Librarys or Temples

[Charles 22]

I for one do not build cathedrals. Ever. Not even as a religous civ. Maybe it is my inexperience with the game, I don't know. But, they just seem awful expensive to me. With about 4 lux bonues and marketplaces everywhere, I set my lux slider at about 20% and I have no happiness problems. Bump it to 30% when I need a WLTK day. As for the Sistine Chapel, there is a really good war acadamy article on wonder addiction (http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3acad_wonderaddiction.shtml). The advice given in that article has done wonders (pun intended) for my game.

Yeah that's probably because I get between 1-3 luxuries at most. I haven't researched it thoroughly but since temples upkeep is one gold per turn and cheers one citizen, and cathedrals cost 3 gold but cheers 3 people, then I find the cathedral of equal value (on a cheer per upkeep basis [just as efficient IOW]). When you're trying to skate with Republic when practically every civ, or at least half of them are at war with you at the same time, you need those happiness bonuses vitally to stay in that government.

Another bad thing about the general way I play is that when I find a deposit of a luxury, say 4 of them in a bunch, it often does me no good anyway because being at war before I'm connected up to any other civs pretty much removes their usefulness for trade.

 

[satchel]

This is a very interesting discussion.

I am generally a peaceful builder player. I will typically engage in 2-3 short wars per game, to clear out my continent or a significant portion of it and make sure I have access to multiple luxuries and key resources.

I always build temples. I don't always build them first - that will depend upon their cost relative to libraries - but I always build them. I like to have strong culture in order to manage flipping. A temple and library are always my first builds in a newly captured city for that reason, often rushed when I can afford to.

All of that said, I am a Monarch level player thinking of making the jump to Emperor, and reading in this thread and elesewhere a variety of experienced players stating that temples are worthless does have me thinking. Also to challenge myself on Monarch (rather than just moving up with the same style of play) I have been experimenting with different approaches, such as waging ancient war. I can see where having a stack of archers could be preferable to having a temple. Ultimately, though, I cannot imagine a time when I would not stabilize into a representative government and spend 50-100 turns ramping up infrastructure, which would just have to include cultural improvements such as temple->cathedral.

The value of the marketplace/luxury combination cannot be overstated. If you are claiming territory through expansion or war the additional luxuries may indeed render temples unnecessary in the early going.

 

[JoeBas]

But four luxes and a marketplace (which you'll want anyway for the extra cashflow) give you six happy faces -- enough to keep a size 12 city from rioting even on the highest levels -- and that's without temple or cathedral or even the slightest nudge of the lux slider. It's often faster to go capture luxes five and six (total 12 happy citizens) than to build temples and cathedrals everywhere, and it has a greater effect.

As I said before, it does depend a bit on the situation, but in an average game I only have temples early on in border-expansion areas and wherever one extra content citizen could really make a difference. Cathedrals almost never get built until after hospitals, if the game even goes that long.

Renata

I think it's just a difference in the style of play... I'm a Monarch/Emperor builder/research player who often has his games end in either diplomacy or space race, and I usually build marketplaces in most cities in addition to the temples and libraries (and the all-important courthouses). I can think of a grand total of 3 games I've won (out of hundreds that I've played) by domination, not counting the AI butt I'm kicking in my current game as the Incas which will probably end in Domination. But since I build as I go, temples and libraries if nothing else keep my cities operating at full speed to start... it's not like it's an en-masse thing to build them (I never build wonders like ToA, though I do capture them from time to time. ). And if/when I DO get to the point where I have 6 luxes under my own belt, I can either decide to sell the improvements at that point (of course, by that point money is usually not an issue -- see my first post about my usual economic situation), or just leave them in place for permanent WLTKD's in most of my cities, which just upps their production and sciences even more. By the time I reach the modern age, I usually have 15-20 cities which are producing shields enough to build tanks in 1 turn, if I find the need or desire to. Every once in a while (like my current game) I'm presented with a set-up that a warmongering strategy just comes naturally, and in those cases I back off more on the temple/library deal, usually just build one or the other eventually (usually after barracks) for the culture/territory expansion after capture... maybe if I ever decide to move up to Demi-God or Deity, I'll have to re-think my wasteful habits LOL... but I prefer a game that's a little bit of a challenge but it still fun to play to one which is insanely difficult and winds up not being any fun.

 

[morchuflex]

Another difficulty with luxuries is the following:

in the late game, many civs declare war on you, and even after you make peace, you can't ever have access to their luxuries any more because they trade them permanently with other AI civs, leaving nothing available to you. And even if they're willing to trade, they make so ridiculous bargaining propositions ("one lux vs one lux AND two top techs" is typical at this stage) that you can't afford them.

I did some checking (thanks to embassies), and invariably, almost all the AI civs end up having all 8 luxuries (through mutual trade) while I only have whatever I get on my starting island or continent.

While Arathorn would probably contend this is not exactly a cheat, I think it illustrates the AI civs' tendancy to play against you rather than for themselves (which isn't exactly the same in a non-zero-sum game).

 

[Smartsquid399]

I for some reason never get more than 2-3 luxuries and i depend on the Cathedrals. Maybe the AIs hate me or something but they get all the luxuries (actually its usually the map that doesnt come with any, ) Usually with my strategy I can pay the maintenece cost.

 

[Smartsquid399]

Yeah that's probably because I get between 1-3 luxuries at most. I haven't researched it thoroughly but since temples upkeep is one gold per turn and cheers one citizen, and cathedrals cost 3 gold but cheers 3 people, then I find the cathedral of equal value (on a cheer per upkeep basis [just as efficient IOW]). When you're trying to skate with Republic when practically every civ, or at least half of them are at war with you at the same time, you need those happiness bonuses vitally to stay in that government.

Another bad thing about the general way I play is that when I find a deposit of a luxury, say 4 of them in a bunch, it often does me no good anyway because being at war before I'm connected up to any other civs pretty much removes their usefulness for trade.

Pretty much the same story here. I never have more than 3 luxuries per game (never had 4, EVER). That's why I need a temple.

 

[Trev]

I always build temples and cathedrals because I like to be the tech learner with 100% science whenever possible, which is easy enough to achieve at demigod level on archipalago maps, but for any other style of play I would tend to agree with those who say they are unnecessary, as the most effective way to keep your population happy is the luxury slider and luxury resources, not building happiness buildings. So a game played with high science rates, build happiness buildings, otherwise do not!

 

[I. Larkin]

Temple is useles, as it cost 1 gpt to support and save 1gpt for lux.
However religious civ may use it for fast culture domination. In sense of culture Library also preferable. Shortly, I build Librbray first and Temples occasionally.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

Note, that is coming from a warmongerer player. I have never yet thought about 100k games. (for UN or space i would treath culture the same as i do now)

If you are going to do research yourself (recommended at emperor and below) then libraries. In this case never build any temples.

If you are not going to research (recommended deity and above) temples when cultural expansion is needed.

If your game is easy enough and there are no ocean obstructions so that you will win by knights or earlier, then temples in the border cities. (in the best cities a few libs could be usefull here to reach chivalry, but not border cities)

 

[Ringo Kid]

I make it a point to build two or three cultural buildings in every city. I think in the long run haveing lots of cities and lots of culture helps with the other aspects of the game. I agree that sometimes you dont "need" them, but its hard to quantify the overall long term benefits. Fewer culture flips, easier diplomatic relations with the AI, less likely to have war declared against you, more likely to gain extra cities that flip to you,borders expanding further and sooner and so forth. I think thats one of the key things, to get the right balance between cultural, economic, and military strength. They all work together, support each other, and for me at least, make a more enjoyable game. I am definitely a builder type, guilty of building way more cities than the "optimum number". Like potato chips and sex, I always want some more.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

That balance is actually really not the way.
Playing like that simply wont win deity+ and on lower difficulty levels, playing with reason, knowledge and calculations will alow you to win at very early dates.

Take a look at those gotm 12k+ jason scores by conquest or domination. I can assure you you will find very little culture in any of those games.

If you want to reach good results in civ. Play with a target and dedication. Choose your victory condition and aim everything in your game towards that victory.

 

[Trev]

quote by wackenopenair

If you are going to do research yourself (recommended at emperor and below) then libraries. In this case never build any temples.

This is wrong, if you do your own research, this research should be done whereever possible at 100% science so that you can be sure of beating the AI's to the tech. Therefore happiness buildings (temples, cathredrals, colloseums) are essential to this strategy so that the luxury rate can remain at 0%. The money for this strategy comes from selling the techs you have learnt to the AI's for cash, gold per turn, luxury resources and other resources. The cash and gpt from the AI funds your infrastructure and any rushbuying you wish to do.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

quote by wackenopenair

This is wrong, if you do your own research, this research should be done whereever possible at 100% science so that you can be sure of beating the AI's to the tech. Therefore happiness buildings (temples, cathredrals, colloseums) are essential to this strategy so that the luxury rate can remain at 0%. The money for this strategy comes from selling the techs you have learnt to the AI's for cash, gold per turn, luxury resources and other resources. The cash and gpt from the AI funds your infrastructure and any rushbuying you wish to do.

Hmm, yes taht depends on play style. I play way too agressive to have a game long enough for the happiness buildings to be worth and to have enough friends in the world to get gpt from.
If you want to win early that is the way to play.
If you want to see everything in the game and also see the late era's, you are right.

 

[Renata]

My point still stands, though, that with at least four luxuries and marketplaces in your key (read: large) cities, you don't need temple or cathedral at all until after hospitals. And if you regularly can't *get* at least four luxes via expansion, conquest or trade by the early middle ages in the great majority of your games, you're doing something wrong.* It doesn't matter whether you're a builder or warmonger, leaving out unnecessary shield expenditures can only make you a stronger player.

Renata

*I'm assuming standard map conditions here. Archipelagos delay everything: slower than average expansion, slower conquest, later contacts for trading. And on every level up through Emperor, it can take an agonizingly long time for the AIs to build harbors. At regent and below, it can get ridiculous. "No harbor in the industrial age? Are you nuts, Catherine?" *pulls hair out* And of course larger maps slow things down as well.

 

[El Duderino]

I almost never bother with temples, waiting instead for libraries. During the game stage before libraries become available, I am always building settlers, workers, or military units. Once Libraries roll around, I usually have a good base of cities, and I then concentrate on filling in my borders.

 

[SJ Frank]

@Renata

Ah, I see what you mean in the other thread... 4 lux + a marketplace isn't enough to make a city happy, in fact:

4 lux + marketplace + temple + cathedral is just barely enough to keep a size 12 city happy. Now, can I turn your argument on its head as support for cathedrals

As for myself, because I usually do not self research in my games, I rarely build libraries. Therefore I usually build temples for border expansion purposes. If I could afford to, then I would love to not build temples and cathedrals, but I would never let happiness get in the way of growth.

As a builder style player, what should I build in the middle ages after the marketplace. Certainly not military, because any units not used is just going to sit there collecting 2gpt pension. Libraries? Not if I'm running max tax and brokering. Banks aren't available yet, because the blood thirsty AI's are researching metellurgy before Education. So there is nothing better to do than building the cathedral and growing my core cities to size 12 ASAP. That's usually what ends up happening in my game.

 

[Renata]

You're right, SJFrank. I think something in my brain went *ping* when I wrote that. I was hoping no one would notice. To clarify (correct, actually), each happy face from a lux makes one content citizen happy; once you're out of content citizens, it takes two (one to make the unhappy citizen content, then a second to make the same citizen happy).

I do normally have more than four luxes by the time my cities get that big, though. With five, your core cities can get by at size 12 with a 10% lux tax (emperor & up) -- no temple, no cathedral, no MPs. Outlying towns that are too corrupt to get the full effect of the lux tax would probably get a specialist at size 11 & 12 in that situation. I often wind up with five or six luxes once trade routes are established, and almost always as a Republic, so I play like this a lot.

*shrug* The take-home message still stands, though -- you can get along just fine without happiness improvements for a lot longer than most players believe, as long as you're fast enough with expansion and trading to secure a reasonable supply of luxes. (And half of being fast enough is not building unneeded improvements! )

Renata