Leveraging Vassalage
- Thread starter Artichoker
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Vassalage + OR does tend to work best in expansion wars, but the more I think back on the games where I used Vassalge to advantage, the more I notice that I was mainly using it in conjunction with several other conditions for 4th level units out the gate.
That would mean 10 XP.
Here's a probably plan where I would want to shift into Vassalage:
I've already got 2 GGs and settled them, or Charismatic and 1 GG (not at all hard with Persia, btw).
Assuming you're Persia, if you get 2 GGs early on, you can settle them in two separate cities, then switch to Vassalage + Theocracy and Barracks to get 9 XP for CR3 Swordsmen or Trebs or Cannon in two key production sites for your elite corps. The remainder of your cities will not need Barracks, even, because Vassalage+Theo already gets them to 4 XP for level 3, so you can save up on infrastructure in peripheral cities that way until you max out with unit production in every city once you switch Civics. Assuming you're coming from Barbarism, the Vassalage change will cost minimal extra and will offset the costs of extra troops, especially as you gain more cities.
This is the baseline "good position" wherein I can see a good swing point for Vassalage (don't need to build Barracks everywhere, massive troop XP advantage) that I would plan for the switch at the opportune time. Best, of course, with early SE focus for greater point troop production at the switch point.
Spiritual Civs can make use of Vassalage's XP advantage if they don't have a Commerce-heavy capital and have no Wonders they want to chase down. Basically, you trade a 50% hammer advantage in your capital for +25% hammer advantage in your peripheral cities while still maintaining moderate troop production on the XP Civ (for garrison or to prepare for the next war). Good for post-war development.
There's also some use for it if you have a hammer-rich secondary city that makes units and Wonders. Magic number is 10 XP, of course, so you'll want Vassalage, Theocracy, Barracks, and 2 GGs. If you're Imperialistic and Aggressive, you can try to go for 4 GGs in two production cities, effectively giving you the Persia setup above, except you'll have Barracks everywhere because you're Aggressive.
Of course, Imperialistic and Aggressive is Genghis Khan, and that also gives you access to the Ger, which is another good reason to aim for extra XP. Basically, Ger+Barracks gives you 7 XP base for mounted units. With Theo+Vassalage, you can come out with Combat 2 Shock Keshiks right out the gate, or go for Combat 3 Keshik with an aim for Blitz on the field. HAs are more powerful now with the removal of the -10% City Attack, so this is actually worthwhile to acquire. Combat2 Shock Keshiks are godly, able to take out even mildly promoted Spearmen - their counter unit. Send out Spies to knock out city defenses and your Elite Keshik Stack can take out several cities very quickly.
Of course, since you're using Ger and not GGs to push your Keshik, you can use your GGs on nonGer-cities to produce CR3 Trebs or Swordsmen or Formation Axemen or whatever suits your fancy. Or, make a SuperMedic AND make a SuperKeshik with Blitz, Morale, and added withdrawal chances.
Basically, Vassalage is useful for those situations where you want to push your unit XP past that afforded by Theo, or for some reason have no use for Bureau.
That would mean 10 XP.
Here's a probably plan where I would want to shift into Vassalage:
I've already got 2 GGs and settled them, or Charismatic and 1 GG (not at all hard with Persia, btw).
Assuming you're Persia, if you get 2 GGs early on, you can settle them in two separate cities, then switch to Vassalage + Theocracy and Barracks to get 9 XP for CR3 Swordsmen or Trebs or Cannon in two key production sites for your elite corps. The remainder of your cities will not need Barracks, even, because Vassalage+Theo already gets them to 4 XP for level 3, so you can save up on infrastructure in peripheral cities that way until you max out with unit production in every city once you switch Civics. Assuming you're coming from Barbarism, the Vassalage change will cost minimal extra and will offset the costs of extra troops, especially as you gain more cities.
This is the baseline "good position" wherein I can see a good swing point for Vassalage (don't need to build Barracks everywhere, massive troop XP advantage) that I would plan for the switch at the opportune time. Best, of course, with early SE focus for greater point troop production at the switch point.
Spiritual Civs can make use of Vassalage's XP advantage if they don't have a Commerce-heavy capital and have no Wonders they want to chase down. Basically, you trade a 50% hammer advantage in your capital for +25% hammer advantage in your peripheral cities while still maintaining moderate troop production on the XP Civ (for garrison or to prepare for the next war). Good for post-war development.
There's also some use for it if you have a hammer-rich secondary city that makes units and Wonders. Magic number is 10 XP, of course, so you'll want Vassalage, Theocracy, Barracks, and 2 GGs. If you're Imperialistic and Aggressive, you can try to go for 4 GGs in two production cities, effectively giving you the Persia setup above, except you'll have Barracks everywhere because you're Aggressive.
Of course, Imperialistic and Aggressive is Genghis Khan, and that also gives you access to the Ger, which is another good reason to aim for extra XP. Basically, Ger+Barracks gives you 7 XP base for mounted units. With Theo+Vassalage, you can come out with Combat 2 Shock Keshiks right out the gate, or go for Combat 3 Keshik with an aim for Blitz on the field. HAs are more powerful now with the removal of the -10% City Attack, so this is actually worthwhile to acquire. Combat2 Shock Keshiks are godly, able to take out even mildly promoted Spearmen - their counter unit. Send out Spies to knock out city defenses and your Elite Keshik Stack can take out several cities very quickly.
Of course, since you're using Ger and not GGs to push your Keshik, you can use your GGs on nonGer-cities to produce CR3 Trebs or Swordsmen or Formation Axemen or whatever suits your fancy. Or, make a SuperMedic AND make a SuperKeshik with Blitz, Morale, and added withdrawal chances.
Basically, Vassalage is useful for those situations where you want to push your unit XP past that afforded by Theo, or for some reason have no use for Bureau.
The extra experience can be useful in several other cases even if it doesn't give another promotion directly.
I also like the combination when building seige units. They survive a lot better with CR3 rather than CR2 and only gain 1 exp per win. So starting out with 7 exp is preferable to 5 exp.
The same applies to mounted troops using the flanking 2 promotion. A successful withdrawl only gains 1 exp so starting out with 9 exp (including stable) is much better than 7.
Diamondeye
So Happy I Could Die
And being Charismatic without being Boedica means 2 promos without barracks (Boedicas barracks is cheaper due to AGG), which is nice aswell.
Jet
No, no, please. Please.
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Shove it.
No. If you run Bureacracy you should grow the city large, probably with with Hereditary Rule or the Globe Theater.
Remove Financial and the Cothon from the example I posted. I already told you how much commerce that removes. Remove the floodplains and the Stone if you want.
Artichoker
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This discussion can be quantitative, as well as qualitative...except I don't know the formula for calculating the unit discount for Vassalage.
For Bureaucracy, however, it's fairly straightforward.
There are several parameters, like the slider level, the base commerce in the capital, and science/gold multipliers.
For science/gold multipliers, let's assume pre-Guilds, but post-Currency. So that's +25% gold from the Market. For science, there's +25% from the Library, +50% from the Academy, and (assuming 1 religion) +10% from the Monastery.
So, total multipliers are:
Science +85%
Gold +25%
Obviously, the slider level is also very important. To maximize the effect of multipliers, it should emphasize Science, but this is not always possible. Often, city maintenance and other kinds of maintenance do not allow running more than 50% Science.
Let C be the base commerce of the capital. So the increase in base commerce from Bureaucracy is C/2.
Let S be the fraction of commerce allocated to Science. Assuming the rest goes to gold, then (1-S) is the fraction of commerce allocated to Gold.
So, the gain in beakers is:
(C/2) * S * 1.85 = 0.925 * C * S
And the gain in gold is:
(C/2) * (1 - S) * 1.25 = 0.625 * C * (1 - S)
Now, let's assume that S = 0.40, which is typical for a war-oriented economy.
Gain in beakers is:
0.925 * C * 0.40 = 0.37 * C
Gain in gold is:
0.625 * C * 0.60 = 0.375 * C
So what about C, the base commerce? This will be highly variable. A cottage-heavy capital may have perhaps 10 cottages with 3 commerce each, 6 commerce from other sources including rivers, and 8 commerce from the Palace. That's 44 commerce.
So, assuming C=44,
Gain in beakers is:
0.37 * 44 = 16.3
Gain in gold is:
0.375 * 44 = 16.5
...so the gain in gold is usually higher than the unit discount from Vassalage, for a cottage-heavy capital.
What about a cottage-light capital, with only 3 cottages? With 3 commerce per cottage, that's 3*3 + 6 + 8 = 23 commerce.
Gain in beakers:
0.37 * 23 = 8.5
Gain in gold:
0.375 * 23 = 8.6
...which results in a gold bonus that is typically less than that gained from Vassalage.
Of course, as cottages mature into towns, these numbers will get higher, and extra multiplier buildings will also improve the total bonus...but the Vassalage unit discount will also improve as more cities are captured.
For Bureaucracy, however, it's fairly straightforward.
There are several parameters, like the slider level, the base commerce in the capital, and science/gold multipliers.
For science/gold multipliers, let's assume pre-Guilds, but post-Currency. So that's +25% gold from the Market. For science, there's +25% from the Library, +50% from the Academy, and (assuming 1 religion) +10% from the Monastery.
So, total multipliers are:
Science +85%
Gold +25%
Obviously, the slider level is also very important. To maximize the effect of multipliers, it should emphasize Science, but this is not always possible. Often, city maintenance and other kinds of maintenance do not allow running more than 50% Science.
Let C be the base commerce of the capital. So the increase in base commerce from Bureaucracy is C/2.
Let S be the fraction of commerce allocated to Science. Assuming the rest goes to gold, then (1-S) is the fraction of commerce allocated to Gold.
So, the gain in beakers is:
(C/2) * S * 1.85 = 0.925 * C * S
And the gain in gold is:
(C/2) * (1 - S) * 1.25 = 0.625 * C * (1 - S)
Now, let's assume that S = 0.40, which is typical for a war-oriented economy.
Gain in beakers is:
0.925 * C * 0.40 = 0.37 * C
Gain in gold is:
0.625 * C * 0.60 = 0.375 * C
So what about C, the base commerce? This will be highly variable. A cottage-heavy capital may have perhaps 10 cottages with 3 commerce each, 6 commerce from other sources including rivers, and 8 commerce from the Palace. That's 44 commerce.
So, assuming C=44,
Gain in beakers is:
0.37 * 44 = 16.3
Gain in gold is:
0.375 * 44 = 16.5
...so the gain in gold is usually higher than the unit discount from Vassalage, for a cottage-heavy capital.
What about a cottage-light capital, with only 3 cottages? With 3 commerce per cottage, that's 3*3 + 6 + 8 = 23 commerce.
Gain in beakers:
0.37 * 23 = 8.5
Gain in gold:
0.375 * 23 = 8.6
...which results in a gold bonus that is typically less than that gained from Vassalage.
Of course, as cottages mature into towns, these numbers will get higher, and extra multiplier buildings will also improve the total bonus...but the Vassalage unit discount will also improve as more cities are captured.
Artichoker
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These are all good ideas. You mentioned Charismatic, which seems to be the biggest factor, in my opinion, if you want to go with the Vassalage+Theocracy option.
Because with just a Stable, you're not limited by the number of settled GGs that you have. For instance:
+3 from Barracks
+2 from Vassalage
+2 from Theocracy
+2 from Stable
= 9 XP, which gives you a 4th level mounted unit.
Non-mounted units would be produced from the HE city, with 1 settled GG:
+3 from Barracks
+2 from Vassalage
+2 from Theocracy
+2 from GG
= 9 XP, which gives you a 4th level non-mounted unit.
For non-Charismatic leaders, though, the jump from 7 XP to 4th level is greater (+3 XP required instead of +1 XP). I'm then beginning to think that the additional investment of Theocracy is not as worthwhile as the Charismatic leader.
Perhaps for non-Charismatic leaders, maybe it's better to stay at 5 XP. Two settled GGs could bring you to 9 XP in your HE city, which is a good place to be since it would then require only 1 XP to advance to 4th level (if you had a Stable in your HE city, then they would be 4th level already).
Oh, it is. You just have to know which 4th level units you want. CR3 Cannon are a godsend. I can afford to run alternate Civics as Izzy, but if you want lots of CR3 Cannon as anyone else, you're best advised to go Charismatic and pile on the XP.
Nonmounted units produced from 2 GGs and 2 military centers are great at level 4. You can sac Vassalage or Theo but you'll halve your production sites and possibly risk obsoleting your tech advantage.
And you're right. With the same setup, you can produce mounted level 4s in cities that don't have GGs. Assuming a Gunpowder setup, you can do this:
Draft Muskets. Base XP 3 - level 2, 1 XP to level 3
CR3 Cannon and Formation Pikemen in 2 high Prod cities
Level 4 Cuirassers everywhere else.
I imagine that you'd be able to make quite an impression with that kind of an army.
If I'm playing as Persia or Russia and have the wiggle room, I try for level 5 Mounteds in my HE City. That's Blitz Cuirassers out the gate!
Nonmounted units produced from 2 GGs and 2 military centers are great at level 4. You can sac Vassalage or Theo but you'll halve your production sites and possibly risk obsoleting your tech advantage.
And you're right. With the same setup, you can produce mounted level 4s in cities that don't have GGs. Assuming a Gunpowder setup, you can do this:
Draft Muskets. Base XP 3 - level 2, 1 XP to level 3
CR3 Cannon and Formation Pikemen in 2 high Prod cities
Level 4 Cuirassers everywhere else.
I imagine that you'd be able to make quite an impression with that kind of an army.
If I'm playing as Persia or Russia and have the wiggle room, I try for level 5 Mounteds in my HE City. That's Blitz Cuirassers out the gate!
Artichoker
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Not really. The HE city will have double the production of the second city, assuming equal base hammers. So it's really not halving, but reducing by a third, your production sites.
But you do have a point...elite units produced with a Charismatic leader will be maximized when you run Vassalage+Theocracy.
However, there will be times when one might prefer Organized Religion over Theocracy, and these situations will be more common when you have a non-Charismatic leader. Without Charismatic, you need +4 XP to go from 7 XP to 11 XP. And that requires 2 GGs settled in a single city.
The argument for Vassalage+Theocracy for Charismatic leaders is convincing, especially when backed by mounted units. But don't you need to switch out of Vassalage in order to draft the Muskets?
Yes. That's the last portion of the force that you assemble, also because they're the most prone to obsolescence with Rifling. It's okay to upgrade Cuirassers to Cavalry, IMO. The gp cost is not that high for a small force. Not so easy to upgrade mass-Drafts.
Diamondeye
So Happy I Could Die
Jet, no need to flame. I just tell that I, personally, have never benefited enough from Bureaucracy to argue for using it. In fact, the opposite is the situation. Perhaps with no upkeep, or with always peace, I would do so.
Artichoker
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Jet, your comments in this thread are appreciated.
You've argued for both sides...Vassalage in some situations, and Bureaucracy in others. This is the kind of discussion that adds to the thread, because it shows how players can use each civic, and in what situations.
I have the feeling that many players on this forum are unclear (myself included) about all the subtle factors that can determine whether Vassalage or Bureaucracy is the better choice in the midgame.
Who knows...maybe someone in this forum can find a use for the Vassalage+Pacifism combo...if so, please raise your hand!
You've argued for both sides...Vassalage in some situations, and Bureaucracy in others. This is the kind of discussion that adds to the thread, because it shows how players can use each civic, and in what situations.
I have the feeling that many players on this forum are unclear (myself included) about all the subtle factors that can determine whether Vassalage or Bureaucracy is the better choice in the midgame.
Who knows...maybe someone in this forum can find a use for the Vassalage+Pacifism combo...if so, please raise your hand!
Jet
No, no, please. Please.
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I don't find Vassalage+Pacifism all that strange.
* the costs and savings very roughly cancel out
* suppose you don't have a good Bureau city, for whatever reason
* suppose you want the 5 XP and Vassalage is the best way, for whatever reason
* suppose you really want the great people
For example you could be building 5 XP Catapults for your first war while farming scientists for Liberalism. Both of those are common things to want to do.
If you search through the FE/SE demo and succession games I think you'll find that some of them ran Vassalage+Pacifism sometimes. It looks like "Justinian's University" did, for example.
* the costs and savings very roughly cancel out
* suppose you don't have a good Bureau city, for whatever reason
* suppose you want the 5 XP and Vassalage is the best way, for whatever reason
* suppose you really want the great people
For example you could be building 5 XP Catapults for your first war while farming scientists for Liberalism. Both of those are common things to want to do.
If you search through the FE/SE demo and succession games I think you'll find that some of them ran Vassalage+Pacifism sometimes. It looks like "Justinian's University" did, for example.
Vassalage and Pacifism seems a useful combination of civics for a SE, particularly a Spiritual one, that wants to build units in some cities with the +2 exp and run lots of specialists in other cities to boost GPP production. There is nothing contradictory or even strange about that combination.
Artichoker
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I have a hunch that more than 50% of the forumers never even considered using Vassalage + Pacifism in an actual game. I'll have to try it some time...
I don't plan that kind of combination beforehand, but I've been in at least one game where I opted for that for much the reasons mentioned, and oddly enough, I wasn't even playing a Spiritual Civ. The situation was that I was running Pacifism and was able to trade for Feudalism before even CS or Theocracy was available to me. Having no other option and with an imminent war, Vassalage vs. nothing was a no-contest.
I've used Vassalage + Pacifism to check if the negatives cancel out each other... not really, I'm not sure how free units are calculated under vassalge but I saw my Gold go down as I Produced more units.
I've only used Vassalage in combination with Police State/Representation(Mids) and Free Religion. My economy could handle the extra civic cost and there were two religious factions and my side was losing so I Built the SP wonder (had gold) and switch to free Religon. Attacked and conquered my former friends and later focused on my religious enemies, who were quite friendly at that point but my goal was domination.
I've only used Vassalage in combination with Police State/Representation(Mids) and Free Religion. My economy could handle the extra civic cost and there were two religious factions and my side was losing so I Built the SP wonder (had gold) and switch to free Religon. Attacked and conquered my former friends and later focused on my religious enemies, who were quite friendly at that point but my goal was domination.
I only ran Vassalage + Pacifist once (and that was by mistake - I intended to get Theocracy). I ended up getting a strike when I was pumping out Mech Inf...
Granted, I was playing Toku (no FIN or ORG traits to help out) and used Representation + Merc (I controlled half of the map and was waging a blitz war with the remaining AI and his 2 vassals, so no foreign trade routes whatsoever, and I haven't researched Communism - on hindsight, I should have, I was instead desperately beelining Mech Inf to get a tech lead) and the long war was getting me quite a few angry citizens. I was so immersed with spamming units in every city and blitzing ahead that I forgot to notice the research slider creeping down from 40% when war started to 0% and culture slider from 10% to 0%. And, BAM, my units are on strike!
I sorted it out by swapping into Police State and Theocracy, then, researched Communism asap.
Vassalage + Pacifism during a prolonged war is a sure way of tanking the ecomony in my view.
Granted, I was playing Toku (no FIN or ORG traits to help out) and used Representation + Merc (I controlled half of the map and was waging a blitz war with the remaining AI and his 2 vassals, so no foreign trade routes whatsoever, and I haven't researched Communism - on hindsight, I should have, I was instead desperately beelining Mech Inf to get a tech lead) and the long war was getting me quite a few angry citizens. I was so immersed with spamming units in every city and blitzing ahead that I forgot to notice the research slider creeping down from 40% when war started to 0% and culture slider from 10% to 0%. And, BAM, my units are on strike!
I sorted it out by swapping into Police State and Theocracy, then, researched Communism asap.Vassalage + Pacifism during a prolonged war is a sure way of tanking the ecomony in my view.
I play MP mostly on vanilla but also play Warlords SP so I can not comment on any new concepts in BTS. I generally find in my games that bureaucracy is the better civic to move forward in science with a cottage strategy. I have found that I can get Civil Service by early AD and have a massive boost in GNP which boosts my science. Most of my games, my capital ends up being the top commerce producer and usually one of the most productive. Bureaucracy can also help you in wartime too since your capital gets the 50% hammer bonus which can really come in useful. If you out produce your enemy then it won't really matter if they have better units. Like somebody said earlier, the battles in the middle ages tend to see catapults and later trebs cause collateral damage anyway which kind of negates the promotions. Also, a lot times, geography negates promotions. You can build a big army with bureaucracy against your enemy who has less but higher promoted units and move your army along the hills and forests which essentially gives you the advantage regardless of those promotions.
Whenever I switch to vassalage, I eventually find myself behind in technology or occupying cities, and usually both. Like others have said, I've never been too sure of exactly what kind of free unit bonus you get. Usually the only time I switch to Vassalage is if I make a decision to build up a nice size army for a possible war or in emergency situations. Usually if I have to use it in emergency situations it will be in conjunction with theocracy and slavery. If it comes down to that though I will usually eventually lose or hold them off but will now find myself far behind in technology. I also find that if I'm spiritual I'll just stay with bureaucracy rather than vassalage in general and just make due with theocracy in wartime.
Sometimes I never switch out of bureaucracy even in modern times because of the production boost. Universal Suffrage, bureaucracy, and organized religion equals a very productive capital. With a heroic epic city and my BUR capital that is a lot of quick units being built. In general though, I will switch to Free Speech once it is available and nationalism for emergencies and long drawn out wars.
Whenever I switch to vassalage, I eventually find myself behind in technology or occupying cities, and usually both. Like others have said, I've never been too sure of exactly what kind of free unit bonus you get. Usually the only time I switch to Vassalage is if I make a decision to build up a nice size army for a possible war or in emergency situations. Usually if I have to use it in emergency situations it will be in conjunction with theocracy and slavery. If it comes down to that though I will usually eventually lose or hold them off but will now find myself far behind in technology. I also find that if I'm spiritual I'll just stay with bureaucracy rather than vassalage in general and just make due with theocracy in wartime.
Sometimes I never switch out of bureaucracy even in modern times because of the production boost. Universal Suffrage, bureaucracy, and organized religion equals a very productive capital. With a heroic epic city and my BUR capital that is a lot of quick units being built. In general though, I will switch to Free Speech once it is available and nationalism for emergencies and long drawn out wars.
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