Nobles' Club 348: Roosevelt of America

[antimony]

Spoiler T52-62 :

T61 Pyramids as planned above, followed by 1 turn of anarchy for Representation/Slavery switch.

Workers just finished a cottage NE of capital, one of them should probably road to sheep city (for pre-sailing trade route but more importantly perhaps having city settled 1 turn earlier). Other one would have time to build mine NW of Washington which would allow the city to get 20 hammers/turn towards settlers at size 5, and it probably needs to remain a settler factory for a while, letting go of that NE cottage.

New York granary is at 17/60 with a worker at 39/60. It could 2-pop whip the granary next turn and then finish the worker with the overflow. However, I'm not actually in a rush and would rather let it grow to 5 to do the same, losing less cottage-turns. When it grows back to 5 a 2nd time, the worker can chop the forest E of horse and 2-whip the library. New York should run two scientists to create the first Great Scientist, letting the 2nd great person to Washington (hopefully a GE for Machinery).

Spoiler Big planning time :

Picture below shows my next city locations in approximate order of settling.

S1: Sheep and floodplains, THE science city here. With towns and rep. scientists it can reach 46 raw beakers at size 9. (Of course, my happy cap with Rep. and silver is only 8 here, but I could run 4 scientists at size 8 half of the time to break even with food, or see if some HR switch is possible alongside Caste later.) Will use the single forest in 1st ring to whip-chop granary at size 2 and then 3-whip library at size 6. Needs 2 workers to get started but 1 can keep up with the cottaging given the whip, letting 2nd worker move on to S2.

S2: Dry rice is bad food, BUT we have 2 forests and 2 green hills in 1st ring, can work a mine to 1-whip granary at size 3 and 2-chop library (assuming math at that point). So it can actually grow its border, chop a boat and lighthouse, work 2 more cottages in 2nd ring, all that in 30 turns after settling or so.

(next cities need Math for 30-hammer chops at founding, and Sailing ideally)

S3: Chop the workboat to start, then 2 hammer city centre and silver mine can just build the lighthouse at size 2, saving the 2nd forest to chop a workboat for S4. Needs caste at size 3 to run 2 scientists.

S4: Crab and cottages. Getting the boat supplied from S3 allows chopping the lighthouse with the single 1st ring forest to speed up growth. Goal is size 5 to work 2 cottages and 2 scientists (with caste). Same worker as S3 can take care of this next, so my 3 workers (2 current and the one being built in New York) should be good for a while here.

(next cities need Code of Laws - Caste System at founding)

S5: It feels like I should settle this earlier because it's so close, but it will be so much easier with caste. Just chop workboat and lighthouse, grow to size 4 and work 3 scientists.

S6: 2 crabs in 2nd ring, only one forest. 2nd boat needs to be supplied by S3 or S5.

S7: Pretty far away, might not get to it pre-optics. A few water tiles were not uncovered in the NW tip of the island (outside of picture), but this location doesn't kill any potential seafood there.


With this plan I think I would go for Math before Sailing after Writing, even if I don't road to S2. After Sailing, then Myst-Poly-Priesthood-CoL. After that either IW or MC if I worry about barb galleys.

Great person plan: Washington and New York should get first two. S1 (sheep-FP) will run 4 scientists by turn 100, so 3rd scientist should be easy. The question is whether I can get one from S2 (rice-clam) before that and have S1 pop the 4th one.

 

[Evil Beejeebers]

That's actually a fun start. Fun map for nobles club. All of the peacemonger victories seem possible.

Spoiler The Tundra :

There is a coastal plains hills in the tundra north of Washington. It has solid enough production to be the 3rd city in a culture victory.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

Do you mean the kind where you go all the way to

Spoiler :

Medicine? Sid's Sushi and the environmentalism civic?

 

[Nicol.Bolas]

Hello, this is my spoiler - T110 ( AD75)

Spoiler :

I wasted 3turns to explore, before SIP anway. I was afraid this would lead to some are starved cities, which turned out to be true

at about 1520BC I realized we are isolated. my plan was to go for culture win with early wonder spamming.

at 75 ce
Plan is to make atlanta, philadelphia and washingotn to culture cities.
I´m not sure if it wasn´t a mistake not to start with new york, but seems in long term the city is just too close to capital

wonders I made: chitze itza, oracle, pyramids, temple of artemis
wonders I missed: TGL, great wall.
wonder I plan: collossus, partheon, religious civics wonder.

after I get some culture wonders i plan to do sea exploration

 

[antimony]

Spoiler Up to T90 :

Following the plan, built 3 settlers in capital (for Boston, Philadelphia, Atlanta), then paused to grow while building Library, then one more settler (going to crab-river spot). Starting to feel short on worker turns, so building another worker now. Since next cities need Code of Laws to do anything (need around 10 turns of research or so), I will grow capital next to start running one scientist there.

NY recently grew to 6 to run 2 scientists. Boston just whipped library and Philadelphia, running two mines, will finish both granary and library by T97 with the help of 2 chopping workers. Atlanta is finishing workboat for the next city, worker is roading silver then chopping a forest. Instead of lighthouse, maybe I will build a galley next to defend against the barb galley that can be seen at the northwest. (60% odds is not great but it's probably still worth the try, and a lighthouse doesn't too much if that city is capped at size 3 with one crab either way.)

On the great people plan, I was wrong last post I think, it would be better for Washington to run just enough scientist-turns to beat NY, to maximize GE chances for Machinery bulb. If we get a GS from Washington then the 4th GP is not needed pre-Astro. With a GE from Washington, NY can still get a GS around T120 or faster if we starve a bit, and we can try for 2 more GS from Boston and Philadephia (for Machinery, Optics, Astrox2 bulbs), but that might still be too ambitious.

Since I'm planning for late Alphabet (just to bulb Optics), I need to find something to do with the excess production, but there are MP warriors needed, workboats and eventually triremes, still a few settlers in my capital, then I can also consider failgold production such as Chichen Itza with CoL and stone.

 

[Nicol.Bolas]

Hi, anyone care to help me / criticize my game?

1800AD

Spoiler :

I´m trying to go for cultural victory. But even if I push 100%, which I cań afford, I only get 500 per city. ´m afraid this is too slow to reach 100.000 (or is it 50.000 ?)
Another problem is with great people, due to wonders, I only managed to get 1 artist. I´m now trying to build some corp, but it´ the same issue, too many prophets.

Military wise Carthage and Aztec already attacked, I might lose and regain some cities, but until they start sending infantry and tanks, I should be ok. Destroyers will also be a problem.

From wonders I missed the MOM. and the newer ones. When I first discovered mainland, I was slightly in tech lead.

Should I abandon this culture nonsense and try to attack?

 

[antimony]

Spoiler Up to T130 - Astro :

Got a GE from Washington (Machinery bulb) then 2 GS in New York and Boston (Astro bulb). Settling Chicago was a bit delayed due to needing a galley to counter the barb one (luckily won the fight, then no more barbs spawned). Settled the next 3 cities post CoL as planned and got Optics T123, with two triremes with explorers ready to upgrade and set sail. Teched Alpha and part of Calendar while waiting to meet AI.

Spoiler Diplo / trading situation :

I met Gilgamesh and Darius one turn earlier, traded Compass and change for Currency to Darius and Optics for Construction, Calendar and money from Gilgamesh.

I can get Monarchy for cheap from Pericles who is behind the others in tech, and before I meet whoever is fighting him. Monty and Darius are at war and worst enemies, but both have luxuries I could use.

Interestingly Gilgamesh is willing to trade Engi here. Should I wait a turn and try to get that and Feudalism for Astro? It would send me well on the path to Steel (only Guilds, Gunpowder and half of Chemistry while my 4th GS in philadelphia pops in time to bulb the rest, that is if I avoid CS until then). Other cities are mostly running merchants for increased slider (I could break even at 100% by building enough wealth now.)

In that scenario we're looking at around 20 turns plus teching Steel, so maybe somewhere before 1100 AD, not terrible. I would have to revolt out of caste, probably around the GS pop, and into slavery (plus maybe other switches) to start producing things like muskets, frigates and galleons while waiting for cannons.

Also have one spare settler, is it worth having more cities on my island now with Astro, such as breaking off one crab from San Francisco in the northeast? I'm not sure the 2 trade routes outpace the maintenance plus running less Rep specialists possibly.

 

[antimony]

@Nicol.Bolas Do you have a save from when you were still isolated?

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

Questions to @antimony

Spoiler :

Given known information, how did you assess that trying to go for liberalism is unrealistic? Or is it not useful even if you succeed?

You seem to only have crabs to trade. Once you have chemistry, can you use privateers to pillage everyone's fish and then trade fish to them? The outlying islands might have more fish available? It does mean you have to start using slavery to train galleons and units to kill the barbarians on the islands.

Since you will be using slavery, do you need health resources? All three seafood plus harbour should be enough right?

 

[antimony]

@sylvanllewelyn

Spoiler :

Re: Lib-Steel, I think around 1000 AD is too late for Deity. Also since paper + edu + lib is about as many beakers as guilds + steel, it would only pay off if I could also trade for paper, but no one has it so far with 2 AIs left to meet.

For the resource trades, right now Monty and Darius would trade a dye and a wine respectively for just crab, so that's nice. I would also trade away my stone and marble if I had to, not planning more wonders unless maybe if Notre Dame is available for fail gold.

 

[Nicol.Bolas]

@Nicol.Bolas Do you have a save from when you were still isolated?

thius would be it.

 

[Nicol.Bolas]

cultural victory

Spoiler :

well I won a comfortable cultural victory.
I was confused for some reason and thought I needed 100k culture instead of 50k.

Wonder how much my early wonderspamming helped?

Aztec tried something on the smaller islands . but I was able to defend I think it was usefull to have them as bait.

 

[antimony]

@Nicol.Bolas

Unfortunately I don't have BAT so I couldn't open the save. But some ideas based on your 75 AD screenshots.

Also check those strategy guides by jesusin on cultural victories (I'm not sure if there are more recent guides?)

Cultural Victory on the Higher Levels

This is a compendium of all I know about cultural victories. It is general enough to be valid for all Vanilla, Warlords and BTS. Most of it is probably valid for intermediate and low levels of difficulty too. I hope you enjoy. I would appreciate any comments or disagreements. IMO the cultural...

forums.civfanatics.com

About BTS cultural games on low levels of difficulty

If you are interested in Deity Vanilla Cultural games, you should probably be reading this instead. http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/culture_victory.php I have gained some experience in BTS and in levels around Noble since I wrote that article. But not enough. I will be writing here...

forums.civfanatics.com

Spoiler :

Regarding your city placement and improvements:
- Philadelphia settling on a floodplain (prime cottage location) is not ideal, I think the hill north of sheep is strictly better for that city. Also NY and Philadelphia should have cottages rather than farms on the riverside tiles.
- Crab/silver city (Boston) probably didn't need to be settled that early, it's not one of your 3 cultural cities, silver is not needed early for happiness if you have pyramids, and it will take some time before you grow the border to get the marble (with an IND leader you can build Oracle without marble anyway).
- Having a few double food cities (your Atlanta, Chicago and the rice/clam spot) is a good plan as these will generate most of your great artists.

About wonders:
- The best wonders for cultural victory are those that have high culture points (especially if available early on since they double after 1000 years), that give artist points, and that have a strong effects. Best wonders that produce artist points are Mausoleum, Parthenon, National Epic, Sistine, and finally (once you get Liberalism and use it on Nationalism), Taj Mahal and Hermitage. (Statue of Zeus is a particular case since its main effect is useless, but it has high culture and artist points. And for IND it's somewhat cheap even without ivory.)
- Some other wonders have good effects even if they generate something other than artists. I agree with Oracle (did you use it for Code of Laws?) and Pyramids for your game. Colossus is also probably worth it because you are IND (cheap forges), most good cities are coastal, and you don't need Astro, but I wouldn't build it in one of the strong food cities because you want these to generate 100% artists.
- Chichen Itza and Temple of Artemis are not helping since their effect is not relevant and they generate priest points.

Mathematics in 75 AD suggests to me that your tech pace might be slow. That might be linked to the low number of cottages as I mentioned above, or also too many wonders instead of settling / improving more cities before 1 AD.

- What was your tech path early? After AH I went for the Wheel - Pottery because we have so much production in capital, so commerce is limiting. If the goal was to build Oracle and Pyramids, I assume I would have teched Myst - Mediation - Priesthood after Pottery, tech Writing while building the Oracle so it can pick up Code of Laws for free (and a religion), and only after that Mining - Masonry - Bronze Working while building Pyramids.

I think for a cultural victory here (are you playing at monarch? I don't remember), it's mostly a solo game. You don't want to go for Astro yourself, since AIs will not help you technologically at that level and it just leads to potential diplomatic tensions (since you'll be running your own religion different from theirs). After the early tech path mentioned above, your main targets are Civil Service (1 AD or earlier is usually a good target for this), then Music (many good wonders on the way, and the free artist), and finally Liberalism (definitely aim for before 1000 AD). You may take some detours like Calendar for Mausoleum (even if there are no calendar resources on our island sadly, that wonder is really good), or maybe metal casting for forges and colossus as discussed above. Notably, Alphabet and Currency can be ignored while in isolation.

- What did you use great people on? If you built an early library in New York, your two first great people should be a great scientist from New York and some random GP from Washington (could be priest from Oracle, engineer from Pyramids, or scientist?) It doesn't matter because any GP can be used for the first golden age and the great scientist can research Philosophy for Taoism. But after that you want as many artists as possible, and you want to save them until the end game, so you know how many culture bombs are needed in each city to reach 50,000 as close to each other as possible.

The timing of your first golden age is important because it is when you want to switch civics and religion with no revolt. Usually a good time is around Civil Service, then you can adopt a state religion and Caste System - Pacifism - Bureaucracy all at once. Maybe you are able to build mausoleum before that, so you get a 12-turn golden age and have the capacity to produce a few great artists. On the last turn of the golden age maybe you want to return to slavery and organized religion because you need to build more things in your cities... or you stay in Caste / Pacifism for the artist specialists if you have enough production otherwise between mines and forest chops to get those temples in 9 cities without slavery. These are just ideas, the specific choices are based on how the timing lines up in the game.

 

[Nick723]

In my game, Monty won a diplomatic victory! Not something you see every day…

Went for a peaceful deity space game, but came up short; mainly because Monty ran away with the other continent.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

Apostolic Palace or United Nations diplomatic?

 

[Nick723]

Apostolic Palace or United Nations diplomatic?

UN! It was a Monty sort of diplo victory however, the only folks who voted for him were his subjects…

 

[antimony]

Spoiler To 1460 AD :

First, the situation when I reached Steel (1010 AD)

- Montezuma (13 cities) and Pacal (10 cities) already have Steel and Rifling; Darius (8 cities) and Pericles (4 cities) have banking, gunpowder and nationalism; Gilgamesh (6 cities) is a bit ahead of the last two (Replaceable Parts). Hannibal (7 cities) is comically behind, lacking Code of Laws, Civil Service and Engineering.

- Monty is obviously the main threat here, Pacal could also win cultural with 3 cities about 10k culture right now (though Monty will not let that happen). So my general plan was to switch to their religion (Hindu) and generally keep Monty in particular happy by not taking any vassal, joining his wars, liberating cities if available, etc.

I was planning to attack Sumeria first, before he gets rifling, and to take the GLH in Uruk which would help the economy. Sadly he peace-vassals to the Aztec as my fleet (15 muskets + 20 cannons or so) is on its way, so I pivot towards Persia, the strongest member of the Buddhist alliance. Took all of Darius' main block of cities (6, the other 2 are conquests from Carthage far away) and make peace in exchange for Replaceable Parts. Got the Buddhist AP (Gilgamesh is resident but can't win that way as Monty and Pacal don't have the religion). Also picked up Versailles which will help keep the economy afloat. In the meantime Monty declares on Pacal with a stack of about 80 (rifles/grenadiers/knights/cannons), I join and grab two shrine cities (+50 gold) before Pacal capitulates to Monty.

Now just got Rifling and in the process of conquering Greece (Sumeria also just freed itself from the Aztec). I have 19 cities and the Aztec have 16, but he has nearly 50% of the world population and 40% land. Unfortunately Monty is plotting again and not friendly yet (it's going to be hard with a -2 first impression and now -1 from borders, already maxed +3 religion and +4 trade, and no city gifts counting as liberation). At least it doesn't seem to be against me yet as his troops are passing through.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

@antimony

Spoiler :

Since you have the Buddhist holy city, would you move your capital, switch to Buddhism, and start stealing techs from Pacal? Espionage is cheaper than direct research.

 

[AcaMetis]

Spoiler :

Switching to Buddhism while a monster Monty, who is now on your borders after attacking one of his religious allies, is running Hinduism seems...unwise .

 

[antimony]

Spoiler :

Yup, not switching to Buddhism unless it's one turn from an AP victory vote that I'm sure to win. But we're not there yet.

It's a bit shocking btw that Monty's shared religion bonus maxes at +3. Dude has no chill.