Limiting SoD

LouLong

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OK, sorry if it has been said before but I did not find it listed.

Please limit SoDs by having a max number of troops on one given square.
Maybe 20, 25 or 30 but not much more.

Others migt like real huge SoDs but they are inaccurate (for geographical (place) and logistical reasons, they are "crazy" and overpowered (so not very interesting) and I guess they were not really intended (as the list sometimes go below screen level).

So stacks : Yes but unlimited : No
 
Hell, I would go further and say that, even on open PLAINS (no roads), the maximum number of units in a single stack should be around 10 (perhaps even less). The actual number allowed on a square should depend, also, on the terrain type and the unit type (so, for instance, you can fit more infantry on a square than tanks).
You can have more units on a square than it can support, of course, but doing so will severely reduce the effectiveness of ALL units in the stack!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.
 
This was in Call to Power, and was a feature I liked. But the problem was getting units through cities when there's already the maximum of units in it.

So perhaps a more elegant solution would be to have as many units on a square as you want, but defense would go down. :)
 
Thats pretty much what I am advocating, Zeek. Another notion might be that a unit can PASS through a tile which is already at its 'stack-limit', but if it remains there, then it will degrade unit performance AND run the risk of causing unit damage and/or loss of morale!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.
 
oh, not this chestnut again.

Korea in the 1980s had 500,000 men under arms. Conscript class troops to be sure, but in an area equal to maybe 12 tiles tops, it had what amounts to maybe 50 units. Thats 4 units per tile without particularly trying.

Modern cities can easily have a population density of 30,000 people per square kilometre - Macau manages that. In a 10 mile square tile, that would be 7,500,000 people, or maybe 750 units. And a tile on world maps is usually closer to 80 miles on a side.

There is no useful hard stacking limit that can be applied that is in any way shape or form realistic.

However, I feel a soft stacking limit can be made. Perhaps after you stack a certain number of units, the defenders have a combat penalty, or perhaps collateral damage is applied to all units in the tile if the main defender is destroyed.
 
Stacking limitations in most tabletop wargames (which is where this idea originated) are an attempt to represent the limitations of road capacity. Certain games allowed unlimited stacking on highways and railways, and the stack sizes were only limited in areas presumed to have only minor secondary roads (that is, areas with no roads on the map). Other games simply had "one size fits all" stack limits applying to every hex.

If your stacks are of limited size, then the forces which can effectively be fighting at the front are also limited (as supplies too must be supplied ultimately by road, even if they are coming off a railhead behind the front, and your force can't be any larger than what you can supply).

Generally such games applied such rules in addition to supply rules, to create a full model of certain logistic phenomena.

It's a game mechanic to represent a certain phenomena, as such the reasons for it are not immediatly obvious. But that is pretty much the story behind stack limits.

Its a very scale-dependant phenomena, and it shouldn't be present in civ unless it is to fix a specific gameplay or balance problem.
 
In real life, there is obviously there is some theoretical limit. The realism buffs just complain about the calculation of the amount of area in a tile and work out how many men could be fit in there -- who cares. We know there's a limit, and if they imposed a limit of 5 units in a square, people would understand that there's just not enough room. It's realistic enough, and intuitive.

And it would lead to way more strategy.
 
Anything that spreads the units, impairs defense- At least in the current combat system.

It also reduces offensives units ability to do defense.

If this is something we want, fine.
 
ok, some numbers from history instead...

Normandy invasion - 156,000 allied soldiers, about 31 units.
Stalingrad - 600,000 Russians, about 120 units, albeit spread over 7.5 months.
Caesar vs Pompey - Pompey commanded 100,000 men, or 20 units
Thermopylae - estimates of Xerxes' army vary between 150,000 men and 1,000,000 men. The most conservative value gives 30 units.
Battle of the Bulge - 200,000 germans, or 40 units.

nb - I assume 5000 men represents a unit where all the men are presumed to be active combatants. The 10,000 men per unit in my earlier post represents an assumption that many of the men in those quoted figures would represent non-combatant support staff. The figures above suggest that a stacking limit of 60 units is entirely realistic unless you want to prevent genuine historical situations from ocuring. And 60 is high enough to render the entire concept meaningless.

This is why I think a hard stacking limit (one which absolutely prevents more than N units per tile) is useless. Anything hgh enough to be realistic is too high to provide any meaningful amount of game balancing. Stacks of Doom *are* historical.

On the other hand, I am strongly in favour of a rule that would weaken the cumulative power of stacking, such as making it easier to bombard (artillery shells may miss, but there'll still be plenty of viable targets nearby), or collateral damage if it loses a battle defending (the other units in the stack weren't on full alert because the first guy was on lookout). I call this a soft limit on stacking.
 
I like the idea of limiting the capacity of a tile, and this capaticy could vary by terrain or advances. For example, Motorized Transportation could increase the capacity. Capacity wise it should be grassland/plain > hill/forest > mountain > desert/jungle > marsh
 
Look, Rhialto, I'm sure that all of the numbers you present are totally historically accurate and REAL. But, like many other people have said, there is a point where realism must give way to gameplay-and this is one these times. Truth is that, in my civ3 games, I can do huge amounts of damage with a stack of just 8 sufficiently mixed units (say 3 bombardment units, 3 high attack units and 2 defensive units). Also, even WITHOUT a stack limit, I often split my forces into multiple stacks of less than 10 each (might be a hangover from my civ2 days :mischief: . You know, where if you lost 1 unit in a stack, you lost EVERYONE!!!!)
So, really, I don't see why a stack limit of some sort can't be imposed. I do agree, however, that it ought to be a SOFT limit, with perhaps one lower number-which represents IDEAL conditions, and a larger upper number which represents an absolute number-for certain terrain types only (like mountains and Jungles and Forests) Between these two numbers, though, performance should degrade significantly AND they should possibly sustain 'collateral damage' from bombardment attacks!

Oh and, the population a city can sustain is all well and good-but remember that these people are very often stacked UP as well as across an area. Also, if you already HAVE the civilian population there, WHERE are you gonna put the soldiers??

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.
 
ok, lets assume an 80x80 mile tile (accurate for a 256-tile world map), no building upwards (or underground), max 10% of the people are militarised (the upper limit on most modern armies), 10k soldiers count as one unit, and a population density of 1 person per 2000 square metres (quite a decent amount of living area, and approximately double the world average population density including such high density areas as Antarctica).

That's still 83 units. :mischief:

One little change I think would weaken the SOD concept is that the defending unit is chosen randomly (perhaps weighted accoridng to teh units' defence factors), rather than automatically being the best guy in the stack. Put a lot of good defenders in there and you improve your odds of having a real defence in there. But it gives a strong disincentive to having one defender and a horse of attackers.
 
dh_epic said:
In real life, there is obviously there is some theoretical limit. The realism buffs just complain about the calculation of the amount of area in a tile and work out how many men could be fit in there -- who cares. We know there's a limit, and if they imposed a limit of 5 units in a square, people would understand that there's just not enough room. It's realistic enough, and intuitive.

And it would lead to way more strategy.

As I mentioned, the usual idea behind stack limits is not based on the number of people that can fit in a square, rather on other factors, primarily transport and supply factors. At least this is how the idea developed in those games where stack limitations first appeared (ie tabletop Avalon Hill style hex-and-chits wargames).

When you're thinking in terms of stack limits remember that a turn-based game is trying to approximate the real world, where everything doesn't "freeze" at the end of the week, that is locations are not as static as the nature of turn based games would seem. Stack limits more or less represent what you can move through a square, not necessarily what you can have on a square, although they also represent the maximum amount of forces you can supply in a given location. Stack limits also model organizational limitations, because for modern armies, the more concentrated the forces, the more strain it puts on organization overall. Not only does it strain logistic organization, it also strains command, beyond a certain point of concentration.

It's difficult to justify stack limits for ancient armies as easily, because of course the limitations of roads and their ability to bear heavy equipment and vast amounts of supplies really isn't a factor. It doesn't emulate well the pattern of ancient warfare, which was based more on large concentrated field armies mixed with small, scattered garrisons protecting a radius; contrasted to modern warfare, which consists (well, until recently) of front lines, with armies deployed along vast ranges. Concentration occurs in modern warfare, but it is the exception not the rule, and it is usually a major logistic feat, one which more or less happens only at beachheads. More typically combat occurs along a very broad area relative to ancient warfare. The Battle of Stalingrad or the Battle of Kursk for instance occurred across a length of a hundred or miles, and an area of thousands of square miles, but most ancient battles occurred on a single square mile, sometimes two or three at the most.

Also given Civ's distortions in scales of time and space, its difficult to say if stacking is truly realistic or not. In short, stacking represents finite limitations of transport and supply factors (not how many fit in an area) over time, and both area and time are quite distorted in Civ.

The biggest problem of course is how do you model stacking limitations when the nature of transport and supply are changing so rapidly in the game? Without devising an overly complex formula that renders most planning impossible it wouldn't be at all easy. And of course there are other considerations, such as whether or not it is even a necessary model in terms of the Ancient and Middle eras.
 
@Frekk
That population based approach is entirely relevant to the transport issues you mention, as population density and transport facilities are introinsically related; you can't have a high population density if teh transport network is insufficient to take those people to their daily work, or to take food into those places.
 
But, but... (call me a masochist) huge SoDs are FUN! ;)

There's nothing like a stack of 350 AI pikemen in an ancient era only scenario!!! :D

Who knows, maybe someone WANTS to have that number of pikes in a stack. (i.e., they're representing the game on a really huge map).
 
Not that I think anyone would care, but this sort of implimentation would make Multi-Player games impossible. And considering Firaxis has already announced that MP is going to be in from the start (and was working probably a year ago), I wouldn't expect to see something like this. ;)

Unless somebody can come up with an idea to reconcile this with MP...
 
I'm not sure how this is incompatible with multiplayer...

But all things considered, I don't think realism needs to be done by applying mathematical formulas. It's just this simple "you can only fit so many units in a single area". If it happens that you can only fit 5 spearmen units in there, you kind of assume that the number of spearmen and all the supplies and equipment take up the amount of space that is available.

Realism is only important to the point that it feels and appears real. Nobody is measuring the bounces in grand theft auto and saying "that bounce is WAY to high for real life" -- you don't mind that they embellish a little because you can still basically understand what's going on and the relationship to the real world.

But again, that's assuming there isn't something better than a hard limit. I'd be happy with a hard limit, but other stuff like punishing the standard "large army" paradigm by fighting more of a guerilla "spread and annoy" style, that could work too.
 
dh_epic said:
I'm not sure how this is incompatible with multiplayer...
Which goes to show how little MP you've played. ;)

In MP all unit management depends on stacks. If you force a player to spread his units out then MP will degenerate into a quagmire which depends even more than before on who can click fastest. It would essentially turn into a RTS game.
 
Ginger_Ale said:
Why don't you just make it an option?

Chieftess: How do you get pikemen in an ancient-only scenario? :P

I meant early middle ages scenario. :p

dh_epic said:
I'm not sure how this is incompatible with multiplayer...

But all things considered, I don't think realism needs to be done by applying mathematical formulas. It's just this simple "you can only fit so many units in a single area". If it happens that you can only fit 5 spearmen units in there, you kind of assume that the number of spearmen and all the supplies and equipment take up the amount of space that is available.

Considering the average person has 3 square feet of space (maybe troops marching in formation), in a 1 square mile tile, you could fit 3,097,600 troops. In Civ3's "10x10 mile tile", that's 309,760,000 troops. The point is, one "unit' in a game can represent 1, 10, 100, 1000, 10,000 troops, and so on.
 
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