Life After Death: SE After Missing the Pyramids

[Nkot]

Is it even worthwhile to try to run an early game SE without the Pyramids (ie. Representation)? Or is it best to just try a CE? Also, how likely is it to miss the Pyramids if you beeline to it w/o stone and w/o industrious on Emperor, Immortal, and Diety?

I mean it seems like if you can't get representation, it's not that good because basically you are getting 1.5 beakers/gold a tile (it takes 2 farms to support one specialist), whereas a cottage is 1 commerce a tile. After 10 turns, a hamlet produces 2 commerce, with only more room to grow and outpace the SE.

A SE still has GP's, but can they really compensate for a non-representative SE's weaknesses?

 

[gallego]

Also, how likely is it to miss the Pyramids if you beeline to it w/o stone and w/o industrious on Emperor, Immortal, and Diety?

I would say pretty close to impossible unless you are lucky.

 

[MyOtherName]

A SE still has GP's, but can they really compensate for a non-representative SE's weaknesses?

Even without their production, specialists are worthwhile in the early game.

In the early game, it's very easy to have too much food from specials, and run into your happiness cap, so you aren't replacing cottages with farms to support the specialist.

But even if you had to support it the hard way... compare working 3 cottages versus 2 farms and a scientist.

Delaying the working of 4 towns for 34 turns is 510 beakers+gold (3*4*34*1.25) -- I think that's the absolute most you could possibly value the cottages in the early game.

But working a scientist for 34 turns gets you one great scientist, which can be used to bulb a tech (worth 600 to 1200 beakers), and the other uses can be more powerful than that over the long term! So the scientist is worth it to get your first great person, even if we ignore the 127.5 (3*34*1.25) beakers he gives you.

 

[Lanstro]

It's far too inefficient to go for pyramids without stone/industrious on emperor+. That's basically gambling at least 1/3 of your military/land away to maybe get a wonder.

However, you do often have to use SE or a variant at emperor+ on happiness or commerce-starved starts. Cottages are all well and good, but you often need the instant shot-in-the-arm that specialists provide.

 

[futurehermit]

Of course it's possible and viable. You are missing the point of a SE. You can either settle the gp for the long haul like Obsolete does (at high levels, although he generally does get the pyramids) or you can lightbulb and trade like Acidsatyr does (at high levels).

A SE will get more gp than a CE with one gpfarm and each GS bulbs for lots of beakers that can be traded for even more beakers. That's a lot of beakers.

A SE is also about bulbing quickly to advanced military tech and then being able to transition your entire empire into hard-and-whipped hammers to do some hardcore burst production. My fastest win ever was a 1600 AD domination win (normal speed, monarch, Kublai) where I went pure farm-economy without any cottages or pyramids. First a war with axes then finished warring with cavalry. This was in warlords before cav were pushed back to rifling.

The real strength of the SE is the ability to switch back and forth between complete research and complete production. Spiritual is thus a very nice SE trait allowing you to make the accompanying civic changes.

 

[lukep]

Pyramids, imho should not be build, but captured.

I usually play SE (monarch/emperor) on warlord but the mids are too costly if you are not industrious.

Thus, i would not bother with it (GW yes). But the point of SE is not only the specialists, but also increased growth, which at low hapiness caps translate in whip hammers.

I ran some simulation, and on the first 100 turns, a SE driven city will normally have at least 40% production more than the CE. While the GPP more than compensate the cottage commerce, more hammers means you can gear for war a lot more efficiently.

Capturing an ennnemy capitol is a great boon to your economy.

 

[mystyfly]

Pyramids, imho should not be build, but captured.

Please, how do you do that? Restart a game whenever you find out that the builder of the mids is on another continent/too far away?

Imo thats not a strategy, that rather is cheating...

 

[DigitalBoy]

I tried a SE game recenty without having the Pyramids. Not my strongest economy ever (got off to a weak economic start since my first two cities were production specialists), but it was a rewarding game, especially after I actually did get Representation from Constitution.

Like MyOtherName says, when you have a lot of food resources, it makes a lot of sense to run specialists since you have food that you don't know what to do with. When you're trying to exploit a heavy food surplus, a scientist is like a 3 beaker tile and not a 1.5 beaker tile.

Also, a scientist with a library and academy (from all the great scientists you're bound to get) is 5.25 beakers. Scientists go really well with academies because 1) you're getting more of them and 2) you don't need a high science slider to make full use of them, like you do with cottages. Or instead of academies, you can also lightbulb.

 

[xanadux]

Scientist specialists always earn their Great Person Points. At Immortal and Deity, this is their true power ... they can lightbulb techs to gain tech parity. At monarch level and below, and usually at Emperor level, settling the Great Scientists is better. It is actually very easy to get the 'mids at Emperor ... just chop a few forests. Above Emperor, not so easy. I'm not saying it is ideal to get the 'mids at Emperor, just that it is pretty easy if you want them.

 

[Gliese 581]

There's always the oracle slingshot for metal casting letting you build a forge to run an engineer specialist and get a great engineer that finishes the pyramids for you. Sisiutil has written an article on how to do it. The Oracle is pretty cheap anyhow and you can trade MC for other stuff later. The biggest drawback is having to research meditation and priesthood instead of beelining something more useful but if it pays of it's nice.

 

[xanadux]

Ultimately, at Immortal and Deity levels, you run at least a partial SE because there is no equal early game to the beakers earned by a well timed lightbulb. Pyramids are mostly irrelevant in this case. Emperor and below, a good player can probably get more leverage out of settling GP. If you are fortunate enough at emperor to not need a quick REX, grabbing the Pyramids is both easy and beneficial for a non-financial civ. Below Emperor, it is super-easy to get the 'mids. Above Emperor it is hard. It is usually fairly easy on Emperor, given enough forests.

 

[lukep]

Please, how do you do that? Restart a game whenever you find out that the builder of the mids is on another continent/too far away?

Imo thats not a strategy, that rather is cheating...

mids are a nice bonus, but not mandatory. In fact i often stay in monarchy for the garnison happiness.

I value much more GW, GL and if coastal capitol, Colossus and lighthouse

 

[PimpyMicPimp]

Didn't Sis in an ALC game run a SE without the Pyramids? It seems possible, harder definitly, but possible.

 

[_davin_B]

Pyramids, imho should not be build, but captured.

I usually play SE (monarch/emperor) on warlord but the mids are too costly if you are not industrious.

Thus, i would not bother with it (GW yes). But the point of SE is not only the specialists, but also increased growth, which at low hapiness caps translate in whip hammers.

I ran some simulation, and on the first 100 turns, a SE driven city will normally have at least 40% production more than the CE. While the GPP more than compensate the cottage commerce, more hammers means you can gear for war a lot more efficiently.

Capturing an ennnemy capitol is a great boon to your economy.

Go for 'the gold' especially since they squandered all their resources building the thing you're going to take from them! That'll teach 'em!

 

[KMadCandy]

mids are a nice bonus, but not mandatory. In fact i often stay in monarchy for the garnison happiness.

at least twice i've had the mids but stayed in HR for quite a while when i wanted to use Rep. not for the military police, but for the +wise civics i'd earned and needed to keep with my scary neighbors.

 

[Bureaucracy]

It's far too inefficient to go for pyramids without stone/industrious on emperor+. That's basically gambling at least 1/3 of your military/land away to maybe get a wonder.

However, you do often have to use SE or a variant at emperor+ on happiness or commerce-starved starts. Cottages are all well and good, but you often need the instant shot-in-the-arm that specialists provide.

The last time Obsolete played an Emperor map, he used Ghandi (non industrious) and also couldn't find any stone. Regardless, he went after the pyramids anyhow, and seems to have made it look quite efficient.

 

[CivCorpse]

The last time Obsolete played an Emperor map, he used Ghandi (non industrious) and also couldn't find any stone. Regardless, he went after the pyramids anyhow, and seems to have made it look quite efficient.

He was playing Warlords and used the GE from the GW to rush the Mids. In BtS, you get GSpy points not GE points. But in BtS the Ai does not prioritize building the pyramids like before. So chopping and whipping are viable options.

 

[vicawoo]

Of course it's possible and viable. You are missing the point of a SE. You can either settle the gp for the long haul like Obsolete does (at high levels, although he generally does get the pyramids) or you can lightbulb and trade like Acidsatyr does (at high levels).

A SE will get more gp than a CE with one gpfarm and each GS bulbs for lots of beakers that can be traded for even more beakers. That's a lot of beakers.

A SE is also about bulbing quickly to advanced military tech and then being able to transition your entire empire into hard-and-whipped hammers to do some hardcore burst production. My fastest win ever was a 1600 AD domination win (normal speed, monarch, Kublai) where I went pure farm-economy without any cottages or pyramids. First a war with axes then finished warring with cavalry. This was in warlords before cav were pushed back to rifling.

The real strength of the SE is the ability to switch back and forth between complete research and complete production. Spiritual is thus a very nice SE trait allowing you to make the accompanying civic changes.

Correction, Obsolete's wonder strategy requires pyramids. He has no cottages, does not expand much, so he's relying on settled GP for beakers.

I checked the ghandi game, his capital had no production (only 2 forests and some incidental hammers) after he chopped his first few wonders. He had to use his GE to get pyramids. So in BTS, where you get great spy points, that would not work.

I don't think SE's get many more GP's than a GP farm with NE and great library. You can live without pyramids if you have a lot of food, and lots of cities and a cottaged capital help a lot.

 

[futurehermit]

No, it's not a correction. Obsolete has demonstrated his strategy can work without the pyramids. The focus of his strategy is production primarily and beakers only secondarily. If he wanted beakers primarily he would focus on generating scientists, but he focuses on generating GEs and GPs. Of course pyramids are handy, and he can usually get it (because he sacrifices expansion), but he has demonstrated that his approach can work in a variety of ways and I believe he could and also has demonstrate that his approach can work without the pyramids.

I don't think SE's get many more GP's than a GP farm with NE and great library.

This statement shows some inexperience with a SE. A SE will get MORE gp EARLIER than a CE with a gpfarm. Perhaps not more overall in the long run (though I still think that will be the case, but the gap will lessen), but in the short term, which is vastly more important, a SE will get more faster because non-gpfarm cities WILL contribute gp. So a SE will have 3-4 when a CE w/gpfarm has 1-2. Those 1-2 more gp can be 1-2 more lightbulbs earlier that you can leverage to your advantage. For the liberalism race this is a big deal with SE hitting it faster getting the free tech faster that they can leverage faster. Are you seeing what I'm getting at here? Getting things x turns faster in Civ is a big deal so with a SE getting more gp faster is a big deal.

 

[UncleJJ]

It is true that The Pyramids are central to obsolete's wonder based economy where he relies on the beakers from Representation and settled specialists to do a lot of his research. But he is not running a SE, since he he has few if any food specialists. I think the original poster is asking what to do with a conventional SE if he fails to win the race for The Pyramids.

As many have already said, I consider The Pyramids to be unecessary for a SE. In fact on many maps it is easy to argue that HR is superior to Representation anyway, providing more happiness and giving much better flexibilty in controlling it. It depends on your gameplan but SE is particularly suited to warfare. There are too few specialists to make early use of Representation worthwhile in the same way it is in the middle and late game. That means it is feasible to research Constitution normally (using some lightbulbs towards Liberalism and taking Nationalism) in a SE and out research a slower CE based economy. That makes The Pyramids an expensive (500 hammer) distraction from REXing or an Axe rush.

But working a scientist for 34 turns gets you one great scientist, which can be used to bulb a tech (worth 600 to 1200 beakers), and the other uses can be more powerful than that over the long term! So the scientist is worth it to get your first great person, even if we ignore the 127.5 (3*34*1.25) beakers he gives you.

I would say that you should only lightbulb techs that use all of the 1500 + 3*pop beakers a GS is worth. Anything less is wasteful. That normally means Education and higher techs, depending of difficulty level. An exception I make to this rule is lightbulbing Philosophy (circa 1290 beakers on Monarch IIRC), if I want to found a religion (needed for Pacificism) and enabling an early switch to Caste System and Philosophy together. That early switch recovers the beakers "lost" and helps with the race to Liberalism. I think a GS at this stage of the game should be considered as being worth 1500 beakers as a minimum and is typically 1600. So the first 4 GS are worth something like 6000 beakers in total and are usually enough to win the Liberalism race (use say 1 GS for an Academy, 1 settled and 2 lightbulbed)

In the same way we look at the growth and development of cottages we can study the build up of GPPs in a city's GPP pool. The first 4 GPs only costs a total of 1000 GPPs. If generated entirely by running 2 scientists in a library, usually in several cities in parallel, this takes a total of 334 scientist-turns each giving 3 GPPs. This is even easier for a Philosophical leader who gets 6 GPPs per scientist per turn. Running Pacificism gives another 3 GPPs, and is especially useful for a Spiritual leader.

Generating the 1000 GPPs costs 668 food (for non Philosophical and without Pacifism) and they are worth a total of 6000 beakers (see above) so we can argue that each GPP is worth 6 beakers and each food is therefore giving 9 beakers That means a humble grassland farm, providing 1 food per turn, is giving 9 beakers (from GPPs) plus half of the 3.75 beakers a scientist gives, totalling 10.87 beakers per turn per farm. That is massively more than any cottage could give at that time and accounts for why a SE is so powerful in the early game. But note; if Representation was added it would only give another 1.87 beakers to this total and this is why it is a distraction at this point in the game. Building The Pyramids delays REXing (probably by several 10s of turns) and that delays running the scientists needed to produce the 1000 GPPs. Obviously running a lot of scientists each giving 3.75 beakers and 3 GPPs is better than running a few (or none) giving 7.5 beakers and 3 GPPs when each GPP is worth 6 beakers.

Getting to Constitution is a magical thing for a SE. It not only allows Representation to be run but also allows Jails to be whipped into key cities. Now the SE economy can move into a mixture of research and espionage which supports a domination push perfectly. Adopting Nationalism is a perfect fit and allows 25% more EPs, +2 happiness and Drafting (once you have researched something worth drafting ).

Is it even worthwhile to try to run an early game SE without the Pyramids (ie. Representation)? Or is it best to just try a CE? Also, how likely is it to miss the Pyramids if you beeline to it w/o stone and w/o industrious on Emperor, Immortal, and Diety?

I mean it seems like if you can't get representation, it's not that good because basically you are getting 1.5 beakers/gold a tile (it takes 2 farms to support one specialist), whereas a cottage is 1 commerce a tile. After 10 turns, a hamlet produces 2 commerce, with only more room to grow and outpace the SE.

A SE still has GP's, but can they really compensate for a non-representative SE's weaknesses?

So what do you do if you failed to get The Pyramids? Give a sigh of relief and get on with playing an aggressive SE. HR will be perfectly good enough for an early war or two while you research towards Constitution.

I hope I have shown with the maths above that the main research output at this time in the game can come from GPPs. GPPs provide beakers far more efficiently than cottages or Representation can. In fact Representation is often a distraction and weaker than HR in the early game. With this method as others have said cottaging the capital can be especially worthwhile and sets up a perfect Science City for building Oxford that can continue to research strongly afterwards when it is harder to make GPs due to their increasing costs. Alternatively, you can switch the emphasis of your SE from pure research to a mix of research and espionage.

EDIT: It seems Futurehermit replied while I typed out this long post I hope I have provided some mathematical back up for the points he makes.