LK120 - Egypt, Monarchy, Just Win
- Thread starter LKendter
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I can not really decide right now befor I look at save, but what about settling near stone? City will have easy accessable stone and horses in fat cross. I can not see does it has any sea resources (I believe there still fog). If it does, it could be a disent city. I probably would not settle it as second, but may be as thurd. I am at work right now and can not really think. I tend to have a rule never go after wander if I can not use resource associated. Am I correct that no religion were discovered yet?
DementedAvenger
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Mutineer said:
If there are no sea resources, then we shouldn't settle there, as the city couldn't ever grow past size 3. The opportunity cost of wasting a settler doesn't make up for stone, IMHO. The Pyramids aren't as necessary as everybody seems to think - for non-philosophical civs I actually prefer hereditary rule to representation.
If we're desperate for stone we could build on the grassland that gets us pigs and stone in the fat cross. We can just use the northern horses and let the southern horses remain unpasteurized.
Also, looking at the save I notice mysticism is queued as the next tech to research - what's your thinking here?
DementedAvenger
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Re: the dotmap, what do you guys think about moving the yellow dot one tile south to pick up the substantial commerce from the extra dye? This would also allow to pick up the western clams with a city NW of the cows.
I did not think about Piramids, may be if no AI get it mach later. To invest way to early in such expencive wander is no that good idea. About happiness. It is my observation that people tend to underuse Dramma. Dramma really provide very cheap and flexible source of happiness. It is especially good for spawning empire. If I undestand correctly we are on a big continent but far away from any other civs on this continent. So, early war is out of question. On other hand that will mean that we will need to staik claim on our teretory early on. In that case we might complitly ignore religious branch of tree for some time. For tech we could go writing-alphavit-dramma-mathematic-music. Underused on this board but it has a lot of +.
First, all this tech has trade value.
Second, I really like dramma as happiness source.
Thurd, Music give free GA with I often use for obtaining Cristianity.
Fouth, Taoism lying the same way. Taoism can be taken stright after music with GS.
Cons:
1) Currency coming late. Currency often give a big boost to civ from additional trade route. If other civs far away we would not be able to trade with them untill saling and I do not see need in saling right now.
2) Col coming later. In my expirience is not a big problem if we grow population fast with culture slider. Each new population cost less and less as more population towns have converging to 0.5 gp/pop and if we keep empire not to spead out.
Personally I am in favor of aborting Musticism, as we do not need stonehedge.
We are creative, are not we? GP point nice, but does it good enogth to compencate for 120 early shields? Well, if we have stone hooked and no one build it yet, then I would whipe it, but otherwize...
First, all this tech has trade value.
Second, I really like dramma as happiness source.
Thurd, Music give free GA with I often use for obtaining Cristianity.
Fouth, Taoism lying the same way. Taoism can be taken stright after music with GS.
Cons:
1) Currency coming late. Currency often give a big boost to civ from additional trade route. If other civs far away we would not be able to trade with them untill saling and I do not see need in saling right now.
2) Col coming later. In my expirience is not a big problem if we grow population fast with culture slider. Each new population cost less and less as more population towns have converging to 0.5 gp/pop and if we keep empire not to spead out.
Personally I am in favor of aborting Musticism, as we do not need stonehedge.
We are creative, are not we? GP point nice, but does it good enogth to compencate for 120 early shields? Well, if we have stone hooked and no one build it yet, then I would whipe it, but otherwize...
DementedAvenger
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I believe HR is a lot better than drama for managing happiness. For a city with about 30 base commerce, you need 20% on the slider (with a theatre) to get 4 happy faces. Disaggregating total commerce (focusing just on this city), this costs us 6 base commerce, which is probably 8 total beakers.
Using MP only costs 4 gold (and this is assuming we are over the unit limit), assures we have enough units to defend against sneak attacks or upgrade obsolete units in an emergency. It is also much more efficient as we can allocate soldiers to where we need them for happiness instead of being forced to set empire-wide culture rate to ensure that our biggest city is happy. If our biggest city needs a 30% culture rate but all our other cities need just a 10% culture rate, that's 20% wasted commerce for most of our empire.
Using MP only costs 4 gold (and this is assuming we are over the unit limit), assures we have enough units to defend against sneak attacks or upgrade obsolete units in an emergency. It is also much more efficient as we can allocate soldiers to where we need them for happiness instead of being forced to set empire-wide culture rate to ensure that our biggest city is happy. If our biggest city needs a 30% culture rate but all our other cities need just a 10% culture rate, that's 20% wasted commerce for most of our empire.
Ok, My plan for my turn. Settle city on yellow dot.
Do not move yellow dot south because we loose the only food special avalible, cow.
Hook up horses. With chariots we would not need archers for barb defence if we smart. Chariots with Flank1/sentery promotion...
They have a huge visibility range and actially see better from flat then from hill. Very good for fog busting and beating archers and even axes on flat.
Archers could be beaten on defence, Axes are beatable on flat, a bit hurder on hills (bring 3 just in case). So, if we avoide for start setling in near Jungle or establish foog busters we will be more then fine with chariots.
So, my plan: settle yellow dot, connect horses. Research direction - alphavit beeline. You have 3 hours for comments befor I start playing
Do not move yellow dot south because we loose the only food special avalible, cow.
Hook up horses. With chariots we would not need archers for barb defence if we smart. Chariots with Flank1/sentery promotion...
They have a huge visibility range and actially see better from flat then from hill. Very good for fog busting and beating archers and even axes on flat.
Archers could be beaten on defence, Axes are beatable on flat, a bit hurder on hills (bring 3 just in case). So, if we avoide for start setling in near Jungle or establish foog busters we will be more then fine with chariots.
So, my plan: settle yellow dot, connect horses. Research direction - alphavit beeline. You have 3 hours for comments befor I start playing
DementedAvenger
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Mutineer said:Ok, My plan for my turn. Settle city on yellow dot.
Do not move yellow dot south because we loose the only food special avalible, cow.
Hook up horses. With chariots we would not need archers for barb defence if we smart. Chariots with Flank1/sentery promotion...
They have a huge visibility range and actially see better from flat then from hill. Very good for fog busting and beating archers and even axes on flat.
Archers could be beaten on defence, Axes are beatable on flat, a bit hurder on hills (bring 3 just in case). So, if we avoide for start setling in near Jungle or establish foog busters we will be more then fine with chariots.
So, my plan: settle yellow dot, connect horses. Research direction - alphavit beeline. You have 3 hours for comments befor I start playing
The bananas are all the food we will need. Before calendar it will grow at the same rate we can cottage / clear jungle as long as it has a granary, so even just a 2 food surplus won't be a problem. We can always farm a grassland to speed growth up by 50% if our workers are getting behind.
Alphabet beeline can be good for early brokeraging monopoly, but I wouldn't go all the way to drama or music - with no copper nearby we're bound to have iron, and knowing where the iron is ahead of time will help with city placement.
Cottage stright away everywhere? Bad idea in my book. It might be ok idea for commercial civ, but otherwize there better ways on start. Bananas avalible after callendar. Cottages near capital when it's production ability are no longer needed = good idea. We could think about iron, do we research it or get tech by trade. AI tend to research it fast. As we will be skeeping hunting/archery and get lucky pottery from the hut we might be in position to capitalise on it. Early dramma is allways best solution if one luck early happiness resource. For just 10% (which you pay only in capital or really commercial towns), you get 2 happy, whitch increase size of your cities by 50%. It is especially effective with early scientist specialist economy, which can work mach early and faster then iron working avalible or Jungle clearning started. There was a game when I was lonly on island and was running 40% culture slider, 30% research and 30% taxes and did not had col when contact with other cive were made. After I contacted most civs I trade my techs and finish to be hight ahead of all pack. It was monarch dificulty game.
As some one sad in this tread, immidiate gain is often more important in civ. I do not allways agree, but in that case immidiat productive city using Cow is mach better then use dyes by the same city in some remote future. We can full gap with 11 ties city to work in between our major cities. This kind of cities have there own special use and could be very effective.
As some one sad in this tread, immidiate gain is often more important in civ. I do not allways agree, but in that case immidiat productive city using Cow is mach better then use dyes by the same city in some remote future. We can full gap with 11 ties city to work in between our major cities. This kind of cities have there own special use and could be very effective.
DementedAvenger
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With the large production our capital should have, I think that it makes sense to cottage everywhere (maybe a farm or two to get things rolling) for a city that has 2 dyes, a river, and tons of grassland.
Do you agree with me about the yellow dot one tile to the south? Does anybody else have an opinion on this?
Do you agree with me about the yellow dot one tile to the south? Does anybody else have an opinion on this?
lurker comment:
"No copper, lousy luxuries, and no sign of religion = suck IMO."
Ah yes, but you're set up perfectly for your UU (and the gems have a food-bonus nearby to feed them.
Your UU is cheap (it's also immune to first strikes, unlike the regular chariot, so is better for attacking archers in cities), and you'll have tons of hammers from the capital alone. Your biggest worry will be paying the distance maintenance for Liz and Cathy's capitals.
The scout location would have been unbelievably nuts long-term with the extra pig and all those hills, but now you have more room for a city later to the south, so no biggie.
"No copper, lousy luxuries, and no sign of religion = suck IMO."
Ah yes, but you're set up perfectly for your UU (and the gems have a food-bonus nearby to feed them.
Your UU is cheap (it's also immune to first strikes, unlike the regular chariot, so is better for attacking archers in cities), and you'll have tons of hammers from the capital alone. Your biggest worry will be paying the distance maintenance for Liz and Cathy's capitals.
The scout location would have been unbelievably nuts long-term with the extra pig and all those hills, but now you have more room for a city later to the south, so no biggie.
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DementedAvenger said:
I know at some point I would really like a religion. We might still have a chance at Judiasm. With having 1/2 price temples we really want a religion, or we are throwing away one of our traits.
There is no rush for a military tech, as War Chariots are cheap and will hold for awhile. Not to mention the lack of metal...
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DementedAvenger said:
The city is a would be killed short-term until calendar, and would suck for growth until then.
The advantage would be another whiptastic city could be built for claims and cows. Since I am heading to work shortly I don't have the time to propose anything else before the game is played.
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Mutineer said:
If we really want stone, I think it can be claimed via a desert tile that will also work those pigs. For early cities I really want a bonus food tile.
The best are those whiptastic cities. We are already in slavery, and with a lot of
you will be amazed how much can be built in those towns.Well, I played my turns, coresponded to my outlined plan.
I am agains early war as I found all 3 civ we contacted and they are far, far away.
0) 2600 change Mysticism to writing
1) 2560 Setler - Granary
2) 2520 zzzz
3) 2480 Settle Memphis on Yellow dot. started Granary.
4) 2440 zzzz
5) 2400 Thiebes whiped Granary for 2
6) 2360 Thiebes Granary- worker (overflow from whipe)
Katherine wanted Open border, refuse for a time.
7) 2320 Thiebes worker switched to barack to let Thiebes grow back to 4.
8) 2280 Memphis border expand
9) 2240 Writing - Alphavet
10) 2200 zzzzz
11) 2160 Liz Open border - refuse.
Thiebes grow 4, whiped worker for 2
12) 2080 Theibes worker -Barrack (overflow)
13) 2040 Memphis grow 2
14) 2000 Theibes switched to setler to stop growing.
when UnHappiness reduced by 1 (aprohimatly 2 turns) suggest return back to barrack to let it grow 1 pop.
My Target I set to me is fulfilled, horses are connected.
I am agains early war as I found all 3 civ we contacted and they are far, far away.
0) 2600 change Mysticism to writing
1) 2560 Setler - Granary
2) 2520 zzzz
3) 2480 Settle Memphis on Yellow dot. started Granary.
4) 2440 zzzz
5) 2400 Thiebes whiped Granary for 2
6) 2360 Thiebes Granary- worker (overflow from whipe)
Katherine wanted Open border, refuse for a time.
7) 2320 Thiebes worker switched to barack to let Thiebes grow back to 4.
8) 2280 Memphis border expand
9) 2240 Writing - Alphavet
10) 2200 zzzzz
11) 2160 Liz Open border - refuse.
Thiebes grow 4, whiped worker for 2
12) 2080 Theibes worker -Barrack (overflow)
13) 2040 Memphis grow 2
14) 2000 Theibes switched to setler to stop growing.
when UnHappiness reduced by 1 (aprohimatly 2 turns) suggest return back to barrack to let it grow 1 pop.
My Target I set to me is fulfilled, horses are connected.
DementedAvenger
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LKendter said:
I don't know, I think that if we whip a granary, plop 1 or 2 farms down, and cottage the rest, it will be a commerce powerhouse in no time. Farming the bananas makes a 4-food tile, just as good as cows.
DementedAvenger
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Well, it's moot now anyways. Got it.
Does anybody have any suggestions?
Does anybody have any suggestions?
DementedAvenger
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Pretty straightforward set of turns.
I didn't change research on alphabet, but whoever's next may want to take a 4-turn detour to fishing to start bulding workboats in our whiptastic city.
At turn 0, Thebes was working on a settler, but was just one turn away from growth so I decided to let it grow out a little bit. I actually let it grow out a lot bit, growing 2 over the happiness limit to size 6 before starting work on a settler, and whipping it to completion the following turn. This maneuver saved 3 turns on the settler.
I also whipped the granary in memphis and started work on a library. The Memphis worker roaded and pastured the cows, and built a cottage. The Thebes worker built hills to keep production up when we have to halt growth due to happiness problems.
I think the next city should be built here - LK is right that whipping is incredibly powerful with 3 food sources, and we're lucky enough to have 2 such cities at close range to our capital. Our settler is on route to the first in the NE.
The War Chariot due next turn in the capital should probably be sent up here as there's just a warrior for defense right now. I probably should have sent the first chariot over there to protect the city, but we'd have to get pretty unlucky for a barb archer to pop out of the fog in the next couple of turns and defeat our fortified warrior on a jungle hill. Feel free to blame me if that happens.
The capital will be able to make chariots every couple of turns once the worker finishes the mine. It's probably a good idea to pump out chariots in the capital while we're waiting for whip unhappiness to subside. Once it does subside though, it can grow to size 6 (should only take a couple turns), and then switch to a settler or worker and whip it next turn for 3 pop. Whipping is much more efficient in terms of hammers / unhappiness when you whip more citizens at one time.
The save:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/LK120_BC-1600.Civ4SavedGame
Spoiler :
I didn't change research on alphabet, but whoever's next may want to take a 4-turn detour to fishing to start bulding workboats in our whiptastic city.
At turn 0, Thebes was working on a settler, but was just one turn away from growth so I decided to let it grow out a little bit. I actually let it grow out a lot bit, growing 2 over the happiness limit to size 6 before starting work on a settler, and whipping it to completion the following turn. This maneuver saved 3 turns on the settler.
I also whipped the granary in memphis and started work on a library. The Memphis worker roaded and pastured the cows, and built a cottage. The Thebes worker built hills to keep production up when we have to halt growth due to happiness problems.
I think the next city should be built here - LK is right that whipping is incredibly powerful with 3 food sources, and we're lucky enough to have 2 such cities at close range to our capital. Our settler is on route to the first in the NE.
The War Chariot due next turn in the capital should probably be sent up here as there's just a warrior for defense right now. I probably should have sent the first chariot over there to protect the city, but we'd have to get pretty unlucky for a barb archer to pop out of the fog in the next couple of turns and defeat our fortified warrior on a jungle hill. Feel free to blame me if that happens.
The capital will be able to make chariots every couple of turns once the worker finishes the mine. It's probably a good idea to pump out chariots in the capital while we're waiting for whip unhappiness to subside. Once it does subside though, it can grow to size 6 (should only take a couple turns), and then switch to a settler or worker and whip it next turn for 3 pop. Whipping is much more efficient in terms of hammers / unhappiness when you whip more citizens at one time.
The save:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/LK120_BC-1600.Civ4SavedGame
I really do not want to be negative, but we can not found whiptastic city here just yet.
First, it will have negative health at size 1,
Second, we do not have fishing yet.
Thurd, this city is very far away, will cost higth upkeep
and serve no immidiat purpouse.
I do not know how recover from lost time, but I would suggest to run back at settle i spot to claim stone. I can not suggest exec spot becouse fog is not busted yet. In case if no question marks had any sea resources I would sugest this spot for thurd city.
First, it will have negative health at size 1,
Second, we do not have fishing yet.
Thurd, this city is very far away, will cost higth upkeep
and serve no immidiat purpouse.
I do not know how recover from lost time, but I would suggest to run back at settle i spot to claim stone. I can not suggest exec spot becouse fog is not busted yet. In case if no question marks had any sea resources I would sugest this spot for thurd city.
