Limited number of missionaries and executives. WHY?

[shakabrade]

Why is there a number limit to missionaries and executives?

Is that because of auto-spread option? Is it hard for game to calculate routes with more than 5 missionaries (I believe 5 missionaries and execs are alowed on Huge)?

If that's the reason, I'd rather not have missionary automation available.
And what the hell would national unit be in real life?

If not, what's the reason? Please help!

Unverified ideas in lack of real facts are also welcome (aka trolling).

 

[vincentz]

for the gameplay balance. Unlimited miss and exec would mean unlimited (and very fast) spread.
Its not difficult to modifiy it yourself if you disagree with the developers decision

Its in ...Civilization 4\Beyond the Sword\Assets\XML\Units\CIV4UnitClassInfos.xml

change the <iMaxPlayerInstances>5</iMaxPlayerInstances> to -1 for the execs and
<iMaxPlayerInstances>3</iMaxPlayerInstances> to -1 for missionaries

BUT : !!! Remember never to modify original game files. Either make a small mod or put it in the custom assets in the documents folder

 

[Choggy]

If the game allowed unlimited missionaries you could become really powerful early on if you got an early religion.

As a thought experiement (aka Trolling ) - get a Great Prophet from an early Wonder (oracle, etc), build your shrine and then go on a missionary whipping frenzy. In effect you've converting 2 population (or 40 hammers, or 2 forests) into 1 gold coin per turn for your holy city notwithstanding the other benefits that you get from spreading your religion.

That to me is a game-changer, a city's maintenance cost could be offset by just building a few missionaries. Your Globe city would be a licence to print money, it's be easy to set it up so that you whipped a missionary each turn.

 

[shakabrade]

@Choggy
Dunno, wasting early hammers on spamming missionaries is not powerful. It is more powerful to whip military or infrastructure, or let people live as specialists or in riverside hamlets. One good city captured can be better than super shrine. So I don't see missionary spamming as something really powerful, I find it as misplay usually. Especially on higher levels. Opportunity costs are too high. So I don't see a reason for limiting their number.

@Vincentz
I don't have any feelings regarding this issue and wanting me to change game, it is just puzzling me. However, thanks for your effort.

You mention gameplay balance. How does it balance gameplay? If you want to build missionaries while your neighbour is settling all the land available, or is building SoD with your name on it, be my guest, and I think you should be game's guest.

 

[Um the Muse]

I doubt that unlimited missionaries would change anything except make religion a little less annoying to spread (to your own cities). Exec spread, now that's a whole 'nother beast.

 

[shakabrade]

Yeah, execs can kill your neigbours' economy.

 

[Choggy]

@Choggy
Dunno, wasting early hammers on spamming missionaries is not powerful. It is more powerful to whip military or infrastructure, or let people live as specialists or in riverside hamlets. One good city captured can be better than super shrine. So I don't see missionary spamming as something really powerful, I find it as misplay usually. Especially on higher levels. Opportunity costs are too high. So I don't see a reason for limiting their number.

Fair enough. I still think that this would weaken Currency as a must have tech but I do see your point.

I never said it was a bad idea...actually I agree with you. I don't understand why missionaries are restricted to 3 units - apart from Theology for building an SoD or OR for a Culture victory I think the religious civics aren't worth the hassle, I prefer to sit on fence with No State Religion, particularly early game. Infinite missionaries would make religion much more appealing to me.

In another thread recently somebody (Sian) suggested that Ramesses makes a religious civ worthwhile, Having only recently upgraded from Vanilla to BtS I've never played him, how would this rule change affect him?

 

[Ghpstage]

I doubt that unlimited missionaries would change anything except make religion a little less annoying to spread (to your own cities).

Being able to spam missionaries would allow players to easily convert AIs to different religions, allowing a lot more control over diplomacy. Though this would only really be true in the midgame when you can spare the hammers, early on missionary spam would still be pointless.

- apart from Theology for building an SoD or OR for a Culture victory I think the religious civics aren't worth the hassle, I prefer to sit on fence with No State Religion, particularly early game. Infinite missionaries would make religion much more appealing to me.

Organised Religion is very nice for the hammer bonus for building, and to an extent to allow missionaries to be built without Monasteries, while Pacifism is a very powerful economic civic. Also consider that the wonders that impact religious buildings (Sankore, S.Minarat and Sistine) only work on your state religion buildings.

Adopting the local majority religion makes sense for the diplo effects alone, though sometimes the religious layout does discourage adopting any.

 

[shakabrade]

Originally Posted by Choggy
- apart from Theology for building an SoD or OR for a Culture victory I think the religious civics aren't worth the hassle

Pacifism and not Organized religion is what you need for Cultural victory. You can use OR effectively for cultural victory only if you are Spiritual and combine it with Slavery to whip culture infra, and switch back to Pacifism quickly. That's why Gandhi is best leader for cultural VC. You'll still be running Pacifism 70% of the time.

 

[Ghpstage]

Pacifism and not Organized religion is what you need for Cultural victory. You can use OR effectively for cultural victory only if you are Spiritual and combine it with Slavery to whip culture infra, and switch back to Pacifism quickly. That's why Gandhi is best leader for cultural VC. You'll still be running Pacifism 70% of the time.

A solid argument for using OR in culture attempts comes from not needing monasteries to build missionaries of any religion, saving hammers and time while spreading your religions as well as saving hammers on infra building. You can swap to Pacifism later.

 

[Um the Muse]

Being able to spam missionaries would allow players to easily convert AIs to different religions, allowing a lot more control over diplomacy. Though this would only really be true in the midgame when you can spare the hammers, early on missionary spam would still be pointless.

I wonder what the tipping point would be. Wouldn't it be easier/ less resource- and time-intensive to convert them through either espionage or diplomacy? I suppose that has to be balanced against the likelihood that the target civ will just convert back.

Even if there is such a point, though, wouldn't you consider it a risky strategy to adopt since a large fraction of your production capacity will become tied up in ingratiating yourself with one or two neighbors?

 

[Choggy]

Pacifism and not Organized religion is what you need for Cultural victory. You can use OR effectively for cultural victory only if you are Spiritual and combine it with Slavery to whip culture infra, and switch back to Pacifism quickly. That's why Gandhi is best leader for cultural VC. You'll still be running Pacifism 70% of the time.

Without wishing to derail a thread about what I think is a really interesting idea, I don't really run Pacifism for a Culture Victory until fairly late on when I'm gunning for GA's. Before then it's all been about OR for temples, cathedrals and wonder spamming mixed with with some Theology to build Longbows for border defenses. Probably not optimal play, but I like a sense of security. Probably why I've never got a Culture victory before 1850AD :facepalm:

Anyway..another thing springs to mind. UN diplo victories. You could just spam missionaries while your building the UN to all the civs apart from the second biggest civ and bribe them to convert. Guaranteed win!?

 

[Archon_Wing]

IMO, the max numbers should increase with the era you're in. So 3 for ancient era, but 5 for medieval etc...For executives, it could be 3 industrial, 4 modern...

 

[Choggy]

IMO, the max numbers should increase with the era you're in. So 3 for ancient era, but 5 for medieval etc...For executives, it could be 3 industrial, 4 modern...

How about a similar sliding scale based on the number of cities in your empire with that religion/corporation in the same way that combat promos work?

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Every religion would be everywhere thanks to the AI.

Citing shrine income as why this is too strong is a poor joke.

APalace or culture are arguably stronger cases, but still not strong.

Breaking the AI is an issue, both because the AI would further overbuild them and you could manipulate the AI more readily.

Investment into one's own shrine is almost definitely something that firaxis thought would be stronger than it actually is.

 

[Ghpstage]

I wonder what the tipping point would be. Wouldn't it be easier/ less resource- and time-intensive to convert them through either espionage or diplomacy? I suppose that has to be balanced against the likelihood that the target civ will just convert back.

Even if there is such a point, though, wouldn't you consider it a risky strategy to adopt since a large fraction of your production capacity will become tied up in ingratiating yourself with one or two neighbors?

Its not the converting of neighbours to your religion I would be most concerned about, its the ability to readily break up diplomatic blocks by converting the entire populace of a civ.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Its not the converting of neighbours to your religion I would be most concerned about, its the ability to readily break up diplomatic blocks by converting the entire populace of a civ.

Spiritual would have a field day. You could turn someone into a giant target and swap back into the favored religion in 5 turns, at no anarchy cost.

However, especially the missionary limit is very inconvenient when trying to hammer them out, because the game doesn't let you queue things like that up when you can't build them. Annoying, but not as annoying as being unable to queue things that have their pre-reqs ahead of them in the queue (factory/coal would be AMAZING to queue when you're trying to blaze through in a position of advantage but NOPE).

 

[MilesBeyond]

Because the AP is cheesy enough without having the ability to mass spam your religion.

Organised Religion is very nice for the hammer bonus for building, and to an extent to allow missionaries to be built without Monasteries, while Pacifism is a very powerful economic civic. Also consider that the wonders that impact religious buildings (Sankore, S.Minarat and Sistine) only work on your state religion buildings.

Does the hammer bonus from OR apply to wonder production? I was under the impression that it only aided in buildings.

Also, Monasteries are nice buildings to have around. Very low hammer cost, good to great cultural value depending on how early you build them, and a cumulative 10% science boost. I usually end up switching to Pacifism sooner rather than later because I've usually got quite a number of Monasteries up and running already.

 

[Um the Muse]

However, especially the missionary limit is very inconvenient when trying to hammer them out, because the game doesn't let you queue things like that up when you can't build them. Annoying, but not as annoying as being unable to queue things that have their pre-reqs ahead of them in the queue (factory/coal would be AMAZING to queue when you're trying to blaze through in a position of advantage but NOPE).

Oh yeah, that really annoys me too. I guess it was to make sure that you build X buildings before constructing certain wonders or Cathedrals, but it still bugs me a little.

Does the hammer bonus from OR apply to wonder production? I was under the impression that it only aided in buildings.

Also, Monasteries are nice buildings to have around. Very low hammer cost, good to great cultural value depending on how early you build them, and a cumulative 10% science boost. I usually end up switching to Pacifism sooner rather than later because I've usually got quite a number of Monasteries up and running already.

Yes, the OR bonus applies to wonders. I think that I heard that that was a bug, but it seems reasonable for it to be included when you consider its cost anyway.

On paper, Monasteries for culture make a lot of sense, but in practice it seems impractical for a lot of cases. If only you could build monasteries without a major religion in the city (a shrine to your ancestors, hey?). Then we could get rid of those silly Monuments.

The science bonus is good for the cost, but that only applies to your commerce cities. I don't know what Monasteries have to do with Pacifism. Are you still talking about the science boost?

 

[paladin_soul]

In a monarch or higher level game, maintaining religious economy is comparably inefficient. Income from holy city cannot be transformed into research points. I would rather train more workers and axemen^_^