LN1 - "Great works are performed, not by strength, but by perseverance."

Nice turnset. :)
I will try it tomorrow or today evening. I think I am going to harass Joao to stop him and then pummel him when he's weakened enough... Slim chance we will kill Portugal now.
I have to play ten turns, right?

Winth, I think we can definitely eliminate Portugal. Joao has no metal, so we should only be facing archers. It will cost a couple axemen per archer to take Lisbon (we should probably have 2.5 per defending archer to be safe), which is not on a hill. But it gives us another first-rate site.

Oporto will be tougher, since it is on a hill. But it only has 20% culture, so it is possible. We have to keep that copper unconnected, and when our axe pair passes by on the way to Lisbon it should pillage the pigs to reduce his food/whipping capability.

The payoff in good land to settle will more than make up for the time/hammers spent building axes now.

Alphabet is definatly high on the priority list, it is also one of the high priorities of a GS... But it is a cheap tech... so I would rather not bulb it.

IW is a high AI priority, so we cen probably trade for that with Alphabet.

We need to see if any of the AIs know each other. I guess SB and Joao will not, since we only saw SB across the water. If the AIs do not know anyone else, they won't trade techs.

Sure we can do binary research... "best practice" research is to stop research at 0% untill you can research the whole tech at 100%... but that is a bit much I think...

I normally stick to binary research until my total commerce is at least 50/turn. At that point losing one to rounding is small, and it is worth it to keep a closer eye on your true sustainable rate.
 
Winth, I think we can definitely eliminate Portugal. Joao has no metal, so we should only be facing archers.

If you check out my turnset, Jao is #1 in power. What's the deal with that? It's not the great wall. Maybe he has walls in his cities? Maybe... he popped a hut for IW? Or could it just be sheer archers?
 
If you check out my turnset, Jao is #1 in power. What's the deal with that? It's not the great wall. Maybe he has walls in his cities? Maybe... he popped a hut for IW? Or could it just be sheer archers?

There is a chance that the bugger has IW somehow... allready... supposedly if he has good commerce he can tech like crazy :(

If he has IW and Iron some place close we could very well be in big trouble!

All the more reason to stike fast!

I agree Joao probably has Iron Working -- it is not really that expensive. The beakers we have put into Writing and (part of) Math is more than the cost of IW.

My reading of the power ratings:

We are at 36000 (as per the demo screen), which matches exactly with what we have:

Population:
Washington 5
New York 2

1000 per 2 pop points = 3000 points

Tech:
Hunting, Mining, Animal Husbandry (2000 each)
Wheel (4000)
Archery (6000)
Bronze Working (8000)

24000 points

Improvements:
1 barracks for 3000 points

Units:
1 axe (3000 each)
3 warriors (1000 each)

6000 points

Grand Total: 36000 (matches demo screen)

Here is my reading of Joao:

Population:
Lisbon 4+
Oporto 3+
Guimaraes 1+

1000 per 2 pop = 4000 points (maybe up to 6000?)

Tech:
Mining, Animal Husbandry (2000 each), maybe Sailing, Hunting?
Wheel (4000)
Archery (6000)
Bronze Working (8000)
Possibly Iron Working, Horseback Riding (10000 each)

22000 certain, possibly another 24000

Improvements:
1 barracks (visible in Lisbon) for 3000 points

Units:
5+ archers (2000 each)
? warriors (1000 each)

10000 points, possibly 5000 more (2 more archers and a warrior?)

Grand Total: 39000 certain, need 22000 more for the 61000 shown for #1 on demo screen (if Joao is number 1, although 61000 looks approximately correct from the power graph of us vs Joao)

Iron Working (10000)
Sailing, Hunting (2000 each)
Archers (4 more)

There could be some variance -- one less archer but more pop, no archers but instead a couple iron-based axes, maybe walls in Lisbon in place of one archer, etc.

Most likely Joao has 8 or 9 units for his 3 cities. He most likely has Iron Working, and may come up with axes any time. Our pillaging party of 2 axes needs to head for Portugese territory as quickly as we can get that second axe out. We need to find Guimaraes, and look for (and destroy!) any mines. Hover the mouse on any we find to check the tile yield -- I believe you can see the actual yield, even if we don't have Iron Working tech. (I know this works for spotting oil tiles (+1 hammer) even before you get SciMeth.)

Additional notes: HC and Joao know one another, and have open borders. We should open borders with SB and HC ASAP. SB does not know either HC or Joao.

We should spend a couple turns at 0% research, then back to 100%. The rounding error is taking 1/18 (over 5%) of our total commerce output. We might even want to spend a couple extra turns filling the treasury -- we are past the initial grace period for no random events, and may need some money to fend off bad effects.

Longer term, there is some nice land buried in the jungle. Multiple spice tiles, sugar tiles, bananna. South of the jungle is some pretty nice land, too, but that's a long ways off yet. And if HC is down there, he will almost certainly grab it long before we get there.
 
Good analysis Haph. I suggest we use the "visible tile yields" button to find joao's iron (if he has it). Needless to say we need to get a pillaging party out asap.

I agree about the land south of us, but it will require quite a time to become financially solvent enough to expand over all of it. But, it will be useful to have all that grass for a SE.

Lisbon would probably be a great site for another city, I mean starting positions are usually awesome city spots.
 
Sorry for being late. Easter matters and such.

Played 15 turns.

I start... by looking around. Joao II is so close. So close and we are at war with him... And we are building a Library in New York.

I channeled my inner Civ2 Military Advisor ("NONSENSE SIRE! WE MUST BUILD BARRACKS, ELSE WHERE OUR SOLDIERS WILL REST THEIR MIGHTY LANCES!!!!") and temporarily go Axemen. I feel that if we go all ways possible (growing our cities and building our armies when we are going to eliminate Portuguese) - we will achieve none. So I delay our development and whipped an Axeman in New York. We just don't have enough cities.
I apologise if that isn't within the intents of the team, but, after all, we are learning from our mistakes and such.

So this turnset from mine has a following goal - get 8-10 Axemen ready to rumble! :goodjob:

Turn 60: Press next turn.
61: Whip a nearly completed Axeman. The overflow goes into the next Axeman.
62: One turn to another Axeman, second Axeman (without barracks) whipped in New York (1 pop)
63: Both axemen produced, start on another Axeman in both cities.
64: Stonehenge BIDL. Looks like a big advantage to our Civ flushed down the drain. Oh well, no time to go for it already.

INTERMISSION

A brief pause in the game. I go to the lavatory, go shopping and have buttered scones for tea.

/INTERMISSION

65: I chop down trees, I skip and jump, I finish another Axeman. Note I didn't use those trees that were labeled as prechopped. We may need them for a more emergency situation. Besides, it kinda synergies us:

civ4screenshot0066hj0.jpg


Post Civil Service, we can spare our forests on the west for a better times, and we can still irrigate from the east. Besides, this tiny river is covered by hills - I don't know if we will be able to irritate from it!

66:
Another forest chopped and we produce another Axeman. Another due in New York :whipped:, another in Washington (labeled forest).

67:

The door opened violently and a little something without a hat rushed into the room.
-Szczawiór reports that everything is ready! Pour in? - yelled the gnome.
-Pour in! - roared the halfling - Pour in IMMEDIATELY!
-By the name of Rhundurin's beard! - shouted Vimme Vivaldi, when the doors closed behind the gnome. - I don't understand! What's going on? Where to pour in? What to pour in?
-I don't know - said Dainty - but money has to roll around, Vimme.
The text above is a crude translation of Andrzej Sapkowski's dialogue in the story "Wieczny Ogień" about The Witcher done by me.

That means, a good force of 7 axemen rushes to Lisbon.

68: Cougar Clubber runs away from it's post, afraid of Portuguese archer coming after him. Come on, Woodsman II isn't something I would risk so easily.

The downside of our attack is, our economy is hurrumphed a bit, and after I cross Portuguese borders, we will pay even more extra maintenance. I stop at 8 Axemen and go for Libraries.

69: Maneuvering units along...
70: Ditto...
71: Ditto...
72: *yawn*
73: Oho! A archer/settler pair! :lol: Free exp will belong to us if Portuguese won't retreat, as well as a free worker.
74: Alea iacta est. I cross the Portuguese border. The settler retreats to Oporto, but leaves two archers behind. However, he splits them, and I don't want to break the rhythm of our army manuvering, so I kill one of the offending archers, rising the level of our Axe to three. :goodjob:
75: Uh oh... our Tribal Villager I tried to use to peer at Lisbon. However, he runs at Portuguese Axeman! :mad: Croaker to me, even with the forest help he's kicked in the head 'til 'e's dead.
Our main force still marches to Lisbon. Peek at Oporto reveals a Swordsman.

Uummm...
Maybe I should go after growth after all. Shut up, military advisor, I dare ya! :crazyeye:
 
Why should anything happen to it? Nothing happened to it - it still reads 4 food as it should.
 
Took a look at the save. Joao has definitely been busy. :(

His iron source is the hill 1 SE of Tribal Villager, between TV and Guimaraes. Check the tile yield and you can see the plains hill with mine is yielding 6 hammers.

I am not sure if TV can pillage it without getting killed by whatever units may be in Guimaraes. TV could pillage the road in his current tile to break the network. TV would certainly be killed by the axe, though, and if Guimaraes is coastal (fog in the east) then it might not disconnect the iron anyway. Not sure what the best approach is here, but we need to cut off that iron.

Oporto is pretty heavily defended and is on a hill; I think we bypass it and send our axe stack straight to Lisbon. If Joao has 4+ units there we may not be able to take it. But we can certainly pillage everything in site, and try to disrupt him as badly as possible while building more axes. Maybe Guimaraes will be vulnerable if Lisbon is not -- razing it would remove access to the iron.

We finish Math next turn -- I think we have to chop some more axes immediately and go for a kill on Joao. We've committed ourselves to the fight, and if we make peace now Joao is going to expand and take most of the continent. Our economy will be crushed for a while, but our odds against Joao are probably only going to get worse.
 
Winth said:
second Axeman (without barracks) whipped in New York (1 pop)
Hmz, you do know the 2 pop axeman whip dont you?? Get a little production into an axeman, whip for 2 pop. Finish Axeman and nearly finish the second, mucho more effective than whipping for 1 pop.

Winth said:
Note I didn't use those trees that were labeled as prechopped.
I would have rather seen those hills chopped to get the mines = more production going too... rather than "waste" time/worker turns chopping flatlands which we "dont need"
Production ....

TV is to be a casualty of war I think... pillaging that road is important for the greater good.
Guima doesnt seem to be coastal.... tho if roads connect it to a river...

8 Axemen... sure its a nice stack... but will it measure up to Monarch standards?

Who is up?
 
Hmz, you do know the 2 pop axeman whip dont you?? Get a little production into an axeman, whip for 2 pop. Finish Axeman and nearly finish the second, mucho more effective than whipping for 1 pop.

Whipping down the 2 pop would be quite inefficient for our strategy, because it would leave our civ with exactly 0 pop. You do know how to utilize those expensive Settlers, don't you?
8 Axemen... sure its a nice stack... but will it measure up to Monarch standards?

More Axemen would mean "Somebody call for a tax collector?". We are already paying up a "nice" wage for unit upkeep. 8 Axemen is enough to make yourself hip in the eyes of girls.
 
I can see that this will be an uphill battle, but we fight! I think my plan will be to destroy as many units and improvements (iron!) as I can with my axes. We probably are going to have to drag this one out, financing our economy with pillaging. We need to isolate Joao's cities, make sure he can not reinforce them with units from another, and slowly build up enough axes for a crushing blow. I'll use most of the forests to chop axes, and liberally whip the populace for mucho axes. I think that cats are our next priority.

Other ideas? I also want to hook that gold up asap.

I'm going to play my turnset tomorrow night, so everyone can weigh in with tips and strats.
 
I can see that this will be an uphill battle, but we fight! I think my plan will be to destroy as many units and improvements (iron!) as I can with my axes. We probably are going to have to drag this one out, financing our economy with pillaging. We need to isolate Joao's cities, make sure he can not reinforce them with units from another, and slowly build up enough axes for a crushing blow. I'll use most of the forests to chop axes, and liberally whip the populace for mucho axes. I think that cats are our next priority.

We definitely need to pillage whatever we can, to weaken Joao and get a bit of much-needed cash. I think our initial priorities should be:

1) March the axe stack close enough to Lisbon to see what defenders Joao has. If we're very lucky, he may have been massing his forces in Oporto for a strike against us, and Lisbon will be lightly defended. We should consider razing Lisbon if it is weak enough to take but would leave us without troops to defend it. The site can always be resettled later, and losing it would be a huge blow to Joao.

2) Disconnect the iron. We should probably sacrifice TV to pillage the road he is standing on, cutting the iron off from Lisbon and Oporto. (Hopefully there is not another connection by river or coastline.) One less unit maintenance and supply will not hurt, either.

3) If Lisbon is too strongly defended, march the axes to Guimaraes and check defenders there. Make Joao spread his units out to defend all his cities.

4) Pillage, pillage, pillage. Iron, food sources, and especially roads. Preventing Joao from moving his troops rapidly will help us pin him down and force battles on favorable terms for us.

I think we should keep our axe stack together long enough to check Lisbon, and if not attacking it to check Guimaraes. If both are too strong, then split up to pillage, keeping at least 2 axes per pillage group for safety.

Of course, if all three of Joao's cities are too strong for our main stack, we are in very deep trouble.... :cry:

On the economy, this is going to be difficult. We need more axes, but are barely positive at 40% science. Math is one turn away -- finish it and drop the science slider to 0% to build a small cash reserve. This will support our new axes as we chop/whip them out, at least long enough for most of them to die in battle and reduce our support costs again. Pillage cash will help a little, but only a little. Capturing a city would be a big boost, if we can manage it.

Researching Construction for cats would be valuable, but I am not sure our economy will support it. A city capture would give us enough cash, probably.

Other ideas? I also want to hook that gold up asap.

To get the gold we need culture in New York. Either finish the library, or research Mysticism after Math for a monument. (Which we want anyway for happiness.) Maybe keep New York on the library until it can be whipped, with Washington building/chopping/whipping axes?
 
We really have financial problems atm :(. And Oporto is too heavily defended.
I agree that we must hope to find Lisbon, or even Guimares, less defended, to get some money. I would probably even raze the cities, and resettle them later, so we don't totally ruin our economy.

For Guimares' surroundings, it's not on the coast (there's a road going NE from it), and there's no river around. This means that by pillaging that road, we would cut Lisbon and Oporto off that Iron. On the other hand, Joao will probably rebuild it in 2-3 turns, while we lose TV. Not THAT helpful, but I would still pillage it.

As for Washington, I would whip the library for 2 pop, instead of working those grass-forest for 1:hammers:. Or maybe wait 2 turns, and whip it then with the surplus going into another Axe, to replace TV and the units we'll surely lose in Portuguese territory ...

In New York, I would whip that library now! For 3 pop! 1) it will regrow in no time, with all those food-resources, and 2) it will grow into unhappiness in 1 turn, and there's no other/better tile to work ... The surplus should go into a granary, so we can easily whip for 2 or 3 pop every 10-15 turn, before or while running Scientists. Because New York has nearly no :hammers:
 
In New York, I would whip that library now! For 3 pop! 1) it will regrow in no time, with all those food-resources, and 2) it will grow into unhappiness in 1 turn, and there's no other/better tile to work ... The surplus should go into a granary, so we can easily whip for 2 or 3 pop every 10-15 turn, before or while running Scientists. Because New York has nearly no :hammers:

New York is only size 4, so we can not whip 3 pop until we hit size 6. We'll just have to carry the unhappy citizens for a while. :(

Our economy was why I suggested dropping research to zero after Math finishes -- we will need that gold to cover short term deficits. But with luck, our unit maintenance will drop significantly when most of our axes die razing Portugese cities. :D
 
New York is only size 4, so we can not whip 3 pop until we hit size 6. We'll just have to carry the unhappy citizens for a while. :(

Ahem, I can't check the save as I'm currently busy working :mischief: ... but I could swear that yesterday evening, the button for whipping was active :confused:
That's why I suggested whipping now ...

On the other hand, I also know that you're right about 4 pop, because I know we're working Sea-Food, Pigs, Corn and that unimproved plain :confused:


Hmmm, I'll have to verify that again this evening ...
 
Playing in a starbucks, with no internet (why does it cost money to use the internet here :mad: ). I took notes on my phone, which is by the way how I am getting this to you :) .

Civ4ScreenShot0006.jpg


Anyway, without further ado, I start! pillage road. goodbye TV. decide not to attack archer S of washington, odds not good enough (59.9)

IT - math finished. masonry started (not that it matters) 0% ho! we net 12 gpt. for some reason, TV doesnt die? I fortify him, awaiting.

1 I chop the forest on both the hills. A few axes are on their way. I whip the library in NY, pop goes to 3. Axe stack moves 1E of oporto. we meet hatty.

IT - goodbye TV. destroyed by an axe, no less. NY library > axe (we need as many as we can spare.) 5 turns till gold is available.

2 I begin mining both hills beside washington. if we need more axes, I can chop some more in 4 turns. Send worker #3 to the gold to road, reaches there in next turn. (the commerce will massively help us.) Continue the stalemate in the south with the portuguese archer. 2 axes break off S to pillage the pigs next turn (which I promote with combat I), stack moves 1 NE to hill near lisbon. Axe completed in washington, heads E to portugese lands.

IT - Portuguese axe attacks from oporto! ack. I watch, cross fingers, and our axe wins! I name him "mmm....bacon" in honour of his victory, and give him cover (good for city attack!).

3 We get a measly 2g for pillaging his pigs, but the hit to his production will be worth it. axe #2 is completed, start another axe in washington. Pillage joaos mine on the hill our stack is on, get 9g. Send two units E to gold, two units N for corn. Splitting up our stack may not be the hottest idea, but I want to pillage as much as possible as soon as possible to cripple joao as much as I can. Keep sending axes east.

IT not much happens

4 Only now I notice that the road is 1 turn from completion! doh. well may as well finish it now... attack portuguese archer at P. I win!! destroy farm near lisbon. nets us 5g.

IT joao moves two archers from oporto probably to reinforce lisbon.

Civ4ScreenShot0007.jpg


5 send mmmm....bacon 1 NE towards lisbon. got to block those bastards from lisbon! put my axes in blocking positions. make him move to open ground... I keep moving those new axes towards oporto, find that joao's built a mine on his copper. well, you know what comes soon! Move axes towards guimares.

IT joao finally gets annoyed. he attacks our axe with cover on the grassland, with archers. mmm...bacon runs one archer down, then is killed by the other. REVENGE!!

6 ok this archer S of us is really annoying me. thats it. 60% odds, I attack! the RNG has been kind so far...and it continues to do so. I win!

I'm confronted with a choice:

Civ4ScreenShot0008.jpg


I decide to attack the worker. yoink! I move another axe near the damaged archer. I take out the road between oporto and lisbon, depriving the bastard of his trade route.

IT joao moves that damaged archer 1 NE to grassland. DIE!!! BWHAHAHAHHA.

7 attack that bloody archer! with 99.8 percent odds, I have to win, right? Well I do. :) Pillage that mine outside of oporto. I move the axe near guimares. We have our first target. guimares has only 2 units. soon... soon... I start the marching, leaving a token force of one axe between lisbon and oporto, to prevent moving of troops. the mine finishes, our gpt shoots up to 17.

I move that worker back, slowly, home.

IT washington completes a library. not much use now, but we can get scientists now. by hiring 3 scientists, at 0% science, we can get masonry in 8 (for mids and construction). starts an axe to be whipped next turn. what a bastard! joao moves another archer to oporto, but an axe as well. I decide to save my axe.

8 Continue moving axes to guimares. next turn :) Stop 2 axes at border of portugal, to heal. send one worker to extend road nearer to portugal, send one to connect pig near new york, send one to chop the forest near washington. (tho we can whip as well.)

IT nothin.

9 hm. 5v3 in guimares. I may as well try. first axe killed by an archer, but is 1/3HP. second axe killed by an axe, but is now 3.2/5. third axe attacks. WIN!!!!111oneoneeleven. sword is dead. 4th axe attacks, wins again. axe dead. 5th axe attacks, and obviously, wins. Guimares is dead! 53 gold is pillaged from the ruins of the city. success!! Winning axe is renamed to hatchet harry. (if you've seen lock stock and two smoking barrels, you'll know this character is vicious).

I'm ending it here to make sure that the turns are equal. It is turn 85, 750 BC. As it stands, portugal has lost a city, and is 2nd in score, while we are still dead last. oporto has only 2 units in it, and I think it should be our next target (unless it gets reinforced). We should start our SE now, and continue to accrue massive amounts of cash. What do you all think? I most probably made a few mistakes during my turnset, but the RNG was kind. I guess sometimes its better to be lucky than good :).

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Thoughts: well, we're a little short on axes (again), but as long as we keep pillaging the crap out of joao, we can slowly take his ass down. Oporto looks tasty. I've sent a few workers to extend the road to oporto. Watch out, I might have given them go-to orders (yes, I know thats not cool, but I don't think of these things until it's too late :P) Otherwise, we are researching masonry with scientists, and are still at 0%. (we have a bit of gold though, so this should change)

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