Let's Vox Populi! (#3)

[DoodlesTheDragon]

- Time victory off or on? - I can't see this ever mattering?

Potentially if there's a really attritional World War in the late game where everyone's getting nuked and set back an era, this might come into play. I prefer it off myself since I view time victory as anti-climactic. On the other hand, it would allow players an extra strategy of just going for as high a score as possible for turn 500. I'd be ok with either myself.

- Handful of AIs in the mix? (Matching size if so) - probably not, balancing them to not be a push over or too hard for everyone seems tricky.

I'd be in favor of no major AIs. Maybe we could have a few more city-states than normal cause of this too.

Food for thought. With this game taking many months if not over a year to play, how will you balance playing this and playing other games? New versions of VP will come out in the meantime. Is there an easy to way to load one config for the MP game but keep another for solo games played locally?

According to Rongute we shouldn't need to worry about that if we're using GMR. The question then is whether that'll be the case, but Rongute, STEPHENHOFFMAN, Milae(?), and myself have already voiced preference for GMR. So if just 1 more person speaks in favor of GMR, we're using GMR.

 

[stii]

Extra CS to space players out a bit more seems good.

As does GMR, as it deals with an awkward problem.

 

[HorseshoeHermit]

Yes, putting on Enlightenment Era is shortsighted, it's clear now. I just like it sooo much.

According to Rongute we shouldn't need to worry about that if we're using GMR. The question then is whether that'll be the case, but Rongute, STEPHENHOFFMAN, Milae(?), and myself have already voiced preference for GMR. So if just 1 more person speaks in favor of GMR, we're using GMR.

No, you do need to keep the correct mod version on your computer to play the game save. It's like loading a saved game; it won't work if you don't have the engine to make sense of the file.
And, because VP is very weird and not like other mods, you need to completely wipe your system of all other versions of VP. If someone could account for why having another version of mods on the hard drive, which you don't load, makes another one run incorrectly as VP is known to do, we wouldn't have that problem. But the installer destroys all other VP versions with prejudice for exactly that reason.

When we play you'll have to use that version every time. Which means not updating while we have our battle, or running the installer before loading the game every time. If you guys want the game to be wrapped up in not longer than two years, I doubt you can spare the time for that.
And there is, I assure you, absolutely no way this will take less than 1 year. Going through 8 people for even 200 turns would need us to *always* have *every* day 4 people submit their turn, in fact averaging 4.4 submissions per day, to get to 365 days done. That just doesn't happen.

 

[DoodlesTheDragon]

Yes, putting on Enlightenment Era is shortsighted, it's clear now. I just like it sooo much.

Hear hear.


So, since HorseshoeHermit(?), stii, myself, Rongute, and Grassland Farm are in agreement on no modmods, we won't be using modmods for this first game (or at least if we are they should be pretty minor).

As well, we'll be using GMR since Rongute, STEPHENHOFFMAN, Milae(?), stii and myself have voiced preference there.

Anyone who wants to bring up some arguments to change our minds is free to do so, but until then, these are the decisions so far.

So now onto the next topics...

Planet, Game Speed, and Resources. For me...

Planet-Low Oceans because A) I'm used to huge maps and the more land the better and B) The oceans are huge anyways and still will be fairly large with Low Oceans.

Game Speed-Standard. With 8 players on a standard map, I'd prefer Standard since I don't want time to fly by too quickly.

Resources-Standard. If it's Abundant, they become basically meaningless. If they're Scarce, a bunch of us probably miss out on uniques and have handicapped militaries-but I would still find that more interesting than Abundant.

So far, going by setting/votes

Low Oceans 2(Doodles, stii)/Standard Oceans 1(stii)

Standard Speed 2(Doodles, stii)

Standard Resources 2(Doodles, stii)/Modified for Horses and Iron 1(stii)

What do the rest of you think?

 

[STEPHEN HOFFMANN]

Planet- My vote would be standard. Low could nerf civs with naval advantages

Game Speed- Agree with standard. I play epic but d r as long as this is going to take standard should be used.

Resources-Standard or balanced.

What about settings like world age, rainfall etc? Leaving those all normal?

 

[DoodlesTheDragon]

What about settings like world age, rainfall etc? Leaving those all normal?

I chose to just ask 3 settings at a time to make things a bit simpler for everyone and to allow arguments for and against without the posts getting huge, but if anyone already has an idea for more than 3 settings they'd like, they can post those and I'll record them till we get 5 people in favor of each.

Might count HorseshoeHermit (if he and others are ok with it) as being worth 2 votes since this whole operation was his idea, so he can be a tie breaker, and because he's gonna need to set the thing up with more effort than the rest of us.


For me on world age and rainfall, I choose... standard.

 

[stii]

I chose to just ask 3 settings at a time to make things a bit simpler for everyone and to allow arguments for and against without the posts getting huge, but if anyone already has an idea for more than 3 settings they'd like, they can post those and I'll record them till we get 5 people in favor of each.

Might count HorseshoeHermit (if he and others are ok with it) as being worth 2 votes since this whole operation was his idea, so he can be a tie breaker, and because he's gonna need to set the thing up with more effort than the rest of us.


For me on world age and rainfall, I choose... standard.

Agree with all you said.

Having a tiebreaker seems fine. Normal setting seem better, I'm not too bothered but I don't think anything other standard adds anything.

 

[stii]

Probably best to work what else needs to be decided. (my opinions)

Difficulty, for barbs/CS (emperor/immortal)
Ruins (off)
Banned exploits (no CS war/peace?)

 

[Rongute]

I presume that we would need to keep two versions of the mod folder. One for this game, and then one for any single player games played under the latest version.

I'm used to playing with standard oceans, or high oceans. My preference would then be standard, but it's not something that I'm precious about. I vote standard speed, and standard resources.

 

[HorseshoeHermit]

I didn't know about all this ocean variation. When you play with low oceans it just means more land, right? I know that when you play with young Earth it makes more mountains and hills, does low ocean do that too?

I can get behind just adding more land%, but OTOH, I think the interaction with Terra is better with a big ocean to wander around in. Sometimes the other continent is actually connected by coastal water and maybe low oceans would increase the chance of that, which is not the point.

Thanks for helping out, Doodles. I am still very scrambled, but I'll see about another update to the OP today (next 8 hours).

 

[Milae]

I actually could try to make an entirely separate mod and dump all of the mods we are using in it. Would save a lot of time in the future if it's possible.

 

[stii]

I didn't know about all this ocean variation. When you play with low oceans it just means more land, right? I know that when you play with young Earth it makes more mountains and hills, does low ocean do that too?

I can get behind just adding more land%, but OTOH, I think the interaction with Terra is better with a big ocean to wander around in. Sometimes the other continent is actually connected by coastal water and maybe low oceans would increase the chance of that, which is not the point.

Thanks for helping out, Doodles. I am still very scrambled, but I'll see about another update to the OP today (next 8 hours).

I think the main concern is the chance of some players getting very squeezed. I did a few test games to see and 8p terra did sometimes generate players really on top of each other to the point where you struggle to get three cities total. And I think the early game is far more important than later game colonies which might never come into play.

I'd prefer Pangea or Oval just to give more space.

 

[HorseshoeHermit]

Im also interested in getting the difficulty setting right. I don't want to see inflated numbers for Barbarian bonuses but I don't want to see AI players having incommensurate speeds at doing stuff. A higher difficulty will make CS bullying weaker, right? It may be important to not hinder that strategy too much.

I updated the OP to reflect the matters of various settings, and also settled the topic of Game Pace and Resource Standard abundance. I think Time victory just comes down to if we want a maximum turn count. If we put a maximum turn count, either somebody wins or we all lose. And I don't want this to be an infinity game. .... maybe when VP receives its final update (hahaaaaa in like 2040 hahaaaaa).

Hadn't noticed there were already a playset of us. Might have to have a shootout for the eighth slot, looks like.

My leanings on some TBD votes:
I have no strong preference for Technology trading or research agreements, but I do have a strong feeling about -not- checking the "No Tech Brokering" box.
I would vote to have Ancient Ruins.

 

[stii]

Yeah AI difficulty means CS are weaker so easier to bully. It does also mean they are slower to grow to the size where you get non gold rewards though (size five I think?) You can certainly still bully on deity for large yields with the smallest army so I wouldn't worry too much about making it hard. Having a map where lots of the CS are out of reach early game is more of an issue really.

We probably should discuss the player elimination point, if someone loses their capital they are pretty clearly dead 99% of the time, no need to make them fight to the bitter end. The AI should be able handle things (probably as a vassal) Although then AI trading does cause a few issues.

I think all tech trading off is better as humans can abuse it pretty hard, working together to double their tech speed, research agreements are fine as they provide a more reasonable boost for working together.

I am neutral on ruins.

 

[STEPHEN HOFFMANN]

I like the ancient ruins. Gives some diversity. Agree no tech trading among humans. Would be good with time victory as well.

 

[DoodlesTheDragon]

I can get behind just adding more land%, but OTOH, I think the interaction with Terra is better with a big ocean to wander around in. Sometimes the other continent is actually connected by coastal water and maybe low oceans would increase the chance of that, which is not the point.

I think the main concern is the chance of some players getting very squeezed. I did a few test games to see and 8p terra did sometimes generate players really on top of each other to the point where you struggle to get three cities total. And I think the early game is far more important than later game colonies which might never come into play.

I'd prefer Pangea or Oval just to give more space.

So... seeing what stii and HorseshoeHermit have mentioned about the map... I'm very conflicted.

Are you up for discussing map type Hermit, or is Terra one of the settings that are guaranteed?

It seems to me like we have 3 main choices here-

1) Terra with normal oceans-Acknowledge some people are gonna get squished and are gonna need to be pretty aggressive or improvise, going by stii's samples.

2) Terra with low oceans-Get a bit more room but possibly prevent mid-stage colonial phase. Might give 1 or 2 players access to far, far, far more land than anyone else from game start.

3) Pangaea, Oval, etc.-Forsake colonial stage, but guarantee everyone should have some room.

A few minor things which can reduce the problem a bit:

World Age-Older: There will be less mountains and hills, which means there will be more traversable land.

Rainfall-Abundant: More jungles and less deserts, which should mean better land for everyone.

Raging Barbarians: Should make it more difficult for people to go crazy with expansion and steal what little land there is.

Map Size: If we get a Large or Huge map going, this should fix the no land problem. Might be more computer straining though.

 

[stii]

Ok so I thought I'd collect some data on what these types of maps look like. It is never going to be perfect as there is a pretty big random element and is rather subjective. I generated 5 terra and 5 oval maps with 8p all setting standard with the main mod enabled and very advanced setup so I could have full vision. Spoilered below are images.

Spoiler lots of images :

Was basically fine, slightly tight in places, big areas of tundra/ice aren't great.




Probably fine but if Iroquois got unlucky they might not have room for 3 cities.




Austria can just about fit 3 cities here but they are super close to not fitting at all, you certainly don't get much option where they go.



(same map as before)
These players all have a bit of space to backfill but not much. Also if Arabia goes up they run right into Austria. There probably is just about enough space for everyone to get 3/4 cities but it doesn't take much before a player is brutally blocked in here.



Plenty of space but it is pretty awful, these maps seem to often have a bunch of terrible tundra/ice



(same map as above)
There are also sometimes these big islands close by. Here Brazil has a pretty huge area only they can really access

 

[stii]

continued,

Spoiler spoilered images :

This one is fine, plenty of room for everyone.



Morroco might have to cluster a few cities around the lake as it can't really go up but this is pretty minor.



Again this is fine. Some players have more room than other but no one is that squeezed.



Same again




This is a bit tight, BYZ will have to be careful if they want 4 cities.



These two are pretty close again but it isn't really an issue this time. Both can expand in multiple other direction uncontested.

 

[HorseshoeHermit]

That's some troubling data. Looks pretty damning, honestly. I never felt these things when I played. Those 8 player Terra maps look like not enough for 6 people.

 

[stii]

That's some troubling data. Looks pretty damning, honestly. I never felt these things when I played. Those 8 player Terra maps look like not enough for 6 people.

My educated guess would be the human is placed first so they don't ever get any of the really bad positions. Oval is also the map with most land, normal Pangea isn't quite such a big difference. But still if worst case comes up it is a big issue.

I'm also not exactly sure how many people we have and the 6p map is even smaller by ratio