LK95 - Raze Three to Dominate the World V2, mystery civ

Greebley said:
I would like to get rep parts first. We desperately need a better defensive unit than 4.
Actually, the French UU is defense 5 with light bombard. However, I still agree we need a better defender.


Greebley said:
Also note that if we get Rep Parts first we could try trading it for Nationalism.
I would be surprised. The only times I got Nationalism for one tech is a monopoly tech.
 
On further thought, I agree we won't be able to trade for Nationalism.

I want Rep Parts for the Military might it gives us and double speed workers. The problem is that we could end up at war with the wrong civ.

If we do go for Nationalism, I would say science at 90 or 100 and try to suplement the gpt lost every turn with cash from city steals.

I looked more into the amount of cash you get from taking a city. I set up a simple example with a town, city, and Metropolis


Each city is given a value of:
2 if it is a Town
3 if it is a City
4 if it is a Metropolis

You then sum the above values for all cities in the empire:
Total = 2 * <number of town> + 3 * < number of cities> + 4 * < number of Metropolis>

Gold = <the amount of gold the AI has>

The amount of gold I got in the simple example was
For a town: 2 * Gold * .75 / Total
For a city: 3 * Gold * .75 / Total
For a Metropolis: 4 * Gold * .75 / Total

The last city of course is all the gold rather than the above formula.

So my test case was to give the AI 50400 gold with the town(size 1), city(size 7), Metrop(size 13)

Taking the town I got 8400 gold
Taking the City I got 12600 gold
Taking the Metropolis I got 16800 gold

This is probably a good aproximation of how much gold you get. To see if it is exact you would want to do the calculation in the game. There may be things that change it beyond town size.
 
Does size 7 vs size 12 matter. I would be curious what happens with size 1, 12, 13. If you get the exact same results than pop doesn't come into play.
 
I had a chance to try this and I got the same result: Size 7 and Size 12 give the same gold.

[Edit: I grabbed a save from the modern era. The civ had 381 gold, 7 cities, and 3 Metropolis.

Expected gold would be 34.6 but I got 38 gold so there probably is another smaller factor. That means the above should only be treated as an estimation and not an exact amount. The city I tried did have a wonder. I wonder if that added to the value.

The smaller factor is culture. The relationship was non-obvious though.
Wonders don't themselves make a difference.
 
(0) 1250 - Looking around. Things look reasonably OK. We are pretty thin on defensive troops. And I'm not convinced rails at the front and protecting them is as valuable as getting our core improved, now that we have a military railnet up to our outlying cities.

(I) Very nice to see Japs and Egyptians fighting. They all lose troops. We don't lose any, although we have some close calls. Another landing on "Iron Works Island", but I think I can handle a lone infantry there with troops on hand.

(1) 1255 - Redline lots of enemy troops. Lose about a 1:1 ratio trying to take out rifles, infantry, and crusaders (all with 1 hp) with vet/elite cavalry.

(I) More Japanese/Egyptian casualties, but no French ones. That's good.

(2) 1260 - Maneveur.

(I) Fortified musketeer on mountain with cannon defensive bombard vs. attacking infantry? We lose, doing no damage. And more Egyptian ships approach IW Island. Egyptians also found Buto by our artillery stack, after waffling on its location for a couple turns.

(3) 1265 - "Only" takes 21 cannon shots to redline the single defender (infantry) of Buto. Raze Buto for 371 gold. Not bad pocket change, but it slows our advance in the south. Armies in the north are finally healed enough to move again.

(I) China/Byzantines ally vs. Egypt. Good news. Fortified musketeers on hills with defensive bombard go 1-2 vs. attacking infantry and one on flatlands wins without a scratch. Wild. And now 8 Egyptian ships are by IW island. WHEE!!!

(4) 1270 - At Asyut in the north, first cav army nearly redlines to take out an infantry and I decide to rest before going at it again. Better safe than stupid.

(I) More Japanese/Egyptian fighting. An insane number of infantry attack our artillery stack, taking out two of the three defending musketeers on a mountain. I think I killed 11 attackers, though. Artillery stack is in a slightly odd place to reinforce, though. Might get tricky. Only 3 infantry drop off on IW island, but I'm not sure how I'll take of them. We're short on troops there.

And Egypt captures Smolensk from the Japanese.

(5) 1275 - Asyut gets hit by the first army, which kills the first infantry, losing one hp, and then drops to very few hps to kill the second infantry. Cavalry up there attacks, wins, spawns a MGL, and then I have a heinous choice to make. Asyut is the home to Adam Smith's Trading Company. We were at one credit, plus Buto is two, and Asyut is three. I can keep it. It's got insane borders, but it's only size 3, and once we get some of our culture there, there wouldn't be any overlap. OTOH, it's been drafted at least once, as the last infantry was a conscript (which is why the elite attacked).

Dang. This is tough. What's Smith's worth to us? Free stuff in a lot of cities. We can probably make the flip chance zero or very close to it fairly easily. I think it has to be done. Wish I'd done my tech stuff earlier, but... Keep the city.

It comes complete with marketplace, courthouse, factory, and police station. Three resistors, of course. The army will guard it one turn and then the horde of suppressers will arrive. A check of F8 yields a 5:1 cultural advantage to Egypt, 44698 to 8197. And the Byzantines have pressure, too, until its border expands. Risky move, to be sure. I hope it pays off. Gpt up to 120, though.

IW island cannons stink up the place, so the infantry will get to pillage and maybe move on or attack, but an attack will never get a city.

Safe steal from China nets Replaceable Parts. But Replaceable Parts, Iron, Silks, Gems, and Dyes gets "I doubt they would accept this." It would take 60 gpt on top of all that to get Nationalism. How ridiculous is that??? I wonder if Germany has it partway researched. Next turn, I'll try to get Nationalism out of Japan with RP. They lack Electricity, so I *KNOW* they don't have RP.

SHEESH! I'm glad I kept Asyut. With all the jungle we cut down...our only source of Rubber is under Asyut. Boy, do I *REALLY* want to keep that now. Japan lacks Rubber, as do the meaningless Celts, but everybody else has a source. Asyut will be critical to our success now.

BTW, Egypt will pay 1300 gold for peace. I don't think it's worth it, but we might want to consider making a short peace with Egypt and shortening our front and building up a bit by taking out China. They're also pretty technically advanced and would make a fine target.

(I) Japan dies and dies and dies to Egypt, but finally kills a bit. We kill 3 infantry for the loss of a musketeer. A few infantry builds are started.

(6) 1280 - I gotta take out one infantry on flatlands without artillery support to free up some lines to the front. First 3 cav all die, promoting it to elite. No damage done. No retreating. Sigh. 4th one kills it without a scratch. All you gotta do is complain, I guess.

I stop our 198 gpt+Egypt embargo deal with China. He'd do the embargo for free, but he's already at war with Cleo and I want the opportunity to war with him if/when we decide we need/want to, so I just let it lapse.

I get Ironclads + 6 gpt + 18 gold + WM from Japan for Electricity. I want to see what RP is worth to him. Well, RP + dyes + silks + gems is insulting for Nationalism. What a joke.

On IW island, the two surviving infantry are redlined. First cav dies, second one wins, eventually. And they're on flatlands. Much glue this turn. On the plus side, we're up to 307 gpt right now. Actually....

I really want Nationalism. I want spies and I can still get value from RP out of Japan now. RP + iron + dyes + gems + 60 gpt to Germany for Nationalism and 12 gold. It hurts, but.... Oh, but...heck, Japan doesn't have Communism, Espionage, or anything useful for RP. Burnt again. At least we got value from our iron, but....

I should've trade with Japan first. Germany has things beyond Nationalism. Bother.

Re-MM cities to take advantage of new specialists. And I draft from a couple cities with full food boxes that can handle the happiness penalty (Paris, Rouen, Toulouse). These guys are earmarked as MP or flip preventers, but more troops are quite valuable right now, for whatever purpose. Darn road to Asyut is still semi-clogged, though.

(I)Japan/Celts make peace. So what? Japan continues to make glue. Cleo wants straight-up peace. I decline, of course. We get the Pentagon message. I'd like to build it, but I'm not sure where. Paris is on MA now, having built a Coal Plant, too. Asyut resistance ends. Temple will be rushed.

(7) 1285 - Raze Edfu in the north, between Strasbourg and Asyut. Another 331 gold. Used an army. Asyut gets its temple rushed.

(I) Germany/China ally vs. Celts. Germany drops a few cities that are really going to mess up our communication lines. I wonder if we could convince Egypt to raze them for us (by allying with Germany vs. Egypt).

What happened to 8? I dunno. I got off in years somewhere.

(9) 1295 - 13 hp cav army dies to 2 hp infantry in Smolensk. Ummm....well, that sucks. Now what?

Front is getting ugly. Egypt rolls a flak cannon into view. They will be bombing us from the sky soon. A couple more cities and then I think it might well be time to turn on China. Would cost 480 gold to get Germany to declare on Cleo. If we keep going at Cleo (might be wise since she's still the leader), I would definitely do this, just to let Egypt raze some annoying German cities for us.

(10) 1300 - Well, we're in a position to probably raze Smolensk and Hierancompolis next turn. Asyut's borders should expand and it'll become safer for our people to live there. It's already been starved to one Egyptian.

Current credit: 1 raze

Arathorn
 
Arathorn said:
Asyut is the home to Adam Smith's Trading Company. We were at one credit, plus Buto is two, and Asyut is three.

LKendter said:
After we raze 3 cities, then we have the credit to acquire another one.

A replay is required. Note the key word of *after*. We acquired another city after only 2 razes. I can't count the "razing" of Asyut as the right to capture Asyut.
 
:bump:

Due to lack of reaction to the replay request and rules violation.
 
I don't like replaying if we can avoid it. For example, I would rather penalize ourselves. Easy to do in this game. -3 or -6 razes would work (putting us at -2 raze count or -5 raze count). Just a suggestion. I will go with the replay if that is what Lee wants.
 
We never lost a city, so I feel it is OK to swap to the 3 version of the rules. This will greatly simplify the razed city count.



Raze Three to Dominate the World, version 3.
This game is a normal game until we can't add another city to the empire during the expansion phase. Any new city must connect to the empire, and it must claim at least 12 new tiles.

After the expansion phase is over, the variant conditions are active. After we raze 3 cities, then we have the credit to acquire another one. That additional city can be through any method including from a peace treaty. The razed city credits extend between wars. We may not exceed this count for even a millisecond.

The right to acquire a city doesn't expire. If we have razed 6 cities, and haven't added anymore we can acquire 2 more.

If we lose a city the razed count goes down by 3. It is possible for the count to be negative.

If a city is abandoned we don't add 1 to the right to acquire cities. The only way we can abandon and replace a city is if we already have the right to acquire 1 city.
 
I don't like replaying if we can avoid it. For example, I would rather penalize ourselves. Easy to do in this game. -3 or -6 razes would work (putting us at -2 raze count or -5 raze count). Just a suggestion. I will go with the replay if that is what Lee wants.
Not a perfect solution, but we do pay a penalty for violating the variant rules. If it happens again the penalty will be more severe.


Signed up:
LKendter (on deck)
Greebley
Meldor (I suspect still on flu skip)
Arathorn
Microbe (currently playing)

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
Don't forget the variant rules in the first post.


Raze credit at the start of the turn: +1
Razes from current player: Buto, Edfu +2
Lost cities / penalty from the current player: -3 (Illegal capture of Asyut)
Raze credit spent: capture Asyut -3
Raze credit at the end of the turn: -3 (Yes, we now need six razes before the next city)
 
I interpreted that rule quite differently. Actually, I think we have different meanings of raze/capture. To me, once the defenses are destroyed and the player is deciding what to do with the city, that's when the original city has lost control, so it's been "destroyed". At that point, whether the player chooses to raze or capture, the count has been fulfilled. That distinction was not at all clear to me.

I have no intermediate saves. I rarely save mid-SG turns when I can do them in one sitting. It would involve a full 10-turn replay. With the extra knowledge available, I'm sure I (or anyone else on the team) could make significantly more progress tech-wise and military-wise in the same 10 turns. I think replay is a bad option.

As for -3 vs. -6 or what the penalty should be....that's up to Lee. His game, his rules, his decision. How about abandoning Asyut (equivalent to -3) and removing any partial raze credits (1) from our pool? Just an alternate possibility.

Sorry for the misunderstanding,
Arathorn
 
lurker's comment: "After we raze 3 cities, then we have the credit to acquire another one."

Not that my opinion matters but doesn't the sentence mean that exact moment "after" taking a city you get the credit to acquire another one?
 
Arathorn said:
I interpreted that rule quite differently. Actually, I think we have different meanings of raze/capture. To me, once the defenses are destroyed and the player is deciding what to do with the city, that's when the original city has lost control, so it's been "destroyed". At that point, whether the player chooses to raze or capture, the count has been fulfilled.
That is the whole key of the problem. I don't consider the city razed until rubble is on the spot.

Your interpretation opens a real odd situation of we can raze 2 and capture 1 or raze 3 and build 1.


Arathorn said:
II have no intermediate saves. I rarely save mid-SG turns when I can do them in one sitting. It would involve a full 10-turn replay. With the extra knowledge available, I'm sure I (or anyone else on the team) could make significantly more progress tech-wise and military-wise in the same 10 turns. I think replay is a bad option.

It sounds like I didn't make myself clear in the last post. Microbe is to play with us taking a -3 penalty for the mistake.
 
Whomp said:
lurker's comment: "After we raze 3 cities, then we have the credit to acquire another one."

Not that my opinion matters but doesn't the sentence mean that exact moment "after" taking a city you get the credit to acquire another one?

It said "raze", not "take/capture". If you "take" a city, you didn't "raze", so it doesn't count as a credit.

I got it by the way.
 
lurker's comment: Gotcha. My bad.
 
preturn: Egypt is resourceless, cool.

IBT Byzantines demand TM+38g, sure thing. Celts and China make peace. Germany kicks us out.

(1)1305AD: our army redlines but we kill 3 infantry and a flak, losing one elite cavalry and raze Smolensk for 322g.

Cannons redline 1 infantry and 2 flaks and we raze Hieraconpolis and gain 2 workers+333g.

I sign RoP with Germany. It turns annoyed.

(2)1310AD: Japan has Espionage. I exchange RP with it and switch Military Acadamy to IA due next turn.

(3)1315AD: plant spy on Egypt, and steal Sci Meth from Egypt. The reason is I want to steal Atomic Theory next.

Kill a flak and a crusader.

IBT Byz and Celts make peace.

(4)1320AD: Japan's incense deal expired and I renew by Sci Method.

(5)1325AD: Raze Lisht and gain 336g.

(6)1330AD:

IBT Egypt founds a town next to our SoD. :smoke:

(7)1335AD: Raze Pithom and get 310g. Egypt has re-connected its rubber.

I fail to steal from Egypt, but our spy survives.

IBT two new Egyptian settler pairs appear.

(8)1340AD: we build Military Acadamy.

(9)1345AD: Egypt lands two infantry to the island. Propaganda hits Marseilles and causes 20% citizens to be confused.

(10)1350AD: raze Yaroslavl' with the Great Lighthouse.

I establish embassy with China. It's weak with 31 riflemen and 33 guerilla.

Note:

There are two injured infantry on the island, stepping on our iron.

We have two stack of cannons each guarded by a cav army. One stack is next to two Egyptian settlers. For some reason it has not founded any city. Do not bombard the flak/rifle on the settlers, as that might cause Egypt not to found the town there.

We should consider doing some damage to China? It's weak and has good land.

We should have gold for another steal in a couple of turns.

Our next city should found on some luxury. How about 3 tiles SE to Asyut to claim the spices?

Also, after Asyut expands we might just take Byzantine's only iron, and sell back to her. It'll take 59 turns, however.
 
LK95-1350AD.jpg
 
There are two injured infantry on the island, stepping on our iron.
How did this happen? There should always be a unit occupying that tile. A pillage on that tile would really hurt us.

Signed up:
LKendter (currently playing)
Greebley (on deck)
Meldor
Arathorn
Microbe

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
Don't forget the variant rules in the first post.


Raze credit at the start of the turn: -3
Razes from current player: Smolensk, Hieraconpolis, Lisht, Pithom, and Yaroslavl'. +5
Lost cities / penalty from the current player: 0
Raze credit spent: 0
Raze credit at the end of the turn: +2
 
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