Level 4 promotions for trebuchet/cannons?

[hlaeypm]

This works best when the sponge is sitting on an improved tile, so you can pillage and survive longer.

 

[Cromagnus]

Range > Cover for siege units... Keeping them alive is an art that mostly involves them never taking damage in the first place. IMHO

 

[Blitz Spearman]

I think the best way to use early siege units is a Longswords+Trebuchets army. Longswords can almost always crush Pikes and XBows, given equal numbers in both sides and a reasonably fair terrain. Then you bring the Trebs to get the city after dealing with the opposing army. If I am Japan or Denmark (Samurai/Berserker), I will always favor Trebs instead of Xbows as the ranged unit of choice, their synergy with the Longsword is strong.

 

[tommynt]

If u can take something with longswords and trebs u could take it same way with every unit combination.

Ptrzzy much same for all whats in this thread.
U want lvl some siege unit for 80 turns - make game harder for 80 turns by that to have addidional range - just when a unit with having additional range arrive ...

archer units are just so strong that siege ones arent needed. Full stop.

 

[Blitz Spearman]

If u can take something with longswords and trebs u could take it same way with every unit combination.

Ptrzzy much same for all whats in this thread.
U want lvl some siege unit for 80 turns - make game harder for 80 turns by that to have addidional range - just when a unit with having additional range arrive ...

archer units are just so strong that siege ones arent needed. Full stop.

Well, if you are thinking about pure efficiency, then I really can't disagree with you. Archer units are just stronger. But sometimes it is nice to play with something that is not the most optimal thing but is a different experience, just for fun, specially in single player which gets more boring the more skilled you get in the game. Just like getting Liberty when Trad would be stronger.

 

[Crafty Bison]

Range > Cover for siege units... Keeping them alive is an art that mostly involves them never taking damage in the first place. IMHO


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How do you ever get them to the level 4 promo without cover though? It's great to imagine them once they're there in theory but in practice cover straight off is more workable. That is unless you're close to artillery anyway, but for pre renaissance stuff your siege just gets targeted and one shotted if you don't take cover.

 

[Cromagnus]

I've never had a problem with my catapults dying. But keep in mind I was doing CB rush for a long time. You learn not to ever let your archers die. Catapults aren't harder to keep alive, IMHO. The trick as usual is to have a unit step in range at 95-99 health the same turn all your catapults do. The city will be nuked down to zero health by the time you need to step back and heal. If you're farming XP, just step back. If not, just capture.

So far the biggest challenge for a range promo siege rush for me has been getting them enough XP, because they do SO much more damage to cities than CBs. The least of my problems is keeping them alive.

It does work though. Admittedly it's harder than a CB rush. Mostly because you can start building archers on t16... But, I've made it work: Bronzeworking first, build a barracks while you tech mathematics. Build a couple spearman in your other cities while you wait... Rush buy catapults in your highest production city the turn you get mathematics. That gets you lvl 2 catapults XPing by turn 60, which will get you range by turn 110 with Honor, just in time to get Physics, if you play it right. And range trebuchet will own cities on t110. It may not be as fast a time to victory as CB rush but range logistics cannons own cities, and IMHO it's fun. It's probably more how the game was meant to be played before they broke it by making the archer line superior to the siege line. Don't get me wrong, I know that the archer line is better these days for conquest. It shouldn't be but it is.

But for certain civs, (Denmark comes to mind) trebuchet rush is still a valid way. More importantly it has more staying power than a pure CB rush. If you're like me and you struggle to finish the game before XBs lose steam, and end up getting late artillery because you teched machinery before education, having a few range logistics siege units will let you keep fighting for about 30 more turns, which will bridge you to artillery, and your artillery rush will be that much more effective... Range 4 double tap artillery will nuke down a city so fast it's not funny.

 

[Crafty Bison]

Ah, you use the decoy trick, fair enough. I usually don't do that purposefully as I regard it an AI abuse, but am not here to preach CiV morals and certainly wont try to stop others doing it. It could also be that I'm attempting more ambitious/suicidal city attacks for the tech level I'm at at the time. Of course it's a different story if u got a relevant UU such as Denmark or Persia, it's just I get so annoyed by how many people on these sites complain that siege is so paper thin but fail to do anything about it and get greedy going straight up for logistics.

 

[Blitz Spearman]

I just had a random thought about siege units. Would they be more balanced if they were actually harder to kill than archer units (and maybe make archer units easier to kill), while doing the same damage they do right now, but costing more than twice their present cost of production/gold? I mean, it would be a little more realistic. Trebuchets are kinda hard to build. A real world ancient army could have 3000 archers, but I doubt they would bring more than 50 siege machines to the battlefield.

It would be a nice opportunity/cost choice: should I invest my hammers in cheap archers that WILL get killed but are easily replaceable, or should I build a badass overpowered catapult that costs more than a cargo ship?

 

[Cromagnus]

Ah, you use the decoy trick, fair enough. I usually don't do that purposefully as I regard it an AI abuse, but am not here to preach CiV morals and certainly wont try to stop others doing it. It could also be that I'm attempting more ambitious/suicidal city attacks for the tech level I'm at at the time. Of course it's a different story if u got a relevant UU such as Denmark or Persia, it's just I get so annoyed by how many people on these sites complain that siege is so paper thin but fail to do anything about it and get greedy going straight up for logistics.

Since people have verified that Cover doesn't actually reduce damage from city attack taken by siege units, I think it's pretty much a no-brainer that you shouldn't take Cover.

However, the AI doesn't seem to know that Cover doesn't work. Once you take Cover, the city seems to stop attacking that unit... maybe it's my imagination.

In any case, I'm convinced Range, not Logistics, is the better first promotion for siege. Siege units have a lifespan that ends once a city+garrisoned unit can kill them in one round. Range extends that lifespan until the AI gets Artillery. Also, in many cases, you only get one attack in the first turn, because you have to setup. Even if you set up the previous turn, often now you're damaged and need to heal. And siege units do so much damage to begin with, Logistics is somewhat redundant and you don't get XP as fast after taking Logistics, because you nuke down cities so fast. So Range will be a long time coming, and that could end up getting those units killed. Because the only real issue is keeping them alive. (IMHO)

 

[Santa Maria]

I have other idea - Catapults and Trebuchets doing more damage to units then Composites and XB, so being more powerful, although easier to destroy and they need to set up. Dont know what to do about the mechanic overall, cause it seems building Cats and Trebs is pointless. And the city with a unit kills them in a single turn. Hm, the whole mechanic is a little bit weird, cause you should need siege and melee units. Now the ratio is 8 archery units and 2 melee or so. There is no real variety in what you need in your army.

 

[manu-fan]

With my ranged, I choose to either go 3 deep in increased damage in open, or increased damage in covered, so my 4th promotion is always the ability to shoot twice (sorry, don't know the names). Am I doing it wrong?

 

[phillipwyllie]

Ranged/seige units don't benefit from the cover promotion as per the Does Cover I/II promotions work against city attacks?, and Ranged units defend ranged attacks with ranged strength threads

 

[Tarbo]

I see good things here! Somehow many of you play in opposite style of mine.....cose early war for me its about spear/piqueman spam + some range units (max of 2 archer/cb + catap.or trebu)....Horses???? for me just for hammers not to ride

Late War???? Range SPAM.....if possible put that horse inside the rocket and send them both together to more damage in citys units and OFO's

 

[SYKOJAK]

For what its worth, I prefer to take the Range promotion before Logistics for all range units. I would rather have the extra range to hit targets before they can hit mine. It is valid even in open field warfare. Especially so when dealing with static targets like cities.

 

[TeriXeri]

LoS calculation for 3 range is very buggy

On a pre-arty/battleship unit, (which can shoot past Line of sight), it's intended to not have full range all-time, cannot shoot over hills or forests normally unless you put it on a hill yourself until you give it Indirect Fire.