Librarys or Temples

[JMK]

Of course it depends Civ, map you are playing and Goal you want to achieve.
I like to have early Culture, so I like an early Temple in my Capital, Culture does help relationship with other AIs.
However my priorities goes to Granary, Courthouse, Market place, Aqueduct, Harbour and a few Barracks.
Now when both Libraries and Temples are available, I will build Library if I need to research by myself (found myself alone on an island). If the game require to build Hospital, then I will definitly build Temple and Cathedral in the size 20 Metro.
In other words, if I do not go for a Cultural Goal, Temple (beside the one I will build in my Capital) is my less priority.

 

[Longasc]

Temples are really not so effective on higher levels.

But then it usually depends on the traits. If you have either the religious or the scientific trait, the choice is obvious: Take immediate advantage of the discount on the respective building.

There is no point in wasting time to build the "slower" building first.

If happiness issues are severe, one might consider adding a quick temple and a marketplace before the library.


I often end up with no temple for some 2000 years... on Demigod/Deity your citizens are an ungrateful bunch, and luxuries and markets PLUS the luxuries slider do much more good than a single temple, and are really necessary, as Tomoyo already explained.

 

[sjd74]

Libraries all the way.
In moving up from Regent to Monarch (slowly) I am cutting my temple addiction.
One of these days I will cut back on my scientific civ addiction too and then I may have to reasses libs.

 

[Trev]

When playing religious all cities get a temple reasonably early, primarily for border expansion, if city is reasonably corrupt, whipping is used to rushbuild it, prevents culture flips later, otherwise I will tend to temples in some early cities (prior to learning literacy) and libraries in all later cities first

 

[morchuflex]

For pacific development style of play (which happens to be mine), temples are important. They expand borders, thus giving more tiles to work. I usually play on archipelago maps with max ocean, making each water tile important. Of course, libs will do the same, but they come up much later in the game.
Furthermore, you really want your wonder building cities to be fully productive (no entertainer!), so a temple will help. Of course, it takes time to build the temple, but you can chop forests to speed up the process and rush-buy the last 20 shields.

Last but not least, remember that libs have a maintenance cost of one gpt. So, they only add to your research if the city is investing at least 4 coins in research, which is unlikely in the early game (low pop, high corruption), except in some core cities.
Example: a 4 citizen non-coastal despotic city will make a typical 5 coins per turn (and that's provided all worked tiles are roaded!). If the city is about five tiles from the capital, one coin will be corrupt, leaving 4. But let's say you need 20% taxes to maintain troops, workers etc. Then the city only invests 3 coins in science. The lib adds 50%, rounded down. That's a +1 theoretical output. But since the lib costs 1 coin per turn to maintain, you're not making any benefit.

Unless I'm scientific, I usually only build libs at the beginning of the second era, just after switching to Republic. Before that, I only build some temples, harbors, granaries, and of course units, plus an occasional barracks and the most crucial wonders (forbidden palace, and, considering I play archipelago, the Lighthouse).

 

[Smartsquid399]

I always build libraries first (I love sciene).But, I only build temples when a city start civil disorder.

I love science too, but at the beginning of the game I build a temple in each city to increase culture and to prolongue unhappiness in the city. After that I build a barracks and then a library. The reason is that when you just settle a city it doesn't give enough commerce to make the Library at all useful. Also, later on in the game it depends on what traits you have. Here's a list of what you should build:

1. Religious=Temple, then Library
2. Scientific=Library, then Temple (if ever at all)
3. Both=First Library, then Temple (or vise-versa, depending on the situation)
4. Neither=Temple, then Library (usually, again depending on the situation)

 

[Civkin]

My usual way to start a game, whether I'm playing a religious CIV or not, is to avoid building any city improvements for as long as possible (except maybe one granary). I don't want to pay the maintenance costs; I'd rather set my science rating to 100% and crank out settlers. Once my initial expansion has slowed, though, I build both libraries and temples... the latter especially if I plan on switching to Republic. One less unhappy citizen means one more body working the fields, means at least two more commerce which, provided my cities aren't corrupted all to hell, offsets the temple's nominal maintenance costs. So I'll definitely stick a temple in my capital city and in cities nearer to it. Cities closer to the border get libraries or temples, whichever is cheaper, for border expansion.

 

[viper275]

Libraries!!!!! I dislike temples a lot, and a scientific civ can build libraries cheaper than temples. I even know a temple rant (not mine.)

 

[Smartsquid399]

I also like temples because they alow for Cathedrals, which can help eventually.

 

[Abaddon]

i dont bother building churches.. i use the wonder you get in conquests to plonk one for free in everyone in my city.. but the time it becomes obsolete, ive gained with borders/claimed enough lux to not worry about them anymore.

 

[punkbass2000]

I don't know, any strat based around a Wonder (especially the most expensive wonder in the AA which is also at an inconvenient place in the tech tree) doesn't sound like much of a strategy to me; too risky.

 

[Renata]

For border expansion, whichever is cheaper for the civ I'm playing, with the possible exception (if scientific) of one or two temples in critical areas before I have literacy. I generally build cities close enough together that border expansion is only necessary around the edges -- the filling-in effect gets most of the interior tiles that aren't within any cities initial radius.

I almost never build temples early for happiness alone; they can wait until expansion is over and the larger cities are big enough to build them in five to ten turns (nonreligious). And depending on how I'm playing and what the situation is, maybe not even then.

Similarly, libraries usually wait quite a while if I'm not scientific, since I generally can't keep up with the AI in pure research past the end of the ancient era even with them. I suppose I might build them if I was isolated; not sure.

All of this is from the perspective of an Emperor player who's still trying to get more confident on Deity.

Renata

 

[Charles 22]

From my perspective temples are irreplaceable. Without them I have no cathedral. Without cathedrals I have no use for the Sistine Chapel. I play this way irrespective of the civ, but in now playing Carthage and getting far enough ahead in techs that eventually every civ goes to war with me, trying to keep republic and keep the people from rioting makes them necessary. If somehow you can get Sistine Chapel and that musical wonder that gives two citizens happiness, you're plumb invincible. And you're going to need it when virtually every civ is at war with you by the time you hit invention.

Of course I always build both libraries and temples for practically every city. Temples work anywhere, whereas libraries are somewhat useless in high corrupt cities.

The 1st thing I build in most cities, depending on the other civ's friendliness, is either walls or temples, but one usually follows the other. My capitol almost always delays building a library because it's usually too busy build the Great Library, and when completed the normal library follows.

C3C in giving the scientist 3 beakers does at least make the question of whether to build a temple more of a challenge, but I don't think about it twice. The 3 beakers are just handy for those times where a city is disconnected from any luxuries and doesn't have adequate defenders yet (should it have enough citizens that some are unhappy).

Something tells me that the earlier you build temples, the earlier you'll be having cultural conversions too. Cultural conversion can be a handy tool when you've been at relative non-stop war with all the civs and you can't dare venture out a settler even with heavy escort.




How do y'all like these apples? In my current game as Carthage I was at war with maybe 4 of the other 9 civs. France was to my west and had been nice the whole game to that point. There was a convenient spot where within 5 turns I would've had a settler there (behind the lines of a couple of my cities). I had made three or four tech exchanges with them, and had even given them a tech hoping to get aid for the eventual battle against all civs. They plop a city down there, probably there last city they could build, and then go to war with me the next turn. I'm not even sure if they wanted tribute or not. Oh well, that city is mine soon enough (one lousy defender) and then I'll have to take the 1st city they orginally had which they just beat me to getting that (that has a wine luxury). Oh, yes, revenge.

 

[Smartsquid399]

From my perspective temples are irreplaceable. Without them I have no cathedral. Without cathedrals I have no use for the Sistine Chapel. I play this way irrespective of the civ, but in now playing Carthage and getting far enough ahead in techs that eventually every civ goes to war with me, trying to keep republic and keep the people from rioting makes them necessary. If somehow you can get Sistine Chapel and that musical wonder that gives two citizens happiness, you're plumb invincible. And you're going to need it when virtually every civ is at war with you by the time you hit invention.

Of course I always build both libraries and temples for practically every city. Temples work anywhere, whereas libraries are somewhat useless in high corrupt cities.

The 1st thing I build in most cities, depending on the other civ's friendliness, is either walls or temples, but one usually follows the other. My capitol almost always delays building a library because it's usually too busy build the Great Library, and when completed the normal library follows.

C3C in giving the scientist 3 beakers does at least make the question of whether to build a temple more of a challenge, but I don't think about it twice. The 3 beakers are just handy for those times where a city is disconnected from any luxuries and doesn't have adequate defenders yet (should it have enough citizens that some are unhappy).

Something tells me that the earlier you build temples, the earlier you'll be having cultural conversions too. Cultural conversion can be a handy tool when you've been at relative non-stop war with all the civs and you can't dare venture out a settler even with heavy escort.




How do y'all like these apples? In my current game as Carthage I was at war with maybe 4 of the other 9 civs. France was to my west and had been nice the whole game to that point. There was a convenient spot where within 5 turns I would've had a settler there (behind the lines of a couple of my cities). I had made three or four tech exchanges with them, and had even given them a tech hoping to get aid for the eventual battle against all civs. They plop a city down there, probably there last city they could build, and then go to war with me the next turn. I'm not even sure if they wanted tribute or not. Oh well, that city is mine soon enough (one lousy defender) and then I'll have to take the 1st city they orginally had which they just beat me to getting that (that has a wine luxury). Oh, yes, revenge.

Nice LONG description. I agree (although I haven't read the end, lol)

 

[QuinEd]

From my perspective temples are irreplaceable. Without them I have no cathedral. Without cathedrals I have no use for the Sistine Chapel. I play this way irrespective of the civ, but ...

I for one do not build cathedrals. Ever. Not even as a religous civ. Maybe it is my inexperience with the game, I don't know. But, they just seem awful expensive to me. With about 4 lux bonues and marketplaces everywhere, I set my lux slider at about 20% and I have no happiness problems. Bump it to 30% when I need a WLTK day. As for the Sistine Chapel, there is a really good war acadamy article on wonder addiction (http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3acad_wonderaddiction.shtml). The advice given in that article has done wonders (pun intended) for my game.

 

[Tomoyo]

I almost never build Cathedrals, either, but in certain situations, I will. For example, in GOTM 37, I was forced to build my first Cathedral in almost two months...

 

[JoeBas]

Wierd. Different strokes for different folks, I guess... I generally put both in just about all my cities, with cathedrals in cities above about size 8... then again, I'm one of those "improvement junkies"... but the nice thing about that is, I don't touch the luxury slider, it stays parked at 0% unless I'm in a protracted war weariness situation in democracy, and by the end of the middle ages between trading etc. I've got the science bar parked at 100%, making money in the process, and killing in the tech race, even without a scientific civ.

 

[morchuflex]

I personnally almost always play on archipelago maps with maxxed water. On such maps, you hardly ever have more than ONE luxury at your disposal (that is, without going to war). Hence, temples, cathedrals, Bach and Sistine are must builds. Of course, you can trade for luxuries, but sooner or later they will declare war on you...

 

[JMK]

I personnally almost always play on archipelago maps with maxxed water. On such maps, you hardly ever have more than ONE luxury at your disposal (that is, without going to war). Hence, temples, cathedrals, Bach and Sistine are must builds...

I sometimes play on archipelago with max water, and find myself on an island where I can found 4 or 5 cities with no luxury.
In this case, sure you can consider Temple and Cathedral, but before considering Bach's as a 'MUST BUILD'; 600 sheilds to bring 2 smiles in 4 or 5 cities, I would rather spend those sheilds to build boats and units.

Of course, you can trade for luxuries, but sooner or later they will declare war on you...

Yes trading is the key, and if your trading partner declare, well this is great as it brings FREE happiness to you.
Hoping your are not afraid to be at war when you play archipelago with max water!

 

[Renata]

Wierd. Different strokes for different folks, I guess... I generally put both in just about all my cities, with cathedrals in cities above about size 8... then again, I'm one of those "improvement junkies"... but the nice thing about that is, I don't touch the luxury slider, it stays parked at 0% unless I'm in a protracted war weariness situation in democracy, and by the end of the middle ages between trading etc. I've got the science bar parked at 100%, making money in the process, and killing in the tech race, even without a scientific civ.

But four luxes and a marketplace (which you'll want anyway for the extra cashflow) give you six happy faces -- enough to keep a size 12 city from rioting even on the highest levels -- and that's without temple or cathedral or even the slightest nudge of the lux slider. It's often faster to go capture luxes five and six (total 12 happy citizens) than to build temples and cathedrals everywhere, and it has a greater effect.

As I said before, it does depend a bit on the situation, but in an average game I only have temples early on in border-expansion areas and wherever one extra content citizen could really make a difference. Cathedrals almost never get built until after hospitals, if the game even goes that long.

Renata