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Liberty openings informed by the Tradition 4 cities opening

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by knighterrant81, Jun 9, 2013.

  1. BrokTheFanatic

    BrokTheFanatic Warlord

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    I agree. In fact, a nice change to the tree would be to switch Representation and Collective rule. I would then go for teh free worker follwoed by the free settler, which would be great. As is, I normally make or buy at least 1 settler before I get Collective rule because it normally works out better.

    I also find stealing workers and slowing an AI is better than building a wonder, though on large/huge maps an AI is not always close so then a wonder is not a bad idea.
     
  2. Justice1337

    Justice1337 Sofa King

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    Yeah overall, the GP from the finisher is pretty versatile. I usually get a GE for either Hagia Sophia, Great Mosque or Machu Piccu, but if I get Desert Folklore I usually don't need wonders to help religion. Also if I am Maya I might grab one GE through Long Count for a wonder, then build extra Academies with Scientists since Scientists are hard to get as Maya. Maya and France are two that I would nearly always go Liberty with. If I find a culture yielding Natural Wonder or open a Cultural Pantheon I am also going Liberty. Otherwise, finishing Liberty for a Prophet makes for a very late religion, and there is a bit of a gap between Classical and Industrial for good Wonders in Wide, Forbidden Palace being the only real exception.


    As for happiness, I think it does take a little while to get used to the whole thing. Early happiness that keeps you expanding needs to be easy to come by. It takes time to activate road networks for Meritocracy. Religion isn't always avaiable, but nothing beats opening Asceticism when it's possible. But then problems come up when you're past the expanding phase and you need to start building happiness buffers so that you can conquer. Taking happiness on the cheap means that you probably didn't get a huge volume of it. The only solution really is to just get tons of stuff, ally some mercantiles, and shoot for some happiness policies.


    And on religion, I think I tend to do it differently than most people. When I go wide, I don't think religious buildings end up being worth it. It is a ton of faith to put them in each city. So I'll just hit Asceticism or Religious Center, another follower that isn't a faith dump, then get a powerful founder like Tithe or Community Property. With that, I'll use a lot of my faith output for Missionaries and focus on spreading to foreign territory. With a good faith generating setup like Desert Folklore or Pyramids and a good Enhancer, you can compete with the AI's religion spread even at high levels. That done, gold input can be really good by T150 and then you can just leverage that gold into more happiness via CS or buildings. If I grab Pagodas, I find that I either have enough Faith for the buildings in each city, or for foreign spread, but not both. Pagodas take a really long time to repay the Faith investment, and by that time you're in Renaissance or Industrial, Missionaries are very expensive, and foreign religions have already taken over.
     
  3. Tabarnak

    Tabarnak R.I.P.

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    There is a kind of similar way that most payers do :

    3 cities then NC...but what after?

    After the NC, let's say...around the turn 70-80, your capital should be around 6-8 :c5citizen:. Maybe 1 or 2 :c5citizen: more under Tradition and generating more food. So, when it's time to start another expansion, the Citizen Ship policy will still make your capital build settlers faster but not by a large margin. The difference is small and the bonus(not the free settler) is kind of wasted.

    This is why Liberty should be used for 2 different ways to start the game(in a optimal way) :

    1) GL and/or NC then settlers spam(open free worker first)
    2) REX and units--->war(open free settler first, favourite Liberty warmonger mp players approach)

    If you stay in the middle, you better go with Tradition. Both trees can let you build 6-7 CBs around the turn 55 and both trees will let you get Machinery around the turn 100 as well. Reason is simple, while you have to build monuments in newer cities, you can build archers under Tradition, compensating for the lack of free settler/worker.

    Like tommynt said, you must determine which tree will bring you the best output in function of your goal and settings. If you play duels, Liberty is a no brainer because there is no AI but also no cs makes Tradition a lot more painful to start(can't milk to dilute strengh of Liberty freebies). Freebies play a larger role under these settings.
     
  4. atreas

    atreas King

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    I agree 100%, and I almost always go for the 2nd approach. But I want just to add another general parameter that I use in the few cases I deviate from my favorite Liberty, which I feel it has some merit.

    The point is I look at the tiles of the capital (although with Liberty you go for many cities, the capital is still your cornerstone). In general, two very usual cases are (I omit salt because IMO it is OP by far):

    1. City on a hill with plantation resources (in 99% of the cases it will be some grassland tiles or rivers). City will have lots of food in any case, but 0 production IMO - in this case I go 100% for Liberty, otherwise everything will take ages to build.

    2. Mined resources, like gems, gold, silver. In this case the capital will have production anyway, but food will be a huge problem. In this case I go Tradition, with a heavy heart I admit, but I feel I must do it thinking long-term.
     
  5. Justice1337

    Justice1337 Sofa King

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    Yeah, I agree there's definitely a dilemma between Collective Rule and the NC.

    As mentioned, lots of players will just REX and war, never buidling the NC. I think this is viable in MP, but in SP on higher difficulties, larger maps, you need at least one Observatory city to get there. The beakers to get to that tech are a problem, but once it's built, the Observatory bonus = the NC bonus. Hopefully you can Academy all your Scientists there. Even so, early Science is a real problem. But all in all, it is possible to pull off with the Mayan due to their Pyramids, and still, a lot of your weight will be carried by War. So civ's that have powerhouse Renaissance UU's like Arabia can probably do this as well. The problem is that players will try to do this and not know how, when it really does require a lot of unorthodox city stagnating, some city specialization, and a very, very aggresssive posture.

    The other option above is buildng the NC and only then starting the Settler spam, Worker first. I think that leaves a lot of players feeling that the opening lacked power. This opening will only have 1 or 2 cities more than a Tradition opener on T80, and the benefits of Liberty really only come on the condition that 6+ Settlers can be trained. Otherwise, most of the benefit from Liberty has to be seen as coming from Republic, Representation and the Finisher, which although underestimated, are going to be worse than Tradition a lot of the time.

    One thing I have tried as the Maya, however, is opening Collective Rule and buidling a delayed NC and Observatory in my second city. I might have around 4-5 cities at this point, financing a Library in the last. It's a slightly later timing, but the Settlers definitely come out quicker from the Capital in the meantime, and then while the NC is building they travel to the square I want them to settle, furthest areas first. I'll escort them, then if any civ's happen to come with Settlers during that time I am usually ok to DoW them, picking up a free Worker. The staggered timing allows me to send Settlers to a lot of the coastal or Island locations without losing turns I'd otherwise have spent in transit. Then I get a few religion benefits on-line, connect cities for the eventual Meritocracy, and otherwise prepare for the huge happiness dip when they all settle. When the NC goes down, 3-4 cities will be planted that turn, which usually brings me to about -10 happiness as the Luxuries are getting up.

    I wouldn't say this is possible a lot of the time, but some map features make it optimal. First, I want more than one 3 food tile along with plenty of hills nearby so that city 2 can get enough production early enough. Marble helps. Most importantly, I will plant this city next to a Mountain for the Observatory later on, with the intent of settling my Academies there. Also, I have to be able settle this city within 3 tiles of my capital, for the purposes of sharing Academies, or the early Manufactory from Long Count. Since 4-5 Pyramids are going strong, the Manufactory usually comes on-line about mid-way through the NC build. But definitely I want to found my Academies overlapping the Capital and city 2, so that the Cap can use the Academies before then. I might consider putting the first Academy on a sheep tile in city 2 so that Production isn't as affected by working, but I have not tried that as yet. Also, the timing could possibly be delayed into a very late NC + Observatory at around Education as well if I really have to rush military or territory. But the general principle is to make up for an early NC by compounding it with the Observatory bonus in City 2, further down the line. In that game, the Capital is the Military/Settler production powerhouse, and the second city is the Science generator.

    I haven't tried it for any other civ, but I would definitely consider it for Babylon, Egypt (GL opener), Inca, and maybe France. Any civ that has good early Science, Food, or Production bonuses could pull this off, as well as any civ that's naturally good at going wide. But the main thing is that it's quite dependant on terrain. You have to have a good food location next to a Luxury and a Mountain, ideally overlapping your Capital's borders in one or more workable squares. But 3-million world age gives that often enough that I find myself trying it more and more.
     
  6. Tabarnak

    Tabarnak R.I.P.

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    You can always use the free ge from Liberty to rush NC. But if your capital will stay below 10 :c5citizen: for a very long time then the difference will be negligible. glory7 used his tactic in this game.

    Forgot to say that a Pyramids start with settlers spam can be very powerful too...(remembered from glory7's game) Major problem is to find a way to include this wonder with all these settlers. You need a strong capital and a bit of luck(at deity at least).

    You have time to build a wonder with 1 city pre-NC under Liberty but you also have time to build one too before reaching Collective Rule if you REX right of the bat(but you probably need to buy/steal an early worker and high levels work well with this approach).
     
  7. Jelster

    Jelster Prince

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    I recently played a game as England on a solitary Island start surrounded by sea resources.

    I went Liberty and rushed NC, then built 2 other cities with God of the Seas pantheon. It took time but this came very strong mid game when all my coastal sites has Sea Ports. I used the free settler to get my 2nd city ready to drop just as I completed NC, and the free worker was used to farm.

    I don't think in this case tradition would have been as strong. I was, within reason, limited to space because I was on an Island, and needed to build everything myself as I had nobody to trade with.
     
  8. Justice1337

    Justice1337 Sofa King

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    I think I would feel like too much of a putz using a Liberty GE on the NC. You have to compare that to the Science output from an Academy you could get instead. If you never, ever get to build the NC otherwise, then the NC is better than an Academy through the long of the game, of course. But if it's just a question of putting it off until later, like T100'ish, then the Academy is just as good in the short term - 8 Science v. 7.5-9 Science in a size 6-8 capital. And of course having both is better in the long term. Especially as Maya where Scientists are hard to come by, I think it's a mistake to get anything else from the finisher. The only time I have taken a GE as Maya is where I had a good Desert off-city for Petra and had to beat an AI to it. Even then, I felt halfway bad about it.

    Of course other civ's, particularly Babylon, want a GE nearly every game, either for Hagia Sophia or some other Wonder. I can see the NC going in there instead, but it's still a hard case to argue given the fact that you can delay it and still get it built. I think you're really only missing out on it once Universities come, you begin to slot Scientists, and a size 8 city starts putting out around 20 base Beakers. Before then, I think the reason it's prioritized so highly in standard openings is because it's so slow to get to Education without some kind of extra beakers otherwise. When there are other, civ specific ways to get an early Academy instead, I think it can be safely delayed without losing many turns on Education.


    That was a good Diety challenge in the link. I like it how the guy who chose Liberty crushed it, then everyone was surprised.

    Building a very early Pyramids is great for Liberty openers. Whenever I find myself hard-building a Worker in the Capital I think for a while about whether to build Pyramids instead. If I end up building more than one, Pyramids is always better. The single Worker that you can steal from a CS is nearly always enough to hook up your luxes on time. Also, any Settlers you build before Collective Rule are going to be rush-bought anyway, and so you don't lose any flexibility for putting such a long build into your production queue in the first place.

    But definitely other early wonders, G-Lib included, are not worth it in a Liberty opener. Even when I successfully build Temple of Artemis or G-Lib I find myself wishing I'd built Archers or Workers instead. The first Wonders I'll consider building are all Classical era - Oracle, Machu Piccu, Hagia Sophia, and of course Petra, all around T100 standard speed. Some of these are easy to beat the AI to, which is a good thing.
     
  9. Light Cleric

    Light Cleric ElCee/LC/El Cid

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    Personally I wouldn't use the GE on NC if I had done like 3 cities + war, but with some REXing I could see it. In glory's game he had 5 cities on turn 62, so I would imagine the cost of NC was quite high(245 :c5production:?). In that case it's not just the beakers you consider but the amount of time you spend building a high hammer NC instead of something else
     
  10. Light Cleric

    Light Cleric ElCee/LC/El Cid

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    Personally I wouldn't use the GE on NC if I had done like 3 cities + war, but with some REXing I could see it. In glory's game he had 5 cities on turn 62, so I would imagine the cost of NC was quite high(245 :c5production:?). In that case it's not just the beakers you consider but the amount of time you spend building a high hammer NC instead of something else.

    I'm not really sure how many wonders you would be after at the point the Liberty finisher comes: the ancient/classical wonders are gone, and the Hagia Sophia/GMoD could very well be gone as well; plus if I'm Babylon I'm much more concerned about teching than crusading, though I suppose you could sit on the GE for PT/Leaning Tower.
     
  11. Justice1337

    Justice1337 Sofa King

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    But having 5 cities means you also have more hammer output from your empire, and so you can continue to build the Bows you need in other cities. As for buildings, the city where you build the NC will have good hammers, so it can catch up. Thankfully hammers are in a much more abundant supply in Liberty, so if you see the game going its full length you can dip a little bit here and there.

    There is also something to be said for the game state. In glory's game, all the civ's were on their heels and substantially weakened from infighting. On Pangea also, conquest is possible pre T200. So since all signs point to the game being over quickly, the benefits of compounding Academies, the NC and an Observatory into the same city, or the benefits of a Wonder like Machu Piccu, aren't going to be realized. At that point, only short term benefits really matter, and so in a choice between the NC, an Academy and some other Wonder, you might as well do the NC. The benefits of getting more later never come.

    Also, glory had Desert Folklore, so I don't see a need for building HS or Great Mosque there.


    On what Wonders you can get with the GE, I find Machu Piccu, GMD, HS and sometimes Petra are still available on Immortal when it pops. I don't do anything special other than build Monuments and Ampitheatres, and I usually have 5-7 cities at that point, so if it comes substantially later it probably has to do with AI's like Egypt, or some AI with a Desert/Mountain Cap building Petra/MP. It also might be that Monuments aren't getting built. Or that I'm just not as familiar with Diety as I am with Immortal, and they are being built crazy early. But if you do get them, particularly MP and Petra are great ones to early Engineer because you don't always get a good production city that's able to hard build them at a realistic pace.

    On Babylon, I was mainly talking about Babylon opening Liberty going Domination. I think most people go Tradtion > Space Race with them, but I find that they're a great Liberty Domination civ on Immortal as well due to the early techs. With a Domination strat, I usually like production/gold wonders instead, and with Babylon I am taking an Engineer every time, obviously.
     
  12. RealHuhn

    RealHuhn Emperor

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    People underestimate the power of city spam.

    In a theoretical scenario where happiness is unlimited, Liberty would beat Tradition without any problem in basically everything. But only if you have enough space to expand, of course.

    I think we can all agree on the fact that Liberty is limited by happiness. So you have to start to form a strategy around getting as much happiness as soon as possible.

    For example, I encourage every nay-sayer to fire up a game as Egypt, start with scout -> monument, get 1-2 luxury techs, The Wheel for a few war chariots and straight to Philosophy. Not for the NC, but for opening Piety as your 4th or 5th policy and spam shrines and burial tombs before anything else in every city you build.
    Also, capital builds nothing but settlers until you run out of room. Buy workers whenever possible and improve luxuries before anything else.

    Then take tithe (on most maps) to combat building maintenance, Pagodas and +2:c5happy: per temple or +1:c5happy: per shrine.

    Grow your cities like you would do with Tradition and if you run into happiness problems, cap at 3 pop or 5 pop, focussing on prodction.
    Fast Pagoda spam often needs Organized Religion from Piety tree as well but it really is a no-brainer, considering you get more culture, faith and happiness with Pagodas and commerce/order combination is awesome for a wide empire anyway.

    At some point in the game, the hassle is over and you are set for either science, diplo, or domination. Decide for youself. You're the run-away now and can outtech and out-produce immortal AIs without any problems.
     
  13. Resipsa

    Resipsa King

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    Sidebar: when you are going for a science victory using Liberty could you use say Nebby to rush NC and then start spamming settlers?
     
  14. knighterrant81

    knighterrant81 Warlord

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    The problem is, you can city spam just as easily as Tradition that you can as Liberty, and what's more, your cities will be so big as Tradition that you'll match a Liberty build's output with fewer cities anyway. You lose out on culture/happiness a bit if you spam cities as Tradition, but that can be made up for with CS's and buildings pretty easily.
     
  15. The Pilgrim

    The Pilgrim Deity

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    You cannot, but that doesn't matter because you can pump same beakers and hammers with bigger cities under Tradition.
     
  16. Meanness

    Meanness Chieftain

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    I will choose Liberty when I meet another civ within the first 5 turns, basically for the quick settler. I want to get 2-3 good cities up ASAP to start cranking out CBs. If I go Tradition, I can miss out on the quality city locations, especially if my neighbor doesn't have a lot of gold to trade for luxes, and I have to hard-build settlers.

    How do the Tradition-always stalwarts deal with this situation? If I'm on an island with Alexander, and he's not in a trading mood, I need the Liberty jump-start more than I need endgame science.
     
  17. Unresolved

    Unresolved King

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    If I'm on a small island, I will take Liberty. That's one of the few situations where I believe that Liberty>Tradition. But if you have other trading partners, then going Tradition and buying a settler isn't difficult. Settle the second city right in your neighbor's face and then attack with 6 CB's at turn 60ish.
     
  18. Iberian

    Iberian Prince

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    Liberty is more fun if you are playing a ever expanding builder game. If you like building large empires with full buildings in each city while having an ever present army that is constantly attacking someone but not substantial enough to go and quickly conquer Liberty is great, especially on a continents map. You can even match the other continents runaway AI in late game.

    Since your army isn't the sole focus after you displace your first civ you can spend a lot of time building your empire while slowly conquering the rest of your continent. By the 200 turn mark you are running 10-15 cities with a lot of production, coin, science. Then you get to play the late game wars. Which if you don't mind the hours of unit movement it can be fun playing with the units you never get to see.

    Personally though at Deity trying to kill a runaway AI without just sniping the capital takes too long for me. Your war will likely be 50+ turns. Though I just tempted myself to go Persia with Chichen Itza and Autocrazy. (Autocracy)
     
  19. Justice1337

    Justice1337 Sofa King

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    Well if you find yourself very aggressive, you have to worry about Liberty competing with Honor as well. If I've built 6-8 CB's by turn 40 and I think I have a chance to take over my continent, I will go left side Honor and never look back. Science will catch up when I have half the map, and as the best tree for happiness, filling Honor gets it done.

    Liberty is for the more typical Domination/ICS game where you have to have a stable production base and hit timings.
     
  20. mabalogna

    mabalogna Warlord

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    Stealing techs in G+K also helps level the playing field, and if you're not the one in the lead but you know who is, you can keep pace pretty well during the middle ages/renaissance while building up the infrastructure for the end game.
     

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