Quarky
Prince
If we are talking re-match perhaps Quarky should take France
I don't have a problem with that actually.. Don't think I will do any better than Soul Warrior, but am happy to play as any nation
Liberty, Equality, Fraternity - Civ3 Conquests scenario
- Thread starter Quarky
- Start date
I don't have a problem with that actually.. Don't think I will do any better than Soul Warrior, but am happy to play as any nation
soul_warrior
Termite!
wartime production, straight outta compton!
higher AI level - reasonable enough.
french monarchy, yes please.
no war production?
ok.mpp laws, check
soul_warrior
Termite!
maybe i can do russia or ottomans when-if we rematch?
ahh, that safe feeling you have when you have your back to the wall! not surrounded by humans either
ahh, that safe feeling you have when you have your back to the wall! not surrounded by humans either
Quarky
Prince
I guess just no wartime for Great Britain then?
Oh, and no trading of tech's? But taking via spies is allowed?
Quarky
Prince
Guys, I am now away until Thursday... If you want to start one, I am happy with any country (well almost, Sweden is right out of the question!!). Otherwise see you later in the week.
I have been looking at some of the at start game numbers which has given me a little more insight into how this scenario could be fixed for PBEM;
Britain & France start with around 50% more shield production than the other nations. Exceptions are Spain (16%) and Sweden (275%!!!).
One possible fix is to give some of the British/French allies away (e.g. Denmark/Amsterdam to Sweden etc.or even amalgamate Sweden with Prussia) - Sweden has around 40 uncorrupted shields but this would likely drop after corruption is recalculated.
In addition it is possible to remove the war weariness penalty from Republic government, only France should be allowed to use the Republic though. This combined with their elite units should restore fear of France to the monarchies.
Another option with allied nations (ie controlled by Britain/France) is to have no barracks in their cities so that their troops are inferior to the ones produced at home making them more easily overrun at the beginning of the game .
UUs present a different set of problems Id like to make a Guerilla for Spain; weak in attack/defense but treating all terrain as road (and possibly invisible!) the Austrian infantry could have an extra damage point to reflect their larger unit size (and possibly have their attack increased by one to 5). But I have no idea what Prussia and Sweden should get to balance their awful elite units with the others.
Another factor in balancing the scenario is how many bordering nations they have
Prussia = 5
Sweden = 4
Austria = 4
France = 3 (4 if you include their ally)
Russia = 3
Britain = 2 (4 if you count their allies) (3-5 if you include Sweden)
The Ottomans = 2 (3 if you count Italy)
From this you can see the weakest countries Prussia/Sweden/Austria have the most potential threats.
Sweden needs to be either considerably strengthened or amalgamated with other(s). Britain has perhaps the best defence (for its core cities anyhow) whilst France has to guard against attack from any direction.
In conclusion Id like to;
1. either amalgamate Sweden with Prussia/Russia or combine Sweden with Denmark & Amsterdam.
2. remove war weariness from Republic and limit that government to France only
3. improve the Austrian grenzer(?) to elite status (ie an extra damage point) and increase its attack to 5
4. Remove Barracks from allied nations at start they can be built though (although possibly at an increased cost)
5. Increase the Prussian Fusilier to 5 attack
Most of these mods should be easy enough to carry out, so they wouldn't delay the new game by much. Though it should be considered a work in progress.
Thoughts and comments please.
Britain & France start with around 50% more shield production than the other nations. Exceptions are Spain (16%) and Sweden (275%!!!).
One possible fix is to give some of the British/French allies away (e.g. Denmark/Amsterdam to Sweden etc.or even amalgamate Sweden with Prussia) - Sweden has around 40 uncorrupted shields but this would likely drop after corruption is recalculated.
In addition it is possible to remove the war weariness penalty from Republic government, only France should be allowed to use the Republic though. This combined with their elite units should restore fear of France to the monarchies.
Another option with allied nations (ie controlled by Britain/France) is to have no barracks in their cities so that their troops are inferior to the ones produced at home making them more easily overrun at the beginning of the game .
UUs present a different set of problems Id like to make a Guerilla for Spain; weak in attack/defense but treating all terrain as road (and possibly invisible!) the Austrian infantry could have an extra damage point to reflect their larger unit size (and possibly have their attack increased by one to 5). But I have no idea what Prussia and Sweden should get to balance their awful elite units with the others.
Another factor in balancing the scenario is how many bordering nations they have
Prussia = 5
Sweden = 4
Austria = 4
France = 3 (4 if you include their ally)
Russia = 3
Britain = 2 (4 if you count their allies) (3-5 if you include Sweden)
The Ottomans = 2 (3 if you count Italy)
From this you can see the weakest countries Prussia/Sweden/Austria have the most potential threats.
Sweden needs to be either considerably strengthened or amalgamated with other(s). Britain has perhaps the best defence (for its core cities anyhow) whilst France has to guard against attack from any direction.
In conclusion Id like to;
1. either amalgamate Sweden with Prussia/Russia or combine Sweden with Denmark & Amsterdam.
2. remove war weariness from Republic and limit that government to France only
3. improve the Austrian grenzer(?) to elite status (ie an extra damage point) and increase its attack to 5
4. Remove Barracks from allied nations at start they can be built though (although possibly at an increased cost)
5. Increase the Prussian Fusilier to 5 attack
Most of these mods should be easy enough to carry out, so they wouldn't delay the new game by much. Though it should be considered a work in progress.
Thoughts and comments please.
I have created BIQ file(s) with these changes
Reasoning behind the suggested changes;
I wanted to make the scenario more balanced for PBEM whilst not turning it into a scenario that had no relation to the actual Europe of 1800-15.
Things which the PBEM highlighted included ‘locked wars’ don’t work very well in multiplayer unless the players are in two teams. France having to endure anarchy when it changes govt essentially cripples them for the rest of the game unless they are lucky with the length of anarchy. Britain’s position is so strong they don’t need to enlist any help to win! Republic isn’t a war government and France are in always war! Historically France was attacked by other nations, unlikely if those nations have inferior quality troops and weaker economies. Only France can threaten Britain’s core cities before Britain becomes too strong. France is unlikely to be able to carve out an empire within the historical time frame.
1. either amalgamate Sweden with Prussia/Russia or combine Sweden with Denmark & Amsterdam.
reduces French/British production and makes Sweden a credible opponent. Helps France in so much as Denmark is no longer a distraction and weakens the British position on the continent, gives Britain a rival in the North Sea. Alternatively strengthens Prussia/Austria whilst also forcing Britain to protect it’s Eastern coast.
Options include:
a. Greater Sweden: Sweden gains the Danish cities as well as Helsinki and Amsterdam France loses four cities but there is no British base on the north of the continent opening the option of France concentrating it’s efforts in the south.
b. Swedish-Prussian Hegemony: Sweden’s cities pass to Prussia Denmark remains as a French ally, Britain has to consider the possibility of an invasion across the North Sea much more seriously.
c. Baltic/Balkan re-distribution; Sweden’s cities go to Prussia, Oslo goes to Russia, Posen(?)& Leipzig(?) go to Austria, one of Austria’s south-eastern cities to the Ottomans Essentially moves everyone to the north with Prussia gaining 4 cities (including a VP location), in exchange for two productive cities for Austria. The Ottomans and Russia only gain marginally due to corruption. France loses a city which is pretty isolated anyway.
2. remove war weariness from Republic and limit that government to France only
simulates the continental system and gives a clear distinction to French Republic vs European Monarchies by removing war weariness a French Republican empire becomes a real danger
3. improve the Austrian grenzer(?) to ‘elite status’ (ie an extra damage point) and increase it’s attack to 5
Austrian Infantry now have a real chance to overwhelm pre-Guard defenders by out lasting them and will be difficult to brush aside, forcing campaigns against them to be more about manoeuvre.
4. Remove Barracks from allied nations at start and increase their build cost (+50%?)
Allows a clear distinction between Home forces and their allies, the allied nations now need the French/British core troops to help hold out. This can only be overcome by time and money as they learn from the leaders of the alliances. Also makes Barracks a prime target and encourages strategic campaigns to destroy the enemies ability to wage an effective war.
5. Increase the Prussian Fusilier to 5 attack
Better than Spanish/Swedish troops but worse than Russian etc. The only other possibility is to give Prussia an economic advantage of some sort.
I have found graphics for Horse Artillery but it will take a while before I am confident with adding new units to a scenario.
I plan to make it available with Artillery Tactics and it would be (8)-0-2 and require Horses, Saltpetre and Iron
When I can find graphics for guerrillas they would be 2-3-1 but use road movement and be invisible.. It is a shame that Civ2’s guerrilla system can’t be reproduced. Spain would start with a small number (3-5?) of these units but be unable to produce any more, giving the enemies of Spain strong motivation to hunt them down.
I have also given some thought to civs in locked wars and players could be ‘encouraged’ to pursue these more vigorously by modifying the victory conditions with ‘house’ rules such as;
1. Players in a locked war must occupy the enemies capital (or a number of the enemies starting cities for example the % used to determine domination victory) at the end of the game (whilst retaining their own) in order to win, in addition to the other victory conditions.
So Britain would have to capture either 8* French cities or Paris (France would have to capture 9* British cities or London) as well as satisfying one of the other victory conditions. Each city lost to the enemy would increase the number of cities required to win. (e.g. if the British lost Amsterdam they would require 9 French cities).
* Based on 20 French and 22 British cities at start and 40% required from domination.
Such a condition should ensure no back room deals between locked-war nations
Another possibility is to remove the VP condition for Britain & France (i.e. domination victory only)
Reasoning behind the suggested changes;
I wanted to make the scenario more balanced for PBEM whilst not turning it into a scenario that had no relation to the actual Europe of 1800-15.
Things which the PBEM highlighted included ‘locked wars’ don’t work very well in multiplayer unless the players are in two teams. France having to endure anarchy when it changes govt essentially cripples them for the rest of the game unless they are lucky with the length of anarchy. Britain’s position is so strong they don’t need to enlist any help to win! Republic isn’t a war government and France are in always war! Historically France was attacked by other nations, unlikely if those nations have inferior quality troops and weaker economies. Only France can threaten Britain’s core cities before Britain becomes too strong. France is unlikely to be able to carve out an empire within the historical time frame.
1. either amalgamate Sweden with Prussia/Russia or combine Sweden with Denmark & Amsterdam.
reduces French/British production and makes Sweden a credible opponent. Helps France in so much as Denmark is no longer a distraction and weakens the British position on the continent, gives Britain a rival in the North Sea. Alternatively strengthens Prussia/Austria whilst also forcing Britain to protect it’s Eastern coast.
Options include:
a. Greater Sweden: Sweden gains the Danish cities as well as Helsinki and Amsterdam France loses four cities but there is no British base on the north of the continent opening the option of France concentrating it’s efforts in the south.
b. Swedish-Prussian Hegemony: Sweden’s cities pass to Prussia Denmark remains as a French ally, Britain has to consider the possibility of an invasion across the North Sea much more seriously.
c. Baltic/Balkan re-distribution; Sweden’s cities go to Prussia, Oslo goes to Russia, Posen(?)& Leipzig(?) go to Austria, one of Austria’s south-eastern cities to the Ottomans Essentially moves everyone to the north with Prussia gaining 4 cities (including a VP location), in exchange for two productive cities for Austria. The Ottomans and Russia only gain marginally due to corruption. France loses a city which is pretty isolated anyway.
2. remove war weariness from Republic and limit that government to France only
simulates the continental system and gives a clear distinction to French Republic vs European Monarchies by removing war weariness a French Republican empire becomes a real danger
3. improve the Austrian grenzer(?) to ‘elite status’ (ie an extra damage point) and increase it’s attack to 5
Austrian Infantry now have a real chance to overwhelm pre-Guard defenders by out lasting them and will be difficult to brush aside, forcing campaigns against them to be more about manoeuvre.
4. Remove Barracks from allied nations at start and increase their build cost (+50%?)
Allows a clear distinction between Home forces and their allies, the allied nations now need the French/British core troops to help hold out. This can only be overcome by time and money as they learn from the leaders of the alliances. Also makes Barracks a prime target and encourages strategic campaigns to destroy the enemies ability to wage an effective war.
5. Increase the Prussian Fusilier to 5 attack
Better than Spanish/Swedish troops but worse than Russian etc. The only other possibility is to give Prussia an economic advantage of some sort.
I have found graphics for Horse Artillery but it will take a while before I am confident with adding new units to a scenario.
I plan to make it available with Artillery Tactics and it would be (8)-0-2 and require Horses, Saltpetre and Iron
When I can find graphics for guerrillas they would be 2-3-1 but use road movement and be invisible.. It is a shame that Civ2’s guerrilla system can’t be reproduced. Spain would start with a small number (3-5?) of these units but be unable to produce any more, giving the enemies of Spain strong motivation to hunt them down.
I have also given some thought to civs in locked wars and players could be ‘encouraged’ to pursue these more vigorously by modifying the victory conditions with ‘house’ rules such as;
1. Players in a locked war must occupy the enemies capital (or a number of the enemies starting cities for example the % used to determine domination victory) at the end of the game (whilst retaining their own) in order to win, in addition to the other victory conditions.
So Britain would have to capture either 8* French cities or Paris (France would have to capture 9* British cities or London) as well as satisfying one of the other victory conditions. Each city lost to the enemy would increase the number of cities required to win. (e.g. if the British lost Amsterdam they would require 9 French cities).
* Based on 20 French and 22 British cities at start and 40% required from domination.
Such a condition should ensure no back room deals between locked-war nations
Another possibility is to remove the VP condition for Britain & France (i.e. domination victory only)
soul_warrior
Termite!
valid point all.
care to lets us see a minimap for reference?
care to lets us see a minimap for reference?
Quarky
Prince
Nice. However, I am not too sure about the changing of some of the cities. The countries will never be fair, and there will always be relative weakness and strengths. By changing the war-weariness setting for France, I think that makes a big difference, but some of the city changes may unbalance things a little too much.
Still, I will bow to your superior experience, and am more than willing to give it a go. When do we start?
Still, I will bow to your superior experience, and am more than willing to give it a go. When do we start?
adyyc
Roman
I would like to start a Napoleonic Scenario... but
I will start a new one or i may join the new one, but i dont really like too much changes to scenario.
My preference order is France, Austria , Russia , Ottomans (in this order).
I will start a new one or i may join the new one, but i dont really like too much changes to scenario.
My preference order is France, Austria , Russia , Ottomans (in this order).
Some thoughts and observations
The easiest change is probably one of the following
I'd like to see some of the other nations given a little help as they will quickly fall behind in techs if we use the no tech trading rule. This combined with their weaker units is quite a handicap. In terms of inital economic strength the countries are as follows;
Prussia 102 shields 136 net gold
best unit is Curriassier 5-4-2
Russia 103 shields 84 net gold
best units Cossack 5-2-3, Jager 4-5-1, Guard 6-6-1
France 166 shields 274 net gold
best units Imperial Cavalry 8-4-2, Imperial Guard 8-8-1 Their at start Voltigeur 6-5-1 aren't bad either
Britain 146 shields 166 net gold
best units Household Cavalry 7-4-2, Lifeguard 7-7-1 Their at start Redcoats 6-5-1 aren't bad either. They also get superior warships with which to deter invasion.
Spain 124 shields 144 net gold
strong economy balanced by weak units Cavalry 5-2-2, Soldado 3-4-1
Ottomans 114 shields 103 net gold
best units Siphai 5-3-2, Jannisary 5-5-1 their musket upgrade is the same as the Soldado.
Austria 108 shields 120 net gold
best units Hussars 6-4-2, Grenzers 4-4-1
Sweden...what is it in the game for? It's that weak kid everyone picks on
shields are uncorrupted shields and all figures relate to at start
I'd suggest the weaker nations be allowed to trade with the AI, this way players can't co-ordinate their research to get a big tech lead.
I think Britain,France & Russia are already quite strong but the others should be able to trade techs (with the AI only). Whilst Russia has a weaker economy they can support a quite large army and get some very good units.
Because of it's strong starting position Britian should be prohibited from declaring war on any other nation until it has met certain conditions such as capture of a number of French cities. Britain can still pursue to the full any war declared upon them however.
The easiest change is probably one of the following
- Start France in Monarchy (Helps France as they do not have to suffer a lengthy periord of Anarchy)
- Eliminate the War Weariness from the Republic only France may use Republic (Republic is supposed to be the best govt except for the WW) helps France alot
- Give France the Religious trait to reduce how much time it can spend in Anarchy
I'd like to see some of the other nations given a little help as they will quickly fall behind in techs if we use the no tech trading rule. This combined with their weaker units is quite a handicap. In terms of inital economic strength the countries are as follows;
Prussia 102 shields 136 net gold
best unit is Curriassier 5-4-2
Russia 103 shields 84 net gold
best units Cossack 5-2-3, Jager 4-5-1, Guard 6-6-1
France 166 shields 274 net gold
best units Imperial Cavalry 8-4-2, Imperial Guard 8-8-1 Their at start Voltigeur 6-5-1 aren't bad either
Britain 146 shields 166 net gold
best units Household Cavalry 7-4-2, Lifeguard 7-7-1 Their at start Redcoats 6-5-1 aren't bad either. They also get superior warships with which to deter invasion.
Spain 124 shields 144 net gold
strong economy balanced by weak units Cavalry 5-2-2, Soldado 3-4-1
Ottomans 114 shields 103 net gold
best units Siphai 5-3-2, Jannisary 5-5-1 their musket upgrade is the same as the Soldado.
Austria 108 shields 120 net gold
best units Hussars 6-4-2, Grenzers 4-4-1
Sweden...what is it in the game for? It's that weak kid everyone picks on
shields are uncorrupted shields and all figures relate to at start
I'd suggest the weaker nations be allowed to trade with the AI, this way players can't co-ordinate their research to get a big tech lead.
I think Britain,France & Russia are already quite strong but the others should be able to trade techs (with the AI only). Whilst Russia has a weaker economy they can support a quite large army and get some very good units.
Because of it's strong starting position Britian should be prohibited from declaring war on any other nation until it has met certain conditions such as capture of a number of French cities. Britain can still pursue to the full any war declared upon them however.
Quarky
Prince
I like option 2 for France (mod republic for WW), and agree with the tech trading guidelines.
In terms of war, the rule about GB not being able to attack unless attacked is also good and kind of fitting with the times.
In terms of war, the rule about GB not being able to attack unless attacked is also good and kind of fitting with the times.
Blaze Injun
Night Radio KYSE
- Joined
- Feb 3, 2005
- Messages
- 4,918
Hey,
#2 is a nice quick fix. I like & the trade changes.
Also the G.B. restriction for war works. But say what if Prussia asks for help against Russia. Could G.B. go to war?
Here is a truth about me playing Austria. I never declared on GB because of that Lifeguard 7-7-1 or France because of the Imperial Cavalry 8-4-2, Imperial Guard 8-8-1. Austria's Hussars might work have worked but without grand battery support they'd never stand a chance.
Even with a load of genzers 4-4-1 & grand batteries they are outmatched.
Anyway lets get something down and get a Warring!!
I'll play the British or the French.
Blaze Injun
#2 is a nice quick fix. I like & the trade changes.
Also the G.B. restriction for war works. But say what if Prussia asks for help against Russia. Could G.B. go to war?
Here is a truth about me playing Austria. I never declared on GB because of that Lifeguard 7-7-1 or France because of the Imperial Cavalry 8-4-2, Imperial Guard 8-8-1. Austria's Hussars might work have worked but without grand battery support they'd never stand a chance.
Even with a load of genzers 4-4-1 & grand batteries they are outmatched.
Anyway lets get something down and get a Warring!!
I'll play the British or the French.
Blaze Injun
Quarky
Prince
I kind of like that though. Napoleon had a habit of defeating vastly superior (numerically) armies, and it does reflect that to some degree. Trust me, even for the British, those Imperial Guard units are a right pain.
I agree, lets get started
soul_warrior
Termite!
quite.I agree, lets get started
modifications so far seem fair.
im for just removing the WW from republic, and letting france be the only one with it.
Now here's a funny thing I was also scared of the British and French forces. The reason why the Prussian frontier was so well fortified and garrisoned. However when the French SoD appeared it could be defeated by those 4 point defenders along with a handful of GBs.
The French SoD
Defence of 4 +75% (city+fortified) is a defence of 7! As for Barricaded fortresses!! On a hill +225%.
Biggest problem for the weaker countries is launching an attack that can triumph against Britain, France or even Russia with 5 or 6 point attacks, without GBs it would be impossible.
In the last game Austria and Prussia were lucky in getting armies early (especially Austria) which helped them overcome those 6-8 point defenders.
The French SoD
Defence of 4 +75% (city+fortified) is a defence of 7! As for Barricaded fortresses!! On a hill +225%.
Biggest problem for the weaker countries is launching an attack that can triumph against Britain, France or even Russia with 5 or 6 point attacks, without GBs it would be impossible.
In the last game Austria and Prussia were lucky in getting armies early (especially Austria) which helped them overcome those 6-8 point defenders.
Quarky
Prince
Still think it was a fix that I didn't get an army for the entire campaign.. 
adyyc
Roman
If you want me in i'd like to play Ottomans or Austria (they have parts from today Romania as Sibiu and Sulina for example).
I agree with most of the rules until there are not territory changes. And of course the scenario must have preserve random seed option checked.
I may sugest Grenzers (and Prussia equivalent) have 4-5-1 +10 shields unit cost or 3-5-1 (no unit cost changes), as they are defensive units.
I agree with most of the rules until there are not territory changes. And of course the scenario must have preserve random seed option checked.
I may sugest Grenzers (and Prussia equivalent) have 4-5-1 +10 shields unit cost or 3-5-1 (no unit cost changes), as they are defensive units.
Quarky
Prince
I am up for Russia/Austria/Spain.
Greygamer, do you want to start a new thread for the new game?
Greygamer, do you want to start a new thread for the new game?
soul_warrior
Termite!
ill go as anything, EXCEPT France
link here for the new thread, ok, GG?
link here for the new thread, ok, GG?
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