slower, but surely hold their own against city fire (in fact, Archers also get the bonus, which makes them a viable substitute for early Rams).

Of course, if you plan to go full Domination, you still need more advanced units. But if you only want to conquer a few neighbours and focus on another route, it's entirely possible to skip mounted units altogether.
 
I like 2 archers : 1 eagle warrior - seems to be about right to be able to finish every unit with the warrior. I think they're massively underpriced, they kill quicker and last a lot longer than warriors before having to heal which just speeds everything up, and the free builders get ridiculous on a crowded map.

First unit still slinger though, Eagle warriors are much better with archers than by themselves
 
Back
Top Bottom