LK69 - Babylon - 80K challenge
- Thread starter LKendter
- Start date
Even with the luxes we still need to pay ~70gpt for that.
SesnOfWthr
True Believer
So, if the deal is expired, should I try to renew it, or should I build some trebs for later upgrade?
Hard call. I would probably try to get Horses right now, get Salt later on and do some serious upgrading -but it's debatable...
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microbe said:
Horses would let us build knights (horses + iron).
To upgrade to Cavalry we would need (horses + salt).
We would have to have both resources being imported in order to get more cavalry.
Even knights wouldn't hurt - knights can kill the next stack of Viking Bezerks...
SesnOfWthr
True Believer
Well, as I said, I can't play till much later, so let's debate. 
I would probably go for the horses, all things being equal.
EDIT: I'm an idiot.
(I was arguing for the horses, using cavs. As LK so adequately pointed out, we need salt for cavs as well.) Although we could trade for horses now, build a bunch of knights and upgrade those at a later date with a salt trade.
Alternatively, we could trade for neither and just save our money and rush a bunch of rifles and trebs.
I would probably go for the horses, all things being equal.
EDIT: I'm an idiot.
(I was arguing for the horses, using cavs. As LK so adequately pointed out, we need salt for cavs as well.) Although we could trade for horses now, build a bunch of knights and upgrade those at a later date with a salt trade.Alternatively, we could trade for neither and just save our money and rush a bunch of rifles and trebs.
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I was just going to quote the post saying that cavalry aren't much use to attack cities with, but it went away...I have shreded many cities defending with Infantry thanks to artillery SOD and cavalry.
microbe
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A couple of turns ago Mongols has 202cpt. This is more than half of ours. we have 332cpt at the end of my turns.
Mongols has only 14 cities, while we have 30 cities. Surprisingly we clearly are doing worse than the AI! I can't undersrand why it has so much culture.
This is not good. We need to rush more culture (not units) and squeeze more cities. Aside from the spot I suggested, Karasu also suggested one (check his post). We need 404cpt which is still a long way to go.
Mongols has only 14 cities, while we have 30 cities. Surprisingly we clearly are doing worse than the AI! I can't undersrand why it has so much culture.
This is not good. We need to rush more culture (not units) and squeeze more cities. Aside from the spot I suggested, Karasu also suggested one (check his post). We need 404cpt which is still a long way to go.
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microbe said:
We need to be careful where we squeeze cities. I did place another along the Zulu border during my turns. However, we need to be very careful with more cities near our core. I don't want to bump good cities down the list and destroy our productivity. I will take a look tonight and propose another dot map.
Building Knights and later upgrading seems a good choice. We will need to balance the money spent on upgrades with that spent on rushing culture buildings.
Talking about which... Mongols' culture is really surprising.
With 30 cities, with Temple + Library + Cathedral + University in each we should have 12 cpt per city => 360 cpt total, not counting the 1000-year doubling. So, something around 500-600 cpt by 1700 seems reasonable.
We are not likely to get a lot more than that: the problems will start coming when we run out of buildings to rush, which doesn't seem too far away...
EDIT: I agree that we should not squeeze cities around our core -and we haven't got many sensible places at this point. I'd go for as tight a placement as possible north-ish of Ashur.
We should also be wary not to settle too aggressively near the Zulu border, as that will make them declare war on us sooner or later.
Talking about which... Mongols' culture is really surprising.
With 30 cities, with Temple + Library + Cathedral + University in each we should have 12 cpt per city => 360 cpt total, not counting the 1000-year doubling. So, something around 500-600 cpt by 1700 seems reasonable.
We are not likely to get a lot more than that: the problems will start coming when we run out of buildings to rush, which doesn't seem too far away...
EDIT: I agree that we should not squeeze cities around our core -and we haven't got many sensible places at this point. I'd go for as tight a placement as possible north-ish of Ashur.
We should also be wary not to settle too aggressively near the Zulu border, as that will make them declare war on us sooner or later.
SesnOfWthr
True Believer
It seems most of the rest of the game will be finding a delicate balance between two needs:
The need to get more culture and reach 80k
The need to have enough troops to dissuade declarations of war
Should be interesting trying to find the right balance.
EDIT: A question regarding Arathorn's post - it seems he is implying that we need access to both resources to upg from knights to cavs. But shouldn't we just need the salt since that is the only difference in resources between the two? I don't know why I bother to ask, Arathorn always seems to know what he's talking about....
The need to get more culture and reach 80k
The need to have enough troops to dissuade declarations of war
Should be interesting trying to find the right balance.
EDIT: A question regarding Arathorn's post - it seems he is implying that we need access to both resources to upg from knights to cavs. But shouldn't we just need the salt since that is the only difference in resources between the two? I don't know why I bother to ask, Arathorn always seems to know what he's talking about....
[/lurk]
Suggestion for the buys. Buy horses for 20 turns and build knights (where you don't have more culture to build). About 18 turns into the deal (with about 2 turns left), buy saltpeter and upgrade in that brief window when you have both horses and cavalry. You can then use the salt and your native iron to build cannons, which are also incredibly useful.
Good luck with the rest of this one.
[lurk]
Arathorn
Suggestion for the buys. Buy horses for 20 turns and build knights (where you don't have more culture to build). About 18 turns into the deal (with about 2 turns left), buy saltpeter and upgrade in that brief window when you have both horses and cavalry. You can then use the salt and your native iron to build cannons, which are also incredibly useful.
Good luck with the rest of this one.
[lurk]
Arathorn
microbe
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For discussion.
Aside from the spot in my turnlog, here are some spots we can fill in:
Red dots are highest priority. The settler can go to one of them now.
Yellow next, then blue? These will affect productivity in Ellipi, so we can delay a bit.
Again rushing order in new cities: library, temple, university, cathedral.
Every new city with the 4 improvements will get us 12cpt. 5 more cities would be 60cpt. With our existing cities finishing their remaining culture, we'll be close to 400cpt.
After all core cities completing culture, we can consider squeezing more (like in the east?)
Aside from the spot in my turnlog, here are some spots we can fill in:
Red dots are highest priority. The settler can go to one of them now.
Yellow next, then blue? These will affect productivity in Ellipi, so we can delay a bit.
Again rushing order in new cities: library, temple, university, cathedral.
Every new city with the 4 improvements will get us 12cpt. 5 more cities would be 60cpt. With our existing cities finishing their remaining culture, we'll be close to 400cpt.
After all core cities completing culture, we can consider squeezing more (like in the east?)
microbe
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Yeah, we haven't completed all our culture buildings. All cities have temples and libraries, but some don't have universities and cathedrals, which are more expensive to rush. Most of these cities are just corrupted. Some forests could be chopped to help them. Also probably we shouldn't be building aqueducts there..
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A few more game thoughts:
1) Get 2 rifles into Mari and Ebla. Build walls in Ebla. These are the worst cities to deal with the Vikings taking them.
2) We want two rifles per coastal city to discourage the next round from the Vikings. Rifles defenders shouldn't be used for the interior until are coast is safe. We can't afford to lose temples / libraries that are doubled. As an example - Shuruppak with a doubled temple and is defended by only a bowman!
3) I realize everyone is worried about more culture, but we must increase our cities building military. I would be shocked if we don't have a third Viking, or second Zulu war. We have multiple cities we NO defenders. Although it hasn't been proven scientifically, I feel that like empty cities encourage demands / wars.
4) I loaded the game and clicked to the next turn. We are gaining 339 culture / turn, and the Mongols are at 204 culture / turn. I agree we have a problem, and that is why I reluctantly added another 3 cities to build. A key thing with culture is we simply can't let the AI get any more wonders. While we desperately need more military, most of our cash will have to stay on buildings as opposed to badly needed pike to rifleman upgrades.
5) Micro suggested a rush order of temple, library, university and church. I want to add an exception. If the city is close to riot, then the order should be church, university. I would rush by the Zulu border above all. The odds look low, but
6) If we get too much military, we can always disband the junk units - bowman, regular pikes, etc for shields toward culture in the fringe towns.
7) I would pass on the Zulu workers for 2 luxuries. We give the Zulu to much for what we get back.
8) Our eastern area:
The red circles are CORE cities. The yellow dot is the only spot I can find that won't harm our core.
9) Our northern area:
The red circles are CORE cities. The blue and green dots are the last spots worth it. Add the grey X zone to the city list will leave core cities with less then 12 tiles to work.
10) This has already become more of an ICS game then I wanted. I really want to draw the line at those 3 cities. It was never my intention to win by ICS. The Zulu getting the Temple of Artemis really hurt, as they are the only potential cities to flip. I doubt we will get a single flip this game from the Zulu cities.
1) Get 2 rifles into Mari and Ebla. Build walls in Ebla. These are the worst cities to deal with the Vikings taking them.
2) We want two rifles per coastal city to discourage the next round from the Vikings. Rifles defenders shouldn't be used for the interior until are coast is safe. We can't afford to lose temples / libraries that are doubled. As an example - Shuruppak with a doubled temple and is defended by only a bowman!
3) I realize everyone is worried about more culture, but we must increase our cities building military. I would be shocked if we don't have a third Viking, or second Zulu war. We have multiple cities we NO defenders. Although it hasn't been proven scientifically, I feel that like empty cities encourage demands / wars.
4) I loaded the game and clicked to the next turn. We are gaining 339 culture / turn, and the Mongols are at 204 culture / turn. I agree we have a problem, and that is why I reluctantly added another 3 cities to build. A key thing with culture is we simply can't let the AI get any more wonders. While we desperately need more military, most of our cash will have to stay on buildings as opposed to badly needed pike to rifleman upgrades.
5) Micro suggested a rush order of temple, library, university and church. I want to add an exception. If the city is close to riot, then the order should be church, university. I would rush by the Zulu border above all. The odds look low, but
6) If we get too much military, we can always disband the junk units - bowman, regular pikes, etc for shields toward culture in the fringe towns.
7) I would pass on the Zulu workers for 2 luxuries. We give the Zulu to much for what we get back.
8) Our eastern area:
The red circles are CORE cities. The yellow dot is the only spot I can find that won't harm our core.
9) Our northern area:
The red circles are CORE cities. The blue and green dots are the last spots worth it. Add the grey X zone to the city list will leave core cities with less then 12 tiles to work.
10) This has already become more of an ICS game then I wanted. I really want to draw the line at those 3 cities. It was never my intention to win by ICS. The Zulu getting the Temple of Artemis really hurt, as they are the only potential cities to flip. I doubt we will get a single flip this game from the Zulu cities.
SesnOfWthr
True Believer
Pre turn Mongols culture: 10295 Ours: 20960. Barely double.
Cycle last couple inland troops to the coast.
1280 ad (1) Were not quite making enough money to rush a church every turn.
1285 ad (2) Im hedging on the horses deal until a couple core builds finish up.
1290 ad (3) A Viking galleon sails by to the south.
1295 ad (4) Mari and Ebla both get their second rifles. New Ellipi founded north of Zariqum.
1300 ad (5) We get hit with what I believe is our first pollution.
1305 ad (6) Culture gain last turn: Us 362 cpt Mongols 207
1310 ad (7) Trade Mongols ivory, dyes, WM and 336g for horses. Mongols also pass 50% of our total culture.
1315 ad (8) Not a whole lot.
1320 ad (9) Yet a couple more rush builds.
1325 ad (10) Vikings start US. Rush a final church up north.
I was able to rush 8-10 buildings all cultural with an aqueduct exception. Most of these nuilds were in the northern cities. I was also able to upgrade 4 or 5 pikes. Currently making 328 gpt.
Our culture numbers now:
Us 24555 total, 380 cpt.
Mongols 12356 total, 207 cpt. We are catching up to their cpt.
>>>SAVE<<<
Cycle last couple inland troops to the coast.
1280 ad (1) Were not quite making enough money to rush a church every turn.
1285 ad (2) Im hedging on the horses deal until a couple core builds finish up.
1290 ad (3) A Viking galleon sails by to the south.
1295 ad (4) Mari and Ebla both get their second rifles. New Ellipi founded north of Zariqum.
1300 ad (5) We get hit with what I believe is our first pollution.
1305 ad (6) Culture gain last turn: Us 362 cpt Mongols 207
1310 ad (7) Trade Mongols ivory, dyes, WM and 336g for horses. Mongols also pass 50% of our total culture.
1315 ad (8) Not a whole lot.
1320 ad (9) Yet a couple more rush builds.
1325 ad (10) Vikings start US. Rush a final church up north.
I was able to rush 8-10 buildings all cultural with an aqueduct exception. Most of these nuilds were in the northern cities. I was also able to upgrade 4 or 5 pikes. Currently making 328 gpt.
Our culture numbers now:
Us 24555 total, 380 cpt.
Mongols 12356 total, 207 cpt. We are catching up to their cpt.
>>>SAVE<<<
microbe
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Nice job! We gained almost 50cpt in 10 turns.
Pollution? I guess that's from our shakespear city?
We can research Industrialization in 6 turns. We are able to build ToE in 24 turns with our prebuild. I suggest we research Medicine after that as AI is extremely slow at it, then we can trade it to AI to get Electricity (and hopefully also RP) then go for Sci Method.
Pollution? I guess that's from our shakespear city?
We can research Industrialization in 6 turns. We are able to build ToE in 24 turns with our prebuild. I suggest we research Medicine after that as AI is extremely slow at it, then we can trade it to AI to get Electricity (and hopefully also RP) then go for Sci Method.
SesnOfWthr
True Believer
Yeah, I guess I could have been more specific about the pollution. It was on an ivory outside Nineveh(?).
Perhaps more important than how many cpt we gained is the fact that the mongols only gained 3 cpt.
From what I understood, the prebuild was meant for the US?
Perhaps more important than how many cpt we gained is the fact that the mongols only gained 3 cpt.
From what I understood, the prebuild was meant for the US?
SesnOfWthr
True Believer
First let me state that I agree with you, as I generally don't care much about US, but always persue ToE fully.
LK implied he wanted US for the culture it would garner, although as long as Mongols don't get it, it shouldn't harm us. The other thing is the fact that the ToE invariably would speed tech up for everyone, as they would demand the techs from us, and we would have no choice but to cave.
LK implied he wanted US for the culture it would garner, although as long as Mongols don't get it, it shouldn't harm us. The other thing is the fact that the ToE invariably would speed tech up for everyone, as they would demand the techs from us, and we would have no choice but to cave.
