LK44, 1.14 patch, AW suicide mission

[LKendter]

Ouch - it looks like I misread the dot map

Let's hope the Colossus helps enough with revenue.

How quickly to we start a pre-build for the next wonder? Having done AW several times before, I know that the Great Library is a major plus. My vote is a palace pre-build as soon as viable in our wonder town.

 

[Cartouche Bee]

In 2 turns it builds the temple and after that it is clear to pursue a wonder. yes, having the palace/FP to fall back onto in a cascade keeps it a safe gamble.

[Edit:] Skipping the temple will save about 7 towards the next wonder, going for the Great Library hard may be worth it. I suggest dropping that temple build and going for it. In just over 30 turns we have another wonder.

 

[Cartouche Bee]

Originally posted by T-hawk

I would still advocate minimum science on Monarchy. That still lets us take the more useful wonder (the Pyramids), and gives us a guaranteed few hundred cash to buy techs when contact is made, instead of an all-or-nothing risk on Monarchy. Also, we don't lose all our trade bait if a galley comes by and makes contact sooner. Minimum Monarchy still gets us the benefits of getting into the government soon (it's only a 5-8 turn difference between min and max) and the attendant Golden Age benefit. Finally, we COULD get the best of both worlds: several hundred cash AND the ability to trade Monarchy, if the contact is delayed long enough.

In short, there's a 5-8 turn window that if the contact comes then, we should have researched Monarchy at max. However, the contact is more likely to come before or after that window, in which case we will want to have done Monarchy at minimum.

Cartouche, got all that?

T-Hawk I played this after sleeping on it and I had not read this part of the post before playing.

Those are good points and I like the idea of being able to purchase cheap low rated techs and cash will allow for more flexible trading. Maybe we will get monarchy before we meet the others and still have some cash built up.

When we started the drive to Monarchy we decided to beeline to get the advantage of getting to our preferred government type, switching ASAP and being able to trade through to the end of ancient times off those techs on first contact. I hope it still works out that way.

If it turns out that we could have got the pyramids, I hope this move on my part does not lose the game for us. Hopefully the Great Library or Hanging Gardens will make up a bit for not getting the pyramids.

 

[meldor]

One thing that I find slightly off in the analysis is the fact that it is that the monetary difference between the two options assumed the cost savings of building a granary in every city. Without the pyramids, it is unlikely that we will build one in every city. Those fishing villages are fine but the addition of a granary won't make them that much more viable.

I like the Colossus mostly for the fact that I think it will get us more cash over time. In all of the AW games I have played, having the cash to rush buy one or two critical units can make a huge differnce.

Second, it seems we are more limited (with our push to monarchy) in just how much population we can get and it still be productive, lessening the benefits of the Pyramids. After we get the tech trades (hopefully) and the infrastructure to help. I think we will find this was the best choice.

I think that with our current position that control of luses will be more critical than which wonders we took. Hopefully Carthage will have some for us.

BTW, has anyone settled the pennisula to the north? I wonder if we could aim to get a settler and defense there asap. If no one has settled ther by now, maybe it isn't part of the main landmass and is a small island.

 

[ToddMarshall]

@Meldor - Nope, hasn't been settled, and you are probably right about it being an island because of that. I see that CB went full bore on Monarchy and that we can get it several turns faster than 40 would have gotten it so the Colossus may have been the best move anyway. If it turns out we could have gotten the Pyramids or library....... well, oh well. Being that this is AW and we have terrible happyness issues, the Wall and Gardens will also be of great benifit, and I'd bet we can secure one of those at worst.

I agree with your analasys on the fact we wouldn't build a grainery in some of those cities anyway, at least not in the tundra ones and with cities maxing out, we can allways skim off workrs and merge them. There isn't much point in ducts right now. We'd be chewing up most of our increased revenue to raise the lux rate. Once that city gets improvements (library/bank/uni/market) we may find this is a good thing, esp if we can manage to stack Newton's and CoP there.

It is debatable.
Pyramids = Great IF we didn't get beat to them, and the best option many turns down the road.
Library = Awsome IF we can get the tech in time to switch to it and survive a possible Pyramids cascade.
Colossus = Immdiate benifits, definatley buildable, and 2nd wonder (library/gardens/or even the wall (this is AW so even this wonder has value) may be possible. It is also a worthless wonder to capture in most cases as its going to be in a highly corrupt city most likely.

I would lay good odds that that city over there is Carthage, and because it is an industrius civ, id lay good odds on it building the pyramids or library for us. I'd say 50/50 it gets one of them. If it builds either, we get big benifits from capture. Garineries in all cities on THAT continent.... hopefully NOT annother island civ...., or free techs. Yeah, that is a wildly speculative gamble, but welcome to LK44 - this whole game is like a cross between a dieity space race and a trip to Vegas

Deciding which wonder is better is like picking which pony to play at the track. We just don't really know till the race is over. (That being said, I'm glad we took take the colossus to place )

 

[T-hawk]

Actually, I must have vastly underrated our future beaker-producing ability. We're producing 27 beakers now - almost double as when I did my analysis. Not sure where all that came from, but given that, Monarchy at max is the way to go.

meldor: Those fishing villages will get granaries if I'm in the game Growth every 20 turns without, or 10 turns with; a no-brainer in my book.


I got it, will fix these issues:

Swap Susa to a wonder now, absolutely. Lux tax isn't going to drop below 20% for a while, and Susa's happy enough right there at size 6. No temple needed.

And no specialists! Never slow city growth in the early game. Get Arbela and Antioch back to work, and get worker labor to them.

Since we passed on the Pyramids, all our decent cities will need to build granaries. Pasargadae can crank out workers nicely once it gets one, and Arbela, Antioch, Tarsus, Susa will need them for growth. And Antioch is building the temple that we told it not to build because we want to delay the contact. Granary instead.

On the current turn, Persepolis wasn't using the irrigated game tile - good, since it only needs 2 food to grow. But Pasargadae wasn't assigned to use the tile; it can get extra food this turn.

I think Cartouche needs to lay off the

 

[Cartouche Bee]

On the current turn, Persepolis wasn't using the irrigated game tile - good, since it only needs 2 food to grow. But Pasargadae wasn't assigned to use the tile; it can get extra food this turn.

I think Cartouche needs to lay off the

Going for that spearman in 3 instead of 4, I'm usually the food Nazi but these variant rules are getting me to go down other roads.

 

[T-hawk]

Inherited turn:

Who sold the barracks in Persepolis? The city has nothing else to build besides military (it doesn't need a temple for a while), and we'll want three MP for all our cities in Monarchy, and as Lee said they may as well be veterans. City swapped back to a barracks.

Pasargadae, Arbela, Antioch, Tyre, Tarsus, Gordium, Bactra swapped to granaries. Pasargade needs it to crank workers, and the others need it to grow.

Susa swapped to a Palace wonder prebuild.

All specialists fired. Raises Monarchy from 21 turns to 22. Pasargadae assigned to work the game tile for this turn.

Cartouche, I need to have a talk with you about worker management. "What Can Wait Must Wait." "Improve Good Tiles Immediately." Why's a worker mining a hill at Pasargadae? The city's got a ton of forests that produce just as many shields as a hill under despotism. It will help absolutely nothing until we get into Monarchy, 30 turns from now. Getting Antioch and Tyre off the ground here in despotism is more important. And there's a grassland square at Arbela OUTSIDE OUR BORDERS that got improved before one INSIDE our borders.

And there's a worker clearing a forest at Tarsus, when there's an unimproved grassland sitting right next to the city. The worker clearing the northern furs forest is correct, since we need to irrigate through that square to Antioch, although it should've been assisted by the other worker at Pasargadae.

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Not much to report turn-by-turn, just micromanaging the cities.

I cleared Gordium's forest-game and got a line of irrigation to the tile so Gordium can grow at a decent rate. Do not mine over these tiles; they aren't needed in despotism (Persepolis is already at 10 shields/turn and more doesn't help much), and Persepolis and Tarsus at least will make use of the 3-food tiles in Monarchy.

Persepolis reached size 6 and 10 shields/turn. The pattern this city should follow is warrior, warrior, worker, producing the worker just on the turn of growth to size 7. (Or one spear or archer instead of the two warriors if you like.)

Irrigation reached Tyre and Antioch.

Pasargadae built a granary and can pump workers every two turns - I recommend having it continue to do that.

Susa's 400-shield Palace will complete in 23 turns; let's hope that we can actually get contact and Literature by then

Monarchy is now due in 13 turns, and this is SUSTAINABLE, unlike when Cartouche passed to me with it due in 21 but running -4 gold/turn. (Running that deficit then was good, though.)

========

A map for the onlookers:

Don't move Gordium; yeah, it's on the wrong site, but all it loses is a bunch of water that it probably wouldn't work until hospitals anyway.

Sardis and Sidon are on granaries; if we get Map Making before those complete, switch them to harbors. I would also recommend doing a switch-whip-switch for exactly 20 shields when each city hits size 2 (10 turns in Sidon, 14 in Sardis.) The reason is that the cities can't pull ANY food surplus at size 2, but they can at size 1, so we may as well turn the food into shields and have the city continue to pull food surplus.

Antioch probably wants to start a temple after this granary; it will then expand to have a tile on the other continent visible and probably make contact shortly after we get into Monarchy.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/lk44-750bc.zip

 

[T-hawk]

By the way, I peeked at F11 after posting that.

Despite Cartouche's best efforts, we are #1 in the world in population, GNP, manufactured goods, family size, and productivity!! Although #5 in Land Area, and dead last in Military Service.

 

[Cartouche Bee]

The capitol never had a barracks as far as I know it was settler factory. It now needs a temple in 3 turns, no?

If I hadn't taken the action I did, you would have inherited a turn with 40 gold in the bank and monarchy due in 37. The only reason that we work the squares or build different items is due to different objectives. There is frequently no right or wrong, it's the changing of directions that mess the outcome. Yes, I passed the game losing 4 gold per turn but the cities were growing, increasing income. Sustaining that pattern would have probably yielded monarchy in less than 10 at this point but 4 turns longer at this point probably won't make much difference if, and it's a big if without that temple to open the sights, we can make contact. The granaries in cities producing a single food surplus at this point seems rather a poor move to invest 60 shields on but should pay off by game end.

 

[T-hawk]

I thought Persepolis had a barracks when I peeked at the saves. My bad if it didn't.

No, it does not need a temple. It can stay at size 6 for some time and crank out military and workers for us. Which would you rather have right now: four police and two workers, or one temple? Easy choice for me And also, once we get into Monarchy the city can use a third police unit, so it does not need a temple until it hits size 8.

Losing money was the right thing when we had money, as I thought I did mention. I was just pointing out that we were no longer losing money.

And I said that the granaries in the fishing villages are probably harbor placeholders. If we don't get Map Making in time to change them; well, then they've got granaries and will grow twice as fast when they do get around to the harbors.

 

[ToddMarshall]

You know..... I disagree with the assessment on not building the Temple in wonder city. If it and the Capital had built temples, especially since almost everywhere else not completely growth challenged has or is, 20% lux would be un-necesary, simply 10% would be sufficient.

I realize the temple costs 1g maintenence so we are paying that g for happyness anyway, but the temple targets it to where it is needed. Also note, especially since we are building them all over elsewhere anyway and paying that g in some places that do NOT need it yet (though though some of this is for tile grabing, especially the Whales). Rather than having 20% pull one off possibly several cities at size 3 or 4 that dont need the happy tax and allready have or are going to soon have temples, I think those temples and 10% lux tax were a good long term investment.

I will capitulate to all the graineries except that one at the southernmost tip. I suspect that it is going to be extremely corrupt even with monarchy, and will likely need a grainery, harbor, court, and aquaduct, and maybe WLTKD to be worth much ever. I would have just built MP/workers out of it every 10 turns at least till we got a look at how monarchy affected our corruption level. Hopefully, I'm wrong on this guess.

Edit: Also at monarchy with 3MP we are likely to be running 10% everywhere to apease TWO cities that are just a temple short of us needing no tax.

 

[LKendter]

Summary - This was fast turn around for the round. I just played yesterday, and could be on-deck by the end of the night.

Once some of these granaries are done, we really need to get troops going. This is AW, and I would hate to see an AI landing and watch a city get toasted. At some point we should start building some spearman to leave as permanent defense. The real question is when will we be strong enough to occupy some mountains to prevent annoying AI landings?


LKendter
Cartouche Bee
T-hawk
Meldor (currently playing)
ToddMarshall (on deck)

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

We are still playing with the 1.14 patch

 

[T-hawk]

Soon enough, we'll have other larger cities that will need 20% lux anyway until they get a full complement of police and can build their own temples: Arbela, Antioch, Tarsus, and Gordium. 10% lux only would have worked because we were so slow in getting those cities developed in the first place.

The bigger issue in Susa was speed. If building the temple ended up costing us the Great Library, we'd all be gnashing our teeth and rending our garments.

Shore blockade - good idea. I think we should position warriors on mountains, maybe hills too, when we start making contacts.

 

[ToddMarshall]

On the Library, true enough, that is a concern. Does anyone have Lit yet? If we aren't first in Lit rate someone has it and is going to cascade from the Pyramids, which would suck, but fwiw, the gardens and GW will still be worth getting.

MP, not too worried, we are cranking warriors rather quicklynow yes? But until we get ducts built, 10% was enough everywhere.

One born smiley, one lux smiley, 2mp smiley, one temple smiley, and one tax smiley = 6 now, and 0% or 7 at monarchy with the additional mp. I realize that in the long run after ducts we will need 20-30%, but thats a ways off yet.

 

[meldor]

I stayed the coarse. I stopped building workers when they started eating us out of house and gpt. I switch to building just spears in Persy and Pas. Their are two taxmen keeping a positive gpt for us, one in Persy and one in Gordium.

The Carthagians built the Pyramids for us in 730 BC across the water in Carthage. In 710 BC the Aztecs completed the Great Lighthouse in Tenochtitlan. Looking at F11, it looks like the Oracle is already built as well. I hope they didn't cascade beyond the Lighthouse.

Monarcy is due in 4 and we have a big 1gpt cash flow with 6g in the treasury. We should spend this all at once though.

The temple at Antioch is 13 turns away, but could be whipped if needed.

I was getting spears into every city and then maybe we should start disbanded those regular warriors in favor of spears. Maybe even build a few archers.

I moved workers to the south to road the forested and furred tundra to generate some more income.

Saved Game

 

[ToddMarshall]

I got it. I'll play in a little bit.

 

[T-hawk]

Don't disband anything. Any spare unit we've got can pull police duty - we want 3/city total for all that - or do mountain invasion protection duty.

 

[ToddMarshall]

I never disband anything other than for occasional use in putting a shield in the box for rushing things in the industrial age, so no worries there. In case you are wondering, yes, I am playing, and have been for some time. The very fact I've been playing "for some time" should send up a warning flare that something has happened . Yes, we have contact. The game is afoot.

I may not finish this tonite as I am tired, but will finish it by tomorrow night. I will, however vindicate CB's decision to build the Colossus and max research Monarchy, as we got contact on the SAME turn we got Monarchy.

 

[LKendter]

Well I hope not TOO much contact.

To much contact will be brutal.