LK95 - Raze Three to Dominate the World V2, mystery civ

[microbe]

I still think we need to attack Japan. They have been using up their troops and won't send in a huge initial force. We have had 20 turns to build forces since my turn.

But we were not fully on military. We still have essential buildings to finish, and do not have enough units to do much more than razing one or two towns.

My opinion is that in this game we can't raze one or two here and there and then sign peace immediately, as AI would resettle. We need to keep the war going once we start, and that's where Monarchy shines. We definitely are not in that position yet.

On the other hand, many AIs are in democracy. Dragging them into war is something we should try to do. So, we probably should wait for the current deal to end and MA them against someone we want to fight.

 

[Greebley]

The problem as I see it is that we spend our time building "essential" buildings game after game - some we win but some we lose because of a run away civ. I would like to try a militaristic approach to this problem. I feel it is the solution. We let some civ like Japan establish itself and build up after the initial war and then need many times as many troops to win.

If we delay some infra and use military and alliances, we can weaken the leading AI, gain more cities and catch up in the infra later. I would at least like to try this one game and see how it goes rather than playing the same way each game.

I am not sure this will stop some of the losses we have recently gotten, but I have a strong suspicion that it would be effective or at least give us more time to win. This is especially true in a game where our number of towns is limited because we remain at peace.

We chose Monarchy and can afford a 20 year war with Japan. I would have liked to have started the war already with Alliances. With 2-3 civs on our side we could really hurt Japan.

If the AI's were evenly balanced I would be fine with a peaceful game. An unbalanced game AI-wise requires war IMO. A peaceful game has advantages - easier to catch up in tech, faster infra to grow, etc. This doesn't help if Japan wins before we are ready to take them out as happened with Persia in the previous game.

 

[microbe]

There is no runaway AI in this game. There are 3 advanced ones barely made into IA I believe (not seen riflemen from China yet). Japan is biggest but is not the first tier, so I'm not worried at all.

I understand your desire to try military approach, and I agree to some degree. CIV has been such a game that human players dominate after getting infantry and artillery, and that's simply THE best strategy. It's a bit boring, so if we want to try something different, I'm all for it, although that might not be the best way to do it.

 

[LKendter]

Well this is the problem with fighting Japan right now.
Look at the AI units circled in white, and the garbage we have defending in red.

 

[microbe]

In fact, that' pretty much all Japanese offensive force that I've seen, so it's certainly not that much.

 

[LKendter]

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LK95-640AD.zip


550 AD
No war will happen during my turns. We are currently playing depletion roulette and have no iron on my shift. I won't start a war when I have no ability to replace losses. I intended to keep the flow of Musketeers going to get decent city defense.

With how weak our island defense is war CAN'T happen when iron is being shipped. Dijon could easily fall with one warrior for defense.


570 AD
The galley by the Celts serves no purpose at this time. I disband it, as it will take to long to get home.
(IT) Mao gets $20 and tm.
China builds Newton's in Beijing.


590 AD
I have enough cash for an embassy. I establish one with the Byzantines. The have iron (temporarily), saltpeter and horses. The best defender is still a musket. They currently have 4 luxuries.


610 AD
I build an embassy with Germany. They have horses and iron, but NO saltpeter. At some point they bought it as it looks like some muskets are defending. They have 3 luxuries.


630 AD
(IT) Nationalism is official out there as Japan and the Byzantines sign an MPP.

Japan immediately follows with the below.
They




==========================


Summary:
NOTHING is moved for 640 AD. We have a very ugly situation on our hands. We need to make a team decision to either attempt to survive 5 turns for peace, or commit to a 20-turn war and waste our GA on troops. I prefer the ASAP war and to complete the buildings.

We can't get an alliance against Japan, but this would be just as effective from the Byzantine. I didn't haggle, but I am surprised how cheap it is.




Signed up:
LKendter
Greebley (currently playing)
Meldor (on deck)
Arathorn
Microbe

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
Don't forget the variant rules in the first post.

Leftover raze credit from previous player: 0
New razes from current player: 0
New raze credit current: 0

 

[LKendter]

Thank god we only have one turn left of the iron deal, or it would be even worse.
However, note was has already landing on iron island.
All those ships are Japanese!

I was already planning on reinforcing the island and that is why the galley under construction. However, at this point it will have to be suicide galley loading one turn, and dropping on the mountain the next turn.

 

[Bezhukov]

Lurker comment: looks like Fukushima really fukushimed you guys over. AI doesn't like to leave its orphans behind.

 

[Arathorn]

I was in favor of war 15-20 turns ago. Had I played, I probably would have started war with Japan on my turns. We need to be slowing down the leader. We can ally with Byzantines and quite possibly China. Beat on them. There's no time like the present. We're in a no WW government and I'll pick the human against any single AI any day of the week -- raze 6-9 cities or so and see what happens. Use our GA on military and bonk some heads. Infra is of limited value at this point, IMO. Heck, a couple longbows or MDI provides as much happiness as a colosseum, is cheaper, and generally costs less. Plus, it has multiple uses...why build buildings?

We can switch over a number of builds to military and go start bonking some heads. My main question is, have we built enough trebuchets (30?) to keep our casualties to near 0? If not, why not? That needs to be a big build, too.

My vote -- ally and fight for ~20 turns and then immediately declare war on China once our 20 turns vs. Japan are done. If China bails early or our MPP situation changes, maybe change earlier, but definitely start fighting Japan ASAP, preferably even earlier than we did.

Arathorn

 

[Greebley]

I agree on the alliance. We will need it.

We have spent the entire game on Infra. We can afford dedicating our GA to troops.

Well it looks like I got the war I wanted, though not exactly in the way I wanted it. Should be fun.

I got it.

 

[LKendter]

We have spent the entire game on Infra. We can afford dedicating our GA to troops.

We have already built a decent military. I certainly would NOT claim the entire game was on buildings.

We actually are still way short on buildings. We have almost zero churches that are badly needed for happiness. Our luxury tax is way to high. We should be able to get banking soon for another building to complete.


Let's wait for comments from the remaining 2 players.


This will be the last time I run this particular variant. I am burned out on games where people feel we must start wars quickly and get stuck on military actions. This game has frustrated me to no end with the military and fight now attitude it generated.

 

[Greebley]

I must admit I have been frustrated in the other direction. That we won't consider an early military game.

It is a rough variant. As stated I feel it calls for early Military action. Probably best if we let it rest for a while.

In any case I will wait to hear from others.

Out of curiosity did you sign the MPP? If so aren't we committed to the 20 turns?

 

[LKendter]

Out of curiosity did you sign the MPP? If so aren't we committed to the 20 turns?

NO - I did NOT sign the MPP. I just wanted to show the option is available. It looks like I build the embassy just in time.

 

[LKendter]

I must admit I have been frustrated in the other direction. That we won't consider an early military game.

This is exactly why this variant won't be replayed, along with defiance, and several other options.

I find early wars the most frustrating in civ.

 

[microbe]

If we do not have much danger in our core, I would go for war and ally with China.

 

[LKendter]

If we do not have much danger in our core, I would go for war and ally with China.

We have SEVERAL city with just one tile that we control. There are several spots where Japan can cross with multiple Samurai and attack that turn.

 

[LKendter]

I think this is a very good time to reprint the rules.
We *WILL* lose at least one city barring RnG insanity. We really need to watch if we have the right to build anything.

Raze Three to Dominate the World, version 2.
This game is a normal game until we can't add another city to the empire during the expansion phase. Any new city must connect to the empire, and it must claim at least 12 new tiles.

After the expansion phase is over, the variant conditions are active. After we raze 3 cities, then we have the credit to acquire another one. That additional city can be through any method including from a peace treaty. The razed city credits extend between wars. We may not exceed this count for even a millisecond.

The right to acquire a city doesn't expire. If we have razed 6 cities, and haven't added anymore we can acquire 2 more.

If we lose a city the razed count goes back to zero and we forfeit the right to acquire 1 city. If we had the right to acquire 3 cities, the new count would be 2.

If a city is abandoned we don't add 1 to the right to acquire cities. The only way we can abandon and replace a city is if we already have the right to acquire 1 city.

 

[Bezhukov]

Lurker comment: Just my two cents, but like everything in Civ, I think the build vs. war question actually could come down to early game development strategies. I.E. better early game development allows more flexibility later. I learned a lot from this thread:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=105345&page=2&pp=20

Was surprised how tight they started. Once I adopted this approach, it became clear that it lets you work less corruptible tiles earlier than the alternative, eventually adding up in a pronounced fashion. This game started out especially spread out. I know this is due somewhat to the variant, but still something to think about.

 

[Greebley]

It looks like we are going to be able to get an MPP with Byzantines and ally China and Egypt in vs Japan. Do we want the MPP?

I am not expecting hordes of Samuri as they have been at war. This is especially true with alliances. Still I am planning to switching over to Military builds. I feel this will be necessary. We need to keep our towns. Research will also suffer for 5-10 turns to guarantee the safety of our towns.

I am guessing the next player will probably have the option to go on the offensive. Razing several towns would help us replace any town that is lost.

Keeping the island town depends on a reg warrior defending vs a Musket. It will probably fall as Lee states. My hope is to limit our Casualites to just that loss. Whether we can do that remains to be seen.

My primary reason for the Alliances is that losing a city is costly for us and I want to keep them. Allies will help with this. Also 20 turns of war does not bother me. We can get in Razes and make up for any losses we incur at the beginning.

-------------------

My current plan would therefore be to go for the Alliances and risk the MPP. Science would be off until I feel we are safe (for upgrading troops). Builds would concentrate on military.

I will play tomorrow in case we want to discuss some more. It seems fairly straightforward to me though.

 

[LKendter]

It looks like we are going to be able to get an MPP with Byzantines and ally China and Egypt in vs. Japan. Do we want the MPP?

The Byzantines WON'T sign an alliance due to the MPP. All total GPT was NO for an alliance. The Byzantines would be our ultimate partner as the draw the Japanese to the other side of the world. China still brings Japan toward us. The best allies bring the AI as far away as possible.

Keeping the island town depends on a reg warrior defending vs. a Musket.

There is a Samurai under that musket. The city is lost. The danger is also losing the iron city.